Why not pollinate your first grow to get more seeds?

[Rj41]

You people don't like being proven wrong I see. Where has common sense gone?

Go ahead, keep twisting my statements until they say what YOU WANT THEM TO SAY.

 

[moash]

moash, stop.... you keep trying to prove me wrong but you can't.

Hey, if removing branches and leaves, and flushing your soil, and any of the other eff'd up practices that reduce yield are your thing, more power to you. Keep doing that if it makes you happy.

I haven't been trying to prove you wrong.....You proved yourself wrong...
I simply stated the facts you listed were irrelevant and you keep coming back with something else to say
It more sounds like you're trying to prove yourself right...

 

[Destillat]

I'm not twisting anything man. You said seeds yield more because their nodes don't alternate until the plant becomes mature, usually around 8-10 weeks. That still doesn't mean anything.

And as for the poster before that, you're right clones don't produce more per plant than seeds, but they do produce it faster. a perpetual room will produce twice as much in any given year than straight from seed.

If you have to break down your room in a hurry, or plan on moving, It helps to have some seeds around. I'll be honest and say I've never harvested seeds before, and honestly plan on leaving that to the professionals.

 

[Destillat]

Also, producing a full room of clones from your best of the bunch will actually produce more than a handful of seeds. Cloning is an exact replica of (hopefully) an excellent phenotype. Seeds are a genetic lottery even if you know the genetic parents.

 

[slonez47]

I mean are we talking a gram difference here? lol

From what I've read in the Bible there is 25% less growth. Smaller plant less yield. Not being a dick, I'm a clone man myself. Just passing along what I've read from knowledgable sources brother. Folks can take it or not.

 

[slonez47]

Sloanz, I don't think you're understanding the term hybrid vigor correctly. You're not comparing a clone and a seed. You're comparing the original strain and the hybrid cross strain. "F1 hybrids are often bigger and more robust than either of the parent populations used in the creation of the F1 population. For example, a skunk #1 x blueberry hybrid may grow faster and yield more than either the pure skunk #1 pr blueberry population."

However, this has nothing to do with cloning. In fact, you can have perpetual harvests of an F1 hybrid mother and not only take advantage of hybrid vigor but have a more thc potent plant as I mentioned above. To recap, hybrid vigor is ONLY a term used for breeding, not cloning.

You are very correct. I quoted verbatim what I had read, and I'll be the first to say that I hope like hell what you say is true. I don't bother with seeds, and don't want to. I don't knock anyone that does, and I don't rule out doing that sometime in the future. I work from clones and if they retain the vigor I'll be happier than a punk in a pecker patch. Sorry in advance to any punks I may have insulted during this diatribe. Peace.

 

[slonez47]

LOL. Jorge Cervantes, LOL ............ sorry..... sorry...... I'm still LOLing ..........

You guys keep trying to rationalize your beliefs with nonsense. I'm sorry but you're wrong.

Fact: seed grown mj plants have 2 branches per node until the plant starts reaching 'adulthood' (for lack of the proper word).
Fact: clones, because they come from an 'adult' plant, only have one branch at each node.

Now, employ simple common sense and you'll see that I'm correct.
I'll even help you out with a hint - 2 branches vs 1 branch.

Sure, through topping and longer veg time, etc. you can get equal or better yields than a seed grown plant of the same strain, but if left alone, and with all growing factors being the same, the seed grown plant will out produce a clone every single time.

Laugh all you want to. I'll take Cervantes word over any swinging dick on this fucking site. Or where do I find your books?

 

[slonez47]

Actually they're not irrelevant, and you do have 2 branches per main stem node (at the bottom of the plan) when you flower with a seed started plant.
I've seen as many as 8 nodes with 2 branches each before the plant switches over to 1 branch at every node.

More branches=more bud sites=more total yield.

moash, you surprise me. I thought you'd have known this.

Yeah Moash! Everyone knows you get most of your bud from the bottom of the plant. HUH?

 

[slonez47]

Hybrid vigor? The plants we grow are so far removed from wild type cannabis that hybrid vigor isn't a factor. Everything we grow is a hybrid and from a long line of previous hybrids. Unless you're working with original crosses from landrace strains hybrid vigor doesn't enter into it. There are "horticultural" hybrids, like the type we're familiar with, which are crosses of two different strains. People do this to breed desirable characteristics into or undesirable characteristics out of their plants. Then there are "biological" hybrids, which are crosses of two organisms of the same species that have different characteristics due to geographic isolation. Hybrid vigor is only going to apply to the latter.

