STAY AWAY FROM LED's!!!!!

[Clonex]

I feel like we all came to the same conclusion. Until we get more watts, per diode, LED's simply won't provide the depth of coverage (aka penetration) for commercial style grows. So we all agreed on that and this thread died for a few days....then someone comes along and says "I THINK MY LEDS OUT PERFORM A 600W HPS, THEYRE AWESOME-O" and the thread starts allllll over again....

In conclusion : LED's are very effective when put in the proper environment. Any grow utilizing tall plant that need to bud all the way down to the rockwool almost simply is NOT the environment for a panel utilizing 3w diode. Regardless of the lens angle.

Now everyone agree with me and we will all be content until next week. When someone says
LED>HPS or HPS>LED again. Then we can start from the beginning......again.

lol - yup.

 

[tokenbrownguy]

Would led be good for supplemental? If so what wattage? For a small personal grow?

 

[Samwell Seed Well]

i know i want supplemental light that only covers a 3 x 3 area at most and cost 1000 dolllars or the cheaper one that cover a 2 x2 or 1x1 , get a proper spectrum bulb

if you want new technology LOOK INTO PLASMA LIGHTNING( actaully efficient ligthing with penetration but very new)

 

[virulient]

Would led be good for supplemental? If so what wattage? For a small personal grow?

For a small, personal grow, you could use LED's to supplement OR be the main source of lighting (as long as you keep your plants semi-short). I recommend AdvancedLED, GrowLEDHydro, Blackstar, Stealthgrow, Kessil, and ProGrow. If I left a few brands off, it's not because they are bad, but the ones I listed are proven to work when given the proper chance. For supplemental lighting only, I would say Blackstar/Kessil is your best bet.


Also - Just because it says LED doesn't mean its $1000. That doesn't mean go out and get a $20 panel off eBay, but you can get the small products of the companies I just listed for a couple hundred at most. If you're only trying to supplement your HID system with LED lights to obtain a more full spectrum, there's no reason to spend $1000+. You can get a Kessil or 240w Blackstar for 200 at the most.

 

[puffenuff]

Until there are dozens of online journals being touted as "commercial grows" these guys wont be impressed. I've said it again and again, just because you haven't seen any doesn't mean they don't exist. Do you honestly think every grow is available to see? Have you ever used a top of the line led for more than one cycle? Have you ever thought that people can grow good bud with them so it must be possible to grow more good bud using more lights? Nobody has addressed my main point: why cant you scale up if you can conede to leds being good for closet grows? You have to alter your grow techniques and (gasp) even yourroom if you want to achieve good results with leds. You cant just swap out lights and expect the same results. explain to me why you cant scale up a small ledgrow into a large.

 

[virulient]

I'll answer your main point! More LED light, 50 800w diamond series panels aren't going to penetrate any better than a panel with only 1 3w diode from a diamond series. The only thing you accomplish is more 3w diodes, which improves coverage area. Since a 3w diode is a 3w diode is a 3w diode, you still have the penetration issue. No one is questions the fact the LED light work for personal grow, or even with large scale SoG grows. But since most commercial grows nowadays are growing 40"+ plants, were going to need 6w diode or larger......which we WILL get......in the future. So it stands that, for now, LED's are great for certain circumstances, but simply aren't powerful enough, per diode, to grow monsters. I feel like I've explained this at least 10 times in this post. I am a HUUUGE LED advocate. I love these lights, and I think they're doing some amazing things. But I wouldn't take down 1 of collective gardeners' 1000w HID's and replace it with an LED light WITHOUT changing grow method. It simply would not work, as long as they're 3w diodes. I don't care if you have a 3w panel or a 3000w panel, 3w diode aren't enough.

 

[Samwell Seed Well]

results impress your right, and i dont mind and neither do the three people with chronic ailments that i grow for, i use naturrally derived nutes ina organic inert enviroment and i producs enough cheaply between $1.05 and $1.30 a gram at 2400 a pound rates so you tell me whats better personal or a lot to share

when LEDs or Plasma Lighing can do that ill be your biggest advocate

 

[virulient]

results impress your right, and i dont mind and neither do the three people with chronic ailments that i grow for, i use naturrally derived nutes ina organic inert enviroment and i producs enough cheaply between $1.05 and $1.30 a gram at 2400 a pound rates so you tell me whats better personal or a lot to share

when LEDs or Plasma Lighing can do that ill be your biggest advocate

Because whats best for you is obviously best for everyone else. duh! (sarcasm)

 

[Clonex]

A large scale set up of dwarf plants in a 2foot high room , when i move into this house i'm buying me some led's.............






could not resist , apologies in advance.

