Let's talk serious SCROG

[profgrow]

thank you for responding, I need advice on when to start scrog, my girls are about 7-8 inches tall and in 3.5 gal pots. I have my screen (2x2 holes) ready to go, it's setup to be 8in above the top of my pots using cfls (I know....cid blah blah) but using what's best for my situation......my lights are inches above my girls now so do I put my screen in now and raise the lights or wait till they are tall enough to poke through screen. Links to the full history are in my sig but here are pics from a couple days ago.

My pleasure to respond, any help I can give to fellow growers, I also love to learn and sometimes these questions make me do more research I hadn't already done.

When to start screen training is kind of personal preference but here are a few guides I use before I begin.

do you have enough room to get your hands under the screen for pruning/adjusting? 8-12 inches is a good height for me but some people have more open situations and can get around to the back easier with less head room.

How many branches do you have? I personally like to top and LST my plants well before I start screen training, I will say this, I use less plants than most scroggers so I do my best to cover as much area as possible, a simple conversion to use is for ever sq ft of space you need about 8 inches of room between your screen and your medium. So, a 4 sq ft screen needs the plant to have about 32 inches of space to properly branch out and minimize scrubby little branches as filler. This is a rough estimate, my current U shaped scrog actually has the screen leaning on the bucket tops and grades up to about 10 inches on the side to give me room to trim, the screen is about 10-12 sq ft so based on that my conversion goes out the window.

I like to place my screen over my plants with about 3-4 inches of branch sticking out of the top, this way I can lay my light as close to the screen as possible and still get light penetration below for getting the lower branches up a bit. Based on your pics I would Lst and top them for another 4 weeks or so then start screen training. Do that for another 2-3 weeks and you may be ready to flower. This is just based on what I see it may not be 100% accurate.

cfls for veg are fine, I don't use them to flower but thats preference and ability, if you can't keep the area cool and ventilated CFLs are the only way to go.

Hope that helped and thanks again for catching my missteps, I'm not afraid of criticism as it only makes what I do better.

 

[legallyflying]

good info. A talented scrogger has the ability to account for stretch, especially differential stretch between side and main shoots. Meaning that when you flip and the stretch is on I stop training my lateral branches before the main shoots as they stretch at different rates. When I stop training the side branches I usually tuck the main cola under once or twice more. This will ensure that as the buds develop, they are all the same height. This would be especially important with CFL bulbs.

Its like a maze, you have to look at the screen and map out where each shoot is going to go in the near future. I also highly highly highly recommend you trim the understory like mad. You can leave the fan leaves on..they will quickly yellow and fall off anyways. But in general, any shoots or bud sites 1' or more below the top buds gets hacked. The bud sites can be attractive ...look at all those buds!! But in reality they are small and fluffy and newb growers will harvest and trim them only to come back after they dry and say "wtf is this?".

 

[thunderbay]

My pleasure to respond, any help I can give to fellow growers, I also love to learn and sometimes these questions make me do more research I hadn't already done.

When to start screen training is kind of personal preference but here are a few guides I use before I begin.

do you have enough room to get your hands under the screen for pruning/adjusting? 8-12 inches is a good height for me but some people have more open situations and can get around to the back easier with less head room.

How many branches do you have? I personally like to top and LST my plants well before I start screen training, I will say this, I use less plants than most scroggers so I do my best to cover as much area as possible, a simple conversion to use is for ever sq ft of space you need about 8 inches of room between your screen and your medium. So, a 4 sq ft screen needs the plant to have about 32 inches of space to properly branch out and minimize scrubby little branches as filler. This is a rough estimate, my current U shaped scrog actually has the screen leaning on the bucket tops and grades up to about 10 inches on the side to give me room to trim, the screen is about 10-12 sq ft so based on that my conversion goes out the window.

I like to place my screen over my plants with about 3-4 inches of branch sticking out of the top, this way I can lay my light as close to the screen as possible and still get light penetration below for getting the lower branches up a bit. Based on your pics I would Lst and top them for another 4 weeks or so then start screen training. Do that for another 2-3 weeks and you may be ready to flower. This is just based on what I see it may not be 100% accurate.

cfls for veg are fine, I don't use them to flower but thats preference and ability, if you can't keep the area cool and ventilated CFLs are the only way to go.

