The "I don't starve my plants before harvest" thread

[Harrekin]

Also just another point. When you do a Preharvest flush and your leaves are beginning to yellow, you ARE NOT causing the plant to consume excess nutrients, what you are actually doing is making the plant cannibalise its own structures in order to feed newly grown material. So your point about excess nutrients is void, as yellowing leaves from deficiency is a sign of a lack of nutrients,not a sign of usage of an excess.

 

[Gastanker]

So organically fed plants have no store of mineral ions? I think with all due respect you're misunderstanding how it works. With organics microorganisms break large organic molecules down into their constitutent elements which are then taken up by the plant in the same manner as synthetic/chemical nutrients (as on a molecular scale they are the same chemicals). The only difference between the two is the speed of delivery...so how is it that accumulations in tissues as youve said before doesn't occur with organics?

And by saying "used up" immediately can you elaborate on that statement? How exactly does the plant "use it up" and how does this differ between organics and chemical nutes?

Used up = absorbed by the plant out of the soil. You understand how CEC works right? My amendments are broken down into ions which either attach themselves to soil particles or travel through the soil solution to my plants at which point they are absorbed. Once the plant has absorbed the ion it can no longer be leeched out of the soil solution. The ions attached to the soil particles similarly will not be leeched out of the soil solution.

So with water soluble chemical nutes if i dose 1 cup and then flush my soil thoroughly I can flush out 1 cup. If I don't flush it out it sits there in the soil solution (or dehydrated in a crystalline salt form) till absorbed. If I put the equivalent amount of N,P,or K as an organic amendment I can flush all I want and the amendment will still be there. A small portion of the currently available ions in the soil solution will be washed away but that is all and the amount that is washed away is quickly replaced.

 

[k0ijn]

This why I giggle at some of the "organic" things I hear. Synthetic chemicals??? BRING IT ON!!!!

The guy I usually score a sack off of had some funky looking dope a few weeks ago. He said, "It looks that way because it's grown with only organic fertilizers." He was told it by someone who was told it by someone.... ha ha

I'm starting my "flush" tonight!!!!

I'm nearing the end of week 8. I have 5 different strains going and all have "medium" to "long" (whatever that means from the attitude website) flowering periods. I treat all of them exactly the same and they all look vibrant and healthy except one. I have one Orange Bud plant. For the last week this plant has been having yellowing fan leaves that also turn orangish red. The rest of the plant and the leaves directly around the buds look nice and green. I have been chalking it up to fall time coming in the plants life.

Is this normal? Do I feed some N? This is what the leaves look like. The buds look great and still have clear/milky trichs.

You have deficiency, but it's common in late flowering.
What are your PPM levels?
And may I say the leaf is quite beautiful, the blending of the colours looks nice.

 

[Harrekin]

Used up = absorbed by the plant out of the soil. You understand how CEC works right? My amendments are broken down into ions which either attach themselves to soil particles or travel through the soil solution to my plants at which point they are absorbed. Once the plant has absorbed the ion it can no longer be leeched out of the soil solution. The ions attached to the soil particles similarly will not be leeched out of the soil solution.

So with water soluble chemical nutes if i dose 1 cup and then flush my soil thoroughly I can flush out 1 cup. If I don't flush it out it sits there in the soil solution (or dehydrated in a crystalline salt form) till absorbed. If I put the equivalent amount of N,P,or K as an organic amendment I can flush all I want and the amendment will still be there. A small portion of the currently available ions in the soil solution will be washed away but that is all and the amount that is washed away is quickly replaced.

So considering you can't flush organic amendments from soil, how is it that organically fed plants don't taste/burn harsh? They are being fed right the way to harvest...exactly the same as our chemically fed plants and Iv stated already that they feed the same ions regardless of chemical or synthetic.

 

[Samwell Seed Well]

lets see whats the difference between fertilizers that are chelated soluble salts and " large organic molecules"(organic derived nutrients) that are broken down . . .. . . . . . . . . .\

isn't the difference like you stated delivery, the process that absorbses chelated salts and the process where minerals(not organic molecules . . . .essential macro and micro nutrients are for the most part not organic and are minerals) are converted into similar macro and micro nutrients that are able to be absorb, isn't that why there is a difference in chelated soluble nutrients and organically derived nutrients . . . .

I mean

N-is a mineral, not organic
P-is a mineral, not organic
K-is a mineral, not organic

and the list goes on , so whats the difference in organics and water soluble nutrients again, i thought it was delivery and the process at which the nutrients are converted to be absorbed easier

and again to go back to the point a faded(lack of essential nutrients) plant is a flushed plant . . . .. . . . . . organic or not


to answer your proposed question, not everyone's sense of taste and smell are the same

 

[SirLancelot]

Yea I was gonna say that orange is pretty sweet lookin! what strain is that? and YES I heard it again from Harriken Canibalism!! that is what it is doing when it turns yellow and wilts away. I mean im just going off of my experience in the garden and whenever things are yellowing out and wilting that means their dying, I like getting my fruit (yes I know it's not a fruit on a bud plant, but the end product all the same) from green healthy plants not wilting plants. My green beans always taste best off of a healthy plant. Right right right comparing row crops with MJ. If im wrong well Im wrong, I just prefer my plant not to suffer, I like to spoil them and let them stay nice a green and healthy.