 

[puffenuff]

I'll answer your main point! More LED light, 50 800w diamond series panels aren't going to penetrate any better than a panel with only 1 3w diode from a diamond series. The only thing you accomplish is more 3w diodes, which improves coverage area. Since a 3w diode is a 3w diode is a 3w diode, you still have the penetration issue. No one is questions the fact the LED light work for personal grow, or even with large scale SoG grows. But since most commercial grows nowadays are growing 40"+ plants, were going to need 6w diode or larger......which we WILL get......in the future. So it stands that, for now, LED's are great for certain circumstances, but simply aren't powerful enough, per diode, to grow monsters. I feel like I've explained this at least 10 times in this post. I am a HUUUGE LED advocate. I love these lights, and I think they're doing some amazing things. But I wouldn't take down 1 of collective gardeners' 1000w HID's and replace it with an LED light WITHOUT changing grow method. It simply would not work, as long as they're 3w diodes. I don't care if you have a 3w panel or a 3000w panel, 3w diode aren't enough.

Thanks for trying to answer my point, but I don't believe you changed my stance on this issue. You're right however in stating that adding more panels doesn't increase the penetration. But that's where altering your grow techniques come into place, just like I pointed out; there is just as much potential in a well scrogged op than one where the plants grow tall vertically without any influences. I don't even feel penetration is an issue with 3w lights, and in fact, the diamond series is no ordinary 3w light either and are more intense than the standard 3w. There are more than 1 type of 3w leds out there just to be clear, and the from my experiences, the best ones are high output, which not all companies use. In addition, diamonds actually have unique lenses over each diode adding to the output. I just harvest 5 foot tall plants...penetration was never an issue as I got solid nugs even at the lowest branch, so 40 inch plants are no problem. Of course 5 and 6w diodes will give better penetration than 3w...no argument there, but to say 3w aren't good enough just because you know there is something better down the line doesn't make sense. I honestly believe those who say it's not possible aren't willing to put forth a real effort to make it work.

 

[Samwell Seed Well]

i should also mention my patients dont pay for a thing, another perk of quality quantity, but keep on working because every new thing learned with LED's will probably be used in upcoming technologies,

 

[virulient]

Thanks for trying to answer my point, but I don't believe you changed my stance on this issue. You're right however in stating that adding more panels doesn't increase the penetration. But that's where altering your grow techniques come into place, just like I pointed out; there is just as much potential in a well scrogged op than one where the plants grow tall vertically without any influences. I don't even feel penetration is an issue with 3w lights, and in fact, the diamond series is no ordinary 3w light either and are more intense than the standard 3w. There are more than 1 type of 3w leds out there just to be clear, and the from my experiences, the best ones are high output, which not all companies use. In addition, diamonds actually have unique lenses over each diode adding to the output. I just harvest 5 foot tall plants...penetration was never an issue as I got solid nugs even at the lowest branch, so 40 inch plants are no problem. Of course 5 and 6w diodes will give better penetration than 3w...no argument there, but to say 3w aren't good enough just because you know there is something better down the line doesn't make sense. I honestly believe those who say it's not possible aren't willing to put forth a real effort to make it work.

You can "believe" anything you want lol. If SCRoG was that much better than growing monsters, then I'm sure people like collective gardener would be using the SCRoG or SoG method. I do NOT grow commercially, but have seen people attempt to grow monsters with LED's. It's not pretty.

I like the diamond series just as much as the next guy, but MOST high-end panels have the "lenses" and use the same, or extremely comparable brand, of diode. You aren't going to find many "low output" LED's in quality panels. Many of these features are feature in every main brand, and were listed as advertising. I wouldn't say a Mercedes is better than a Ford because it has A/C. Obviously they both have A/C, and obviously all the main brands (especially for penetration), it would be BY FAR the most popular LED light on the market. It's not, it's a standard, high quality, LED panel. While the diamond series may be the new model, with some new features, nothing is significant enough to say it penetrates THAT much better than a GLH or ProGrow or Kessil, etc...

With what I've seen between journals and real world experience, I wouldn't trust a panel, at the proper height from the canopy, to go more than 25-30" below said canopy. Until we can push more wattage per diode, there are simply no more "tweaks" like lens angle, individual reflectors, high output 3w's. there's nothing more they can do with 3w per diode. This is from real experiences, not from reading a grow journal, or hear-say. I'm not "too lazy" to try new shit. I HAVE tried it, and these are the results. Like it or not.