Hope that helped and thanks again for catching my missteps, I'm not afraid of criticism as it only makes what I do better.

I thank you very much and as I advance my career in gardening it's great to know there's a place I can come to get specific answers that I may need. +rep to you

 

[legallyflying]

Hey thunderbay, I sometimes thInk that half of he learning process is learning who's advice to listen to. Check out the plant problems section and you will see what I mean. It's the lights, it's bugs,no it's mag deficiency, flush, no wait, foliar, add b1, No you over watered... LMAO

 

[Decepticon]

best learning process is trial and error but thats just me

 

[profgrow]

best learning process is trial and error but thats just me

This is true with one caveat; Research never ever hurts.

Edit: Research never ever hurts unless the answers you get are wrong.

 

[thunderbay]

Hey thunderbay, I sometimes thInk that half of he learning process is learning who's advice to listen to. Check out the plant problems section and you will see what I mean. It's the lights, it's bugs,no it's mag deficiency, flush, no wait, foliar, add b1, No you over watered... LMAO

Tell me about it

 

[thunderbay]

I don't know if anyone been looking into my grow but I'd like opinions on my setup for scrog.....U shaped screen should not be a factor with cfls ??

https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/457315-my-setup.html

 

[profgrow]

I don't know if anyone been looking into my grow but I'd like opinions on my setup for scrog.....U shaped screen should not be a factor with cfls ??

https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/457315-my-setup.html

Checked out your setup, looks decent, you could jam more lights in there but i think that was covered (didn't read the whole thread).

You are correct, a U shape wont help any as you have multiple light sources.

If I was going to optimize this setup, and this is all based on what I can see, I would start by coating every surface in mylar then adding a few lights on the corners. Corners covered in mylar act almost like a hood. everything else looks good, fans will need to be above the canopy after it fills in. If you can manage to put the CFLs in the middle on some sort of raising/lowering system, they can almost touch the plant the whole time during flower, with proper ventilation there shouldn't be any scorching.

I'm sure most of this you have thought of, but those would be my 2 cents. Otherwise the setup looks nice, I'm not a fan of CFLs but they can be useful when you need to stay low, we all do what works best for our situation.

 

[thunderbay]

Checked out your setup, looks decent, you could jam more lights in there but i think that was covered (didn't read the whole thread).

You are correct, a U shape wont help any as you have multiple light sources.

If I was going to optimize this setup, and this is all based on what I can see, I would start by coating every surface in mylar then adding a few lights on the corners. Corners covered in mylar act almost like a hood. everything else looks good, fans will need to be above the canopy after it fills in. If you can manage to put the CFLs in the middle on some sort of raising/lowering system, they can almost touch the plant the whole time during flower, with proper ventilation there shouldn't be any scorching.

I'm sure most of this you have thought of, but those would be my 2 cents. Otherwise the setup looks nice, I'm not a fan of CFLs but they can be useful when you need to stay low, we all do what works best for our situation.

I'm able to raise and lower my lights, I put 2 6in fans on top

 

[profgrow]

Very nice.

Keep us up to speed on your grow.

 

[luv2grow]

Training day for Purp haze. She has been begging me for about a week

 

[profgrow]

Training day for Purp haze. She has been begging me for about a week

I really love that screen design, cant wait to see how it fills out.

 

[profgrow]

Here's a great buy for all of us who have been looking for an affordable aero timer, under 20 bucks and works just like the 70 dollar presets

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Repeat-Cycle-Timer-50-Sec-Intervals-Aero-Hydroponics-/220788938469?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33680bd6e5

 

[profgrow]

So, I got the 600w hood up and running with an MH, this is my first time vegging with MH and the temps are a bother, floating around 82-85 at the top of the canopy, 72-76 at the bottom. I used a cheap-o 8in in-line duct fan to vent the hood, intake and exhaust to outdoor air. If temps stay an issue this will be my first and last veg with MH, I haven't noticed any difference in growth over 72 hrs Vs T12s and they are much easier to maintain.