 

[Gastanker]

So considering you can't flush organic amendments from soil, how is it that organically fed plants don't taste/burn harsh? They are being fed right the way to harvest...exactly the same as our chemically fed plants and Iv stated already that they feed the same ions regardless of chemical or synthetic.

You will never have the extreme excess that promotes the 400-16000% increase in nutrient storage - simply cannot reach the same levels - the soil biology prevents it from happening; as the levels rise the process slows... It is really really hard to burn a plant with organic amendments as well...

Essentially the organic amendment approach has built in fuzzy logic - if the nutrients get extreme the process releasing them slows, as they are used up it increases.

 

[Harrekin]

You will never have the extreme excess that promotes the 400-16000% increase in nutrient storage - simply cannot reach the same levels - the soil biology prevents it from happening; as the levels rise the process slows... You can't burn a plant with organic amendments either...

Yes you can, it's not as easy as with readily absorbable nutrients but of course you can burn a plant with organics. Time for you to go Google and learn some more.

 

[Gastanker]

Yes you can, it's not as easy as with readily absorbable nutrients but of course you can burn a plant with organics. Time for you to go Google and learn some more.

I immediately changed that - of course anything is possible. It is really really hard. I have never seen anyone do it. And Im talking organic amendments. Bat guano for instance is a water soluble organic nutrient which is not the same. I have seem super super fresh (same day fresh) steer manure shock a plant once but it never burnt - that's one of the hottest amendments I know of and no one I know would use fresh steer manure.

 

[hempknightt]

I just prefer my plant not to suffer, I like to spoil them and let them stay nice a green and healthy.

...Untill i cut them in half at the waste, hang them upside down until they are dead, and stuff their corpse into a jar for a month before ultimately lighting them on fire and inhaling them into my lungs.

Yeah I always thought it was sad that people treat their plants like babies then at the very end starve them for two weeks then cut off their light and then well anyways... The life of a MJ plant is a sad one indeed.

Also i dont believe in flushing but i do think a dark period for a day before harvest is good.

 

[Harrekin]

I immediately changed that - of course anything is possible. It is really really hard. I have never seen anyone do it. And Im talking organic amendments. Bat guano for instance is a water soluble organic nutrient which is not the same. I have seem super super fresh (same day fresh) steer manure shock a plant once but it never burnt - that's one of the hottest amendments I know of and no one I know would use fresh steer manure.

So by your logic some organics need to be flushed and others not? No offense man, but you're walking all over yourself.

 

[Gastanker]

So by your logic some organics need to be flushed and others not? No offense man, but you're walking all over yourself.

Some organics are water soluble and some are not. Really simple. Go to your local hydro shop or nursery and look at the back of the organic products, most will state what % is water soluble and what % is not.

Primarily Non water soluble**** -
Alfalfa meal
Cotton seed meal
All manure
Blood meal
Bone meal
Kelp meal - there is an exception - you can find premineralized water soluble kelp meal
Green sand
Feather meal
...

Most everything other than the guanos. If add too much N/P through guano you can flush it out - the N/P in guano is already an ion (ammonium oxelate, urate, and phosphates, all salts and salts = ion). You cannot flush out alfalfa meal - the nitrogen in alfalfa meal is tied up in the cellular material, this material needs to be broken down before the nitrogen is in an ionic form making it accessible to the plant and able to be flushed away.

Let me put it this way - I could mix 2 lbs kelp meal, 2 lbs cotton seed meal, 2 lbs alfalfa meal and grow a plant in the mixture with nothing else added. The plant wouldn't do well as it would be missing quite a bit but it isn't going to burn - and no none of this material will flush through my smartpot.

**** You can premineralize organic amendments. Bottles organic lines are preminerized organic amendments - they have taken the raw amendment and exposed it to bacteria (or a chemical process) in order to convert the active material into an ionic water soluble form that is immediately available for uptake.

 

[Harrekin]

Their form in the soil is of no relevance to the discussion, I'm amazed you think it does.

The fact is the plant uptakes the same ions from organic or chemical, therefore flushing should be necessary for both...maybe even more so with organic because it continues to feed the plant until harvest.

The people who have actually tried both flushing and not flushing have said its pointless...have you tried both?

 

[Gastanker]

Their form in the soil is of no relevance to the discussion, I'm amazed you think it does.

The fact is the plant uptakes the same ions from organic or chemical, therefore flushing should be necessary for both...maybe even more so with organic because it continues to feed the plant until harvest.

The people who have actually tried both flushing and not flushing have said its pointless...have you tried both?

They are all different ions... NH4NO3 is not the same as NH3 which is not the same as C[SUB]2[/SUB]H[SUB]8[/SUB]N[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]4....[/SUB]

They get broken down into the same ions...