Conclusion - See my last million posts that all say the same thing.

 

[virulient]

A large scale set up of dwarf plants in a 2foot high room , when i move into this house i'm buying me some led's.............






could not resist , apologies in advance.

I know you're being sarcastic, joking around, but are you really suggesting the SoG method is "laugh-able"? I find it to actually be highly effective.

 

[puffenuff]

You can "believe" anything you want lol. If SCRoG was that much better than growing monsters, then I'm sure people like collective gardener would be using the SCRoG or SoG method. I do NOT grow commercially, but have seen people attempt to grow monsters with LED's. It's not pretty.

I like the diamond series just as much as the next guy, but MOST high-end panels have the "lenses" and use the same, or extremely comparable brand, of diode. You aren't going to find many "low output" LED's in quality panels. Many of these features are feature in every main brand, and were listed as advertising. I wouldn't say a Mercedes is better than a Ford because it has A/C. Obviously they both have A/C, and obviously all the main brands (especially for penetration), it would be BY FAR the most popular LED light on the market. It's not, it's a standard, high quality, LED panel. While the diamond series may be the new model, with some new features, nothing is significant enough to say it penetrates THAT much better than a GLH or ProGrow or Kessil, etc...

With what I've seen between journals and real world experience, I wouldn't trust a panel, at the proper height from the canopy, to go more than 25-30" below said canopy. Until we can push more wattage per diode, there are simply no more "tweaks" like lens angle, individual reflectors, high output 3w's. there's nothing more they can do with 3w per diode. This is from real experiences, not from reading a grow journal, or hear-say. I'm not "too lazy" to try new shit. I HAVE tried it, and these are the results. Like it or not.


Conclusion - See my last million posts that all say the same thing.

Yes, I can believe what I want because I draw my own conclusions based on personal experience and not by trusting the word of some little internet prick who thinks he knows everything. I'm telling you I disagree and providing firsthand experiences and you can't even acknowledge my own experiences in your response and only care about what you have (not) accomplished? You can laugh at what I think all you want, it doesn't mean shit to me, and you can try to pick apart only pieces of what I say, an excellent strategy for debate.

Actually, let me have a crack at that, except I'm going to address everything:

If SCRoG was that much better than growing monsters, then I'm sure people like collective gardener would be using the SCRoG or SoG method.
Who the are those guys? Why do I care what they do? I don't know and I don't care one bit. People, myself included, have grown with both methods and achieved nearly identical results if not better in vice-versa cases. If penetration, for some reason, is your concern with leds, then by all mean adapt your growing technique to suit that and scrog.

I do NOT grow commercially, but have seen people attempt to grow monsters with LED's. It's not pretty.
I don't grow commercially either, but I can see the logic in getting excellent results in a 2x3 space and doing the same thing but at twice the size. I don't know why that is so hard for you guys to grasp. I'm sorry you've only seen failures. Everything I do, I do it pretty but that's just my style, and if it isn't pretty the first time, I don't hang up my hat and and call it a failure. I make adjustments and make things prettier.

I like the diamond series just as much as the next guy
Glad to hear that you like them too. I love mine. I'd tell you that I'm sure you'd like it if you tried it but that would just be a lie. We both know you won't like it no matter what. You've made up your mind already.

MOST high-end panels have the "lenses" and use the same, or extremely comparable brand, of diode.
Yes, a lot of the quality panels use similar parts, but they don't have the added diamond lense. I'm not up-to-speed on what all they do, but I know they weren't on my first 3w panel by the same company and I know they perform a lot better. There are bigger diodes and special "diamond" lenses around each one that I imagine intensifies each one thus making it more powerful than my other panel.

You aren't going to find many "low output" LED's in quality panels.
True. If you do, then you're not looking at quality panels. I mentioned that because not everyone reading this thread may have been aware there are different kinds of leds.

Many of these features are feature in every main brand, and were listed as advertising.
Not really. There's still enough differences in products out there to make one feature stand out. And, there's still a lot of bad information on some of the websites of the main brands. But some are definitely worse than others.