Here's the pics

 

[420forme]

Can someone tell me the benefit of a u shaped screen. My light is only 12" from top of plants, if I made the outside of the screen taller it seems it would put those buds even further away from the light. Do you have to have alot of distance between light and buds to make it effective?

 

[legallyflying]

Those temps are just fine for veg, especially if you have co2.

A couple suggestions, and in my typical fashion, I'm not going to be all touch feely on the subject

#1. rid rid of the utter piece of shit "fan". Those inline fans are complete garbage and that is why its hot in there. this is THE FAN you want... not pretty to look at but it has awesome bearings, is well balanced and throws just as much as fans that cost 2x as much. Someone tipped me off to them and I ended up changing all my fans to them.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-6-Inch-Inline-Exhaust-Cooling-Duct-Fan-Vent-Blower-/280278994464?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4141ee0e20#ht_1451wt_1036

It also looks like you have a complete POS hood (sorry man but no hinges for the glass ? WTF) I would put tape all around the edge of the glass/hood to seal it up. I'm quite certain your sucking in air into the hood which will hurt your overall flow. Don't know what your planting area size shape is but that is a really deep hood which means that in general it will throw a smaller pattern of powerful light as opposed to a nice even swath.

If you think that all reflectors are created equal, then sit down with a beer, or two as its a long thread but there is some AWESOME info in it: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=51325

its always strange to me that..we grow indoors and light is one of THE most important aspects but people often buy there reflectors with little actual knowledge. But seriously, get that fan bro.

If your worried about sound, but a small sheet of dyno mat on e-bay at the same time you buy the fan.

 

[legallyflying]

Can someone tell me the benefit of a u shaped screen. My light is only 12" from top of plants, if I made the outside of the screen taller it seems it would put those buds even further away from the light. Do you have to have alot of distance between light and buds to make it effective?

I would like to hear the theory on this as well. I can see it making a difference if you have cool tubes or what not but based on my lux meter readings on my hoods.. when the hood is placed in a position above the canopy to maximize spread and intensity (16" for me) the most intense light on the sides is down near the canopy. If your one foot off to the right of the hood and raise the meter towards the hood, the light reading actually decrease. This is likely due to the angle of the light reflecting out of the hood, which at least on my hoods (super sun II) is a fairly steep angle. Its a little counter intuitive, but the light meter never lies.

 

[profgrow]

Looks like I have some replies to get to, I won't quote and just answer as it goes.

The crap fan is just that, crap, i agree but its all my budget allows until my U shaped scrog harvest. I don't charge my patient setup costs so its been out of pocket for a while and the pockets are empty, thanks for the link though, I will buy that one as soon as finances allow, good to get an outside review of a fan as opposed to the seller review.

The hood was basically free with the ballast, it was 180 for the ballast or 200 with hood, seemed like a no brainer, its not a great hood and you are right, it shoots straight down. As for taping it, what type of tape should I use? wouldn't duck tape produce off gassing? The metal is warm enough to become uncomfortable if I leave my hand on it too long.

To answer the U shape question; This "severe" shape is only used in tight spaces, my current U shaped grow is in a roughly 3.5x2.5 grow area, the U shape just gives me a bit more canopy space, the high sides do lose a bit of light but it's made up by over grow area, a flat scrog with 1x400w in my space would only be about 9 sq ft, the U shape turns that into roughly 12 sq ft, the added 3 feet of grow area makes up for lack luster edges that I would most likely get from a flat scrog as well. My bulb is also uncovered, sending light about 300 degrees down/side and up a bit, a cool tube could do the same with less heat issues, I just deal with it and crank the A/C in that room, canopy temps are around 78-80.

I like using bent screens but it's really personal preference, not really necessary with a standard hood and most likely I wont use a bent screen in my 4x4 VK grow.

 

[legallyflying]

the appropriate tape for just about everything in the grow room is foil duct tape. You'll find it in the HVAC aisle at HD. It is made from very thin aluminum. Its sticky as hell, actually sticks more when it gets hot, and won't dry out and fall off with age like duck tape will.

Its pretty much the bomb. Taping ducts, sealing hoods, repairing plants, making labels, I use that shit for everything.