The form plays a huge role. We are talking about the amount of available nutrients and the form the organic nutrients are in defines the amount that is available; 1 lb of 2-0-0 alfalfa meal is .02lbs of nitrogen but not .02lbs of nitrogen in the absorb-able form NH4 until processed by bacteria, before the nitrogen is processed it is essentially irrelevant except that it can at one point be converted. You cannot have super high levels as the soil biology will not allow it. Did you read these and look at the chart?

Do you disagree with what they are saying?

Yes I have compared the two. I have grown chemmy bud and I can taste the difference.

 

[Afka]

Flushing helps the plant rid itself of chlorophyll it no longer needs at the end of it's life cycle. As the chlorophyll breaks down, it reveals the carotenoid and anthocyanin pigments hidden beneath, given plants their gold, orange, yellow, purple and blue hues late in it's life cycle.

Excessive nitrogen, or elevated salinity during the end life cycles of the plant can prevent it from going through it's natural senescence and the plant will have greener vibrant leaves which may not senesce properly. While this has nothing to do with potency, it means you will have lots more chlorophyll.

WHICH BRINGS US TO THE IMPORTANT POINT: If you know how to cure properly, you can avoid flushing and harvest bright green plants and remove the harsh chlorophyll burn many people equate to "nutrients". In hydro, you're better off tapering down the solution ppm until they reach a mature point and only then should you quit adding back nutrients. FLUSHING or natural SENESCENSE make curing much easier and more effective, the chlorophyll will have begun decomposing during the ripening phase, instead of after chopping.

 

[watchthethrone]

Do you think, or do you personally flush the plant every 4 weeks? Not talking about pre-flowering, just during growing. I'm talking about a hydroponics system.

 

[wbd]

Flushing helps the plant rid itself of chlorophyll it no longer needs at the end of it's life cycle. As the chlorophyll breaks down, it reveals the carotenoid and anthocyanin pigments hidden beneath, given plants their gold, orange, yellow, purple and blue hues late in it's life cycle.

Excessive nitrogen, or elevated salinity during the end life cycles of the plant can prevent it from going through it's natural senescence and the plant will have greener vibrant leaves which may not senesce properly. While this has nothing to do with potency, it means you will have lots more chlorophyll.

WHICH BRINGS US TO THE IMPORTANT POINT: If you know how to cure properly, you can avoid flushing and harvest bright green plants and remove the harsh chlorophyll burn many people equate to "nutrients". In hydro, you're better off tapering down the solution ppm until they reach a mature point and only then should you quit adding back nutrients. FLUSHING or natural SENESCENSE make curing much easier and more effective, the chlorophyll will have begun decomposing during the ripening phase, instead of after chopping.

This is the most believable of any explanation I've heard yet. I'm too lazy and just don't care enough about all of the science behind this debate to check it out, but I'll be interested to see what kind of replies you get.

If I understand you correctly, you're basically saying flushing doesn't really matter one way or the other, if anything it's a head-start on the benefits you'll get from a proper cure anyhow. Which is exactly what most people say who actually took the time to compare flush/no flush with a proper dry and cure.

 

[hempknightt]

If there is no difference between flushing and not flushing wouldnt flushing be better just because your just giving it water and saving nutes/money? I would think that not flushing would mean bigger yields.

 

[SirLancelot]

If there is no difference between flushing and not flushing wouldnt flushing be better just because your just giving it water and saving nutes/money? I would think that not flushing would mean bigger yields.

if $3.50 matters too you. (Im guestimating but we use a couple teaspoons I mean what does that break down per bottle... not much really)

and afta that's interesting thanks for the info! just caught on one part. " Flushing helps the plant rid itself of chlorophyll it no longer needs at the end of it's life cycle. As the chlorophyll breaks down, it reveals the carotenoid and anthocyanin pigments hidden beneath, given plants their gold, orange, yellow, purple and blue hues late in it's life cycle."

I just had an LA confidential finish that was COMPLETELY purple all leaves, stems even my buds in the curing jar look almost black their so dark purple. I had a blue widow that was mostly purple as well. but I don't flush so the chlorophyll wouldn't have broken down and would still be there in the leaves.but my leaves are purple not green, I thought the blue and purple hues were due to colder temps?

 

[Afka]

Declining environmental factors can also help a plant along into senescence, the act of retrieving stored compounds and shedding their leaves in fall.

Also, flushing is not obligatory for this to happen, as you can simply lower your feeding schedule, or start watering with plain water during ripening (without necessarily creating massive runoff aka "flushing") The plant will eventually stop taking up Nitrogen on it's own, it's got plenty of reserves in it's leaves you want to start using up. If you time it right, you should have no yield or quality robbing deficiencies.

Another discussion point could be chelated highly soluble synthetic nutrients that aren't organically synthesized, having large amounts of these molecules in the water solution compared to natural micro-ecosystems in the rhizosphere could significantly affect taste.

But really, it's all in the cure.