I wouldn't say a Mercedes is better than a Ford because it has A/C. Obviously they both have A/C.
I'm glad you wouldn't say that because that's just nonsense and they should both have A/C. I wouldn't make that claim either. But I wasn't talking about general features of a panel like A/C is to a car. I was talking about the "unique" features. Pretty sure I even used that descriptive word in my post.

it would be BY FAR the most popular LED light on the market. It's not, it's a standard, high quality, LED panel. While the diamond series may be the new model, with some new features, nothing is significant enough to say it penetrates THAT much better than a GLH or ProGrow or Kessil, etc...
I never claimed it to be the most popular light or even a standard but I know it's a quality light because I use them. I'm telling you from firsthand experience, everything about it is better than my 3w including penetration. That's significant enough for me. I can tell you that when I first joined RIU nobody was even talking about advancedled, but now there's grows with them on most of the popular grow forums. That still doesn't mean they are better than any of the other lights you mentioned as I consider all of those to be quality lights as well although they are not all the same either and that's ok.

With what I've seen between journals and real world experience, I wouldn't trust a panel, at the proper height from the canopy, to go more than 25-30" below said canopy.
That's your belief, just like I have mine; however, I'm not laughing at yours: that's one of the differences between me and you. I trust my lights to penetrate all the way through the foliage to the base of the stalk between 48-60" but I would caution that the height of the light...just like with all types of lights...plays a role not only on penetration buy also on intensity. Again, that's why I suggested scrogging if someone is that worried.

Until we can push more wattage per diode, there are simply no more "tweaks" like lens angle, individual reflectors, high output 3w's. there's nothing more they can do with 3w per diode. This is from real experiences, not from reading a grow journal, or hear-say. I'm not "too lazy" to try new shit. I HAVE tried it, and these are the results.
You might be right. You never know. You seem to be the kind of person that has to see it to believe it. I'm the opposite: I believe anything is possible until proven otherwise.

Check this one out:
With what I've seen between journals and real world experience, I wouldn't trust a panel, at the proper height from the canopy, to go more than 25-30" below said canopy. Until we can push more wattage per diode, there are simply no more "tweaks" like lens angle, individual reflectors, high output 3w's. there's nothing more they can do with 3w per diode. This is from real experiences, not from reading a grow journal, or hear-say
Credibility lost (not that I think you have any to begin with). You really shouldn't contradict yourself.

I HAVE tried it, and these are the results. Like it or not.
Those are your results. Not mine. Not everyone else's. Your's and the one's you saw fail. I do not like your results as I imagine you don't either. I experience great results and I'm still absolutely, positively confident that I can continue improving upon my results with every new cycle. Growing is a learning experience and those who are truly successful at it never stop learning, are encouraged by challenges, and enjoy trying out new strategies.

Conclusion - See my last million posts that all say the same thing.
I'll pass. Especially if you're repeating yourself throughout each one. That would drive me nuts.

That's all you're going to hear from me. I'm going to bow out gracefully now. Thanks for playing. See you next time.

 

[virulient]

Yes, I can believe what I want because I draw my own conclusions based on personal experience and not by trusting the word of some little internet prick who thinks he knows everything.

I didn't read past this. I told you I was speaking on real world experience. If you can't comprehend basic sentences, AND not understand the simple logic behind my point, then you're simply not worth my time. Cute book though, I hope it was worth it.

I lied - I read the part about diamond series too. I actually own a couple of these panels....and love them. Apparently you missed the part where I said "I'm a huge LED advocate". The fact that you're still talking about 2x3 areas and larger means you can't comprehend what I said. I didn't make 1 sentence saying the drawbacks of LED's are their coverage. I am talking about the penetration. Coverage is easy...just add more diode or widen the lens angle. This is reaaaaally basic shit. If you don't understand then that's fine. Not everyone was born smart.

And now I read the rest......I would HIGHLY recommend hooked on phonics for you. Reading comprehension is NOT your strong suit. You should re-read my post. And this time pay attention. I now see why you are always in an argument with someone. You're just like FootClan!! lofl

 

[puffenuff]

I didn't read past this. I told you I was speaking on real world experience. If you can't comprehend basic sentences, AND not understand the simple logic behind my point, then you're simply not worth my time. Cute book though, I hope it was worth it.

I lied - I read the part about diamond series too. I actually own a couple of these panels....and love them. Apparently you missed the part where I said "I'm a huge LED advocate". The fact that you're still talking about 2x3 areas and larger means you can't comprehend what I said. I didn't make 1 sentence saying the drawbacks of LED's are their coverage. I am talking about the penetration. Coverage is easy...just add more diode or widen the lens angle. This is reaaaaally basic shit. If you don't understand then that's fine. Not everyone was born smart.