In regards to the OP's discussion, I move around a lot, so I always try to have a stash of seed to start over from. I pollinate my initial grows and keep the seed, then grow with mothers/clones from then on for convenience. If I'm fortunate enough to stay in one place for a couple years, I'll pollinate again for some fresh seed. In fact I just pollinated my current grow this week (due to a recent move). I ordered seeds last year for the first time in about five years because my stash got lost in a move, but other than that I try to be as self-sufficient as I can. Probably a result of my paranoia more than anything, but I try to keep other people (i.e. seedbanks, the USPS, etc.) out of my garden as much as possible. Coming up on 20 years growing off and on without an incident, so I guess it's served me well.

Oh, I've never kept data in my journals on branching and whatever that other guy said about seeds vs. clones and better harvest from seed, but like I said I've grown with both for ~20 years, and I call bullshit on that. My impression is that yields are (or are potentially) equal. I think people probably flower clones sooner than plants grown from seed because they are able to, that's the only reason I can think of that would lead to an impression like that.

They flower from clones sooner than seed because the clone is mature, something a seedling has yet to do.

 

[moash]

Yeah Moash! Everyone knows you get most of your bud from the bottom of the plant. HUH?

I top my plants right before they start to flower,That way I get the most from the bottom nodes.....
I don't mess with none of that "one branched node" bullshit

 

[Rj41]

I'm not twisting anything man. You said seeds yield more because their nodes don't alternate until the plant becomes mature, usually around 8-10 weeks. That still doesn't mean anything.

That means everything. More branches=more product.
I'm not making it up, it's mathematical fact.
What part of that don't people understand?

And as for the poster before that, you're right clones don't produce more per plant than seeds, but they do produce it faster. a perpetual room will produce twice as much in any given year than straight from seed.

Thank you. That's all I've been trying to say all along.

 

[Gastanker]

To grow a giant pumpkin you take a giant pumpkin plant and trim off every flower but one. Instead of twenty, five pound pumpkins you get one 100 pound pumpkin.

More bud sites doesn't necessarily mean more bud. If you have two even sized plants but one has half as many bud sites then the plant with half as many bud sites would have have twice as many calyxes per bud site and thus an equivalent amount of bud.

Just an observation but I've seem more 6 lb clones than 6 lb plants from seed. Personally I prefer seeds.

 

[Rj41]

Some of you are just being assholes now. Grow the fuck up.

 

[slonez47]

I top my plants right before they start to flower,That way I get the most from the bottom nodes.....
I don't mess with none of that "one branched node" bullshit

I hope that you did'nt miss the sarcasm in my post. It was addressed to the bottom picker that made the comment, not you.

 

[slonez47]

Some of you are just being assholes now. Grow the fuck up.

That's like the pot calling the kettle black is'nt it?

 

[moash]

I hope that you did'nt miss the sarcasm in my post. It was addressed to the bottom picker that made the comment, not you.

I understand that....
My post was all sarcasm...

 

[twoplustwo]

I see my first post has brought on quite a discussion... Being a total newbie and never having grown before (as I imagine many readers of this thread are), I think cloning might be a little out of scope for a first time grow. That, and I'd only be growing for myself so a small grow once or twice a year is all I would probably need. I won't have the setup or the need to keep a mother constantly.

Thanks to all those that replied. Outside of the discussion of clones v seeds and the benefits of each, it at least seems like a reasonable option to pollinate for seeds. Personally, if I do start growing I would be much more concerned about being self sufficient and maintaining a low profile rather than making a profit or being in a hurry for a big harvest.

 

[bboybojo]

I think the big point here is that when you clone you know what you are getting genetically, and even more importantly you know you are getting females. Fuck taking care of a seed for over a month just to find it is a male, that takes up grow room space which is limited for many people.
Pollinating is good to get a cache of seeds, but imo only for the purpose of getting mothers later down the track.
As for # branches, I can't comment on the alternating vs. 2 at each node.
But as it has been said, more sites doesnt mean more bud, it depends on your canopy and light profile. a little topping and training and you can get the most out of any plant--seed or clone.

 

[Phaeton]

I started with 200 seeds and spent most of a year narrowing it down to 5. Did 3 grows with all 5 and then picked the best.
I am on my fourth year with this bagseed sativa, so it was worth the time.

All this means is I had a 1 in 200 chance of getting this plant from a seed, 1 in 40 of getting a member of the finalists.

Four years of getting the best plant out of 200 seeds every single grow, and yes, they grow better and faster than the original seed.

If there is a smokable bud on top of the plant it was grown correctly.

Some folks read a book and get a notion, and when others that have hand's on experience rather than book read minconceptions correct them....well, we have been seeing the result. Downright silliness from one who doesn't even grow.

 

[Rj41]

Raz me all you want. My lower branches get 4 to 5 feet long, sometimes longer, with LOTS of flower production. It would be stupid to remove them. Maybe cutting off lower branches and leaves works for someone growing small plants indoors, but it's counterproductive to what the big boys do.