And now I read the rest......I would HIGHLY recommend hooked on phonics for you. Reading comprehension is NOT your strong suit. You should re-read my post. And this time pay attention.

Are you fucking kidding me? I just said penetration was not a problem for me.

 

[collective gardener]

Thanks for trying to answer my point, but I don't believe you changed my stance on this issue. You're right however in stating that adding more panels doesn't increase the penetration. But that's where altering your grow techniques come into place, just like I pointed out; there is just as much potential in a well scrogged op than one where the plants grow tall vertically without any influences. I don't even feel penetration is an issue with 3w lights, and in fact, the diamond series is no ordinary 3w light either and are more intense than the standard 3w. There are more than 1 type of 3w leds out there just to be clear, and the from my experiences, the best ones are high output, which not all companies use. In addition, diamonds actually have unique lenses over each diode adding to the output. I just harvest 5 foot tall plants...penetration was never an issue as I got solid nugs even at the lowest branch, so 40 inch plants are no problem. Of course 5 and 6w diodes will give better penetration than 3w...no argument there, but to say 3w aren't good enough just because you know there is something better down the line doesn't make sense. I honestly believe those who say it's not possible aren't willing to put forth a real effort to make it work.

Sorry the pic ended up way up there. This is the best pic I currently have showing dense growth down low. I can take some more tomorrow. The reason I don't run out and buy some LED's to try is because to conduct an accurate test, I would have to light up a whole 8x8 tray in my "test". Otherwise, there would be influence from the HPS's lighting the rest of the tray. Currently each 8x8 tray lit by 4 - 1000 watt HPS's is yielding 6 lbs with no CO2 of Pre-98 Bubba Kush...not a particular high yielder. There are 25 plants on this tray. With my current patient count, I can go as high as 32 plants in each tray (we have 3 trays). For this reason, I need plants that yield around 4ozs each of MARKETABLE buds. I have no problem purchasing enough LED to light up one tray IF I had reason to believe that there would be a a good chance of matching my current yield with my current plants count. Before forking out the $5,000+ for my own test, I would like to see better performance from LED's than I am seeing now. Perhaps you could show me some pics of your 5 foot plants, and the big ass dense lower buds.

Also, why do you come blazing in here with such a combative attitude? We're just discussing lights. I, for one, am looking forward to the day when LED's or inductive lights are an option for growers like myself. For now, there's good reason why every large scale grow you see ANYWHERE is using HID's. Do you really think we just are afraid of trying new things? You think there are a bunch of 20,000 watt LED grows out there, but the growers don't want to show them off? And your statement that we just don't want to put forth the effort to make them work is insane. If I thought I could save Thousands and thousands of $$$ making the current LED's work, I'd be all over it. I'm a money hungry bastard above all else. I'm in the op all day everyday anyway. Myself and the several other commercial growers I deal with discuss this lighting all the time. A few of these guys have tried the latest and greatest LED's, and they all say the same thing. Not quite there yet.

It's not as easy as just expanding on a little successful home grow, as you have said. We need 100% of our buds to be great. There can be no AA buds. It all must be AAA. Who cares in a personal stash home grow op...it all smokes the same. Then there's the plant count limitations, meaning we need to see X amount per plant. There's also labor considerations. 200 sq ft of perpetual scrog takes much more time to manage than my settup. I also detest having my plants locked into a location, as with a scrog.

Just don't hack on people for not running out and buying these things.

Don't forget the picks. I showed you mine...now let's see yours.

 

[virulient]

Are you fucking kidding me? I just said penetration was not a problem for me.


I don't grow commercially either, but I can see the logic in getting excellent results in a 2x3 space and doing the same thing but at twice the size. I don't know why that is so hard for you guys to grasp. I'm sorry you've only seen failures. Everything I do, I do it pretty but that's just my style, and if it isn't pretty the first time, I don't hang up my hat and and call it a failure. I make adjustments and make things prettier.

Lolzerpops. I thought you and your 2nd grade reading comprehension skills were "bowing out".

 

[virulient]

View attachment 1818789


Sorry the pic ended up way up there. This is the best pic I currently have showing dense growth down low. I can take some more tomorrow. The reason I don't run out and buy some LED's to try is because to conduct an accurate test, I would have to light up a whole 8x8 tray in my "test". Otherwise, there would be influence from the HPS's lighting the rest of the tray. Currently each 8x8 tray lit by 4 - 1000 watt HPS's is yielding 6 lbs with no CO2 of Pre-98 Bubba Kush...not a particular high yielder. There are 25 plants on this tray. With my current patient count, I can go as high as 32 plants in each tray (we have 3 trays). For this reason, I need plants that yield around 4ozs each of MARKETABLE buds. I have no problem purchasing enough LED to light up one tray IF I had reason to believe that there would be a a good chance of matching my current yield with my current plants count. Before forking out the $5,000+ for my own test, I would like to see better performance from LED's than I am seeing now. Perhaps you could show me some pics of your 5 foot plants, and the big ass dense lower buds.

Also, why do you come blazing in here with such a combative attitude? We're just discussing lights. I, for one, am looking forward to the day when LED's or inductive lights are an option for growers like myself. For now, there's good reason why every large scale grow you see ANYWHERE is using HID's. Do you really think we just are afraid of trying new things? You think there are a bunch of 20,000 watt LED grows out there, but the growers don't want to show them off? And your statement that we just don't want to put forth the effort to make them work is insane. If I thought I could save Thousands and thousands of $$$ making the current LED's work, I'd be all over it. I'm a money hungry bastard above all else. I'm in the op all day everyday anyway. Myself and the several other commercial growers I deal with discuss this lighting all the time. A few of these guys have tried the latest and greatest LED's, and they all say the same thing. Not quite there yet.

It's not as easy as just expanding on a little successful home grow, as you have said. We need 100% of our buds to be great. There can be no AA buds. It all must be AAA. Who cares in a personal stash home grow op...it all smokes the same. Then there's the plant count limitations, meaning we need to see X amount per plant. There's also labor considerations. 200 sq ft of perpetual scrog takes much more time to manage than my settup. I also detest having my plants locked into a location, as with a scrog.

Just don't hack on people for not running out and buying these things.

Don't forget the picks. I showed you mine...now let's see yours.

As always, exactly what I was trying to say, but you are 10x better with words than me. Well said CG

 

[puffenuff]

View attachment 1818789


Sorry the pic ended up way up there. This is the best pic I currently have showing dense growth down low. I can take some more tomorrow. The reason I don't run out and buy some LED's to try is because to conduct an accurate test, I would have to light up a whole 8x8 tray in my "test". Otherwise, there would be influence from the HPS's lighting the rest of the tray. Currently each 8x8 tray lit by 4 - 1000 watt HPS's is yielding 6 lbs with no CO2 of Pre-98 Bubba Kush...not a particular high yielder. There are 25 plants on this tray. With my current patient count, I can go as high as 32 plants in each tray (we have 3 trays). For this reason, I need plants that yield around 4ozs each of MARKETABLE buds. I have no problem purchasing enough LED to light up one tray IF I had reason to believe that there would be a a good chance of matching my current yield with my current plants count. Before forking out the $5,000+ for my own test, I would like to see better performance from LED's than I am seeing now. Perhaps you could show me some pics of your 5 foot plants, and the big ass dense lower buds.

Also, why do you come blazing in here with such a combative attitude? We're just discussing lights. I, for one, am looking forward to the day when LED's or inductive lights are an option for growers like myself. For now, there's good reason why every large scale grow you see ANYWHERE is using HID's. Do you really think we just are afraid of trying new things? You think there are a bunch of 20,000 watt LED grows out there, but the growers don't want to show them off? And your statement that we just don't want to put forth the effort to make them work is insane. If I thought I could save Thousands and thousands of $$$ making the current LED's work, I'd be all over it. I'm a money hungry bastard above all else. I'm in the op all day everyday anyway. Myself and the several other commercial growers I deal with discuss this lighting all the time. A few of these guys have tried the latest and greatest LED's, and they all say the same thing. Not quite there yet.

It's not as easy as just expanding on a little successful home grow, as you have said. We need 100% of our buds to be great. There can be no AA buds. It all must be AAA. Who cares in a personal stash home grow op...it all smokes the same. Then there's the plant count limitations, meaning we need to see X amount per plant. There's also labor considerations. 200 sq ft of perpetual scrog takes much more time to manage than my settup. I also detest having my plants locked into a location, as with a scrog.

Just don't hack on people for not running out and buying these things.

Don't forget the picks. I showed you mine...now let's see yours.

See, you expect me to compare 180w to your 4,000...it simply can't be done. Obviously you're going to have more dense undergrowth. I'm done here. You guys can all wait until everyone else says it's ok to grow with leds. Don't be a pioneer.