jumpin' buffalo
Member
This is one thing that supporters of Israel conveniently overlook. And that is that when Israel attacks Gaza it frequently deliberately makes sure that there's civilian casualties.
Israel's cost to the American people estimated to be a staggering $2 trillion
- Thread starter jumpin' buffalo
- Start date
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
That is a huge pile of steaming horse shit....
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
THEY don't want you to know 'the truth'.
Israel's warcrimes in the 2009 operation 'Cast Lead' were widely documented by various international humanitarian organizations. The entire operation was essentially a war crime, as the fourth most powerful army in the world attacked a couple of million malnourished civilians trapped behind an illegal barrier wall Israel is building, with American money.
Well, actually they attacked Hamas, but killed @ 1400 civilians in the process.
Nine Israelis were killed.
What do those numbers tell you about the nature of the conflict?
Think about it. We may not be talking about a fair fight here. More like a turkey shoot. More like one side with heavy weapons kicking the living shit out of a bunch of mainly unarmed civilians. Real heroes, the IDF. They haven't fought a real war in years, they're mainly used as the front end of Israel's ongoing colonization of the Palestinian territories, where they terrorize and harass the indigenous population and defend the various new encampments of extreme rightwing Jewish settlers. Who are usually European/Asian or American Jews, actively colonizing another people's land and heavily armed themselves. Feel free to look up ongoing persecution of indigenous Palestinians by extremist settlers. There's a lot of material there.
Anyone remember the Mavi Marmara? The IDF at its best: butchering unarmed pacifists from helicopters and speedboats.
People around the world were disgusted by incidents like the repeated use of white phosphorus munitions fired from helicopters into narrow streets packed with fleeing CIVILIANS, a war crime if you follow the Geneva Conventions. People around the world were horrified by reports of hospitals being shelled by IDF tanks - IDF maps distinguish civilian infrastructure from legitimate military targets. There were confirmed reports of IDF troops using Palestinian civilians as human shields during door-to-door operations, and entire families were killed in their homes. I won't bother with footnotes, just hit Wikipedia. The truth is out there. Its just that North Americans have been heavily propagandized by an extremely effective lobby. It always blows me away when I'm over there, listening to people there saying white is black and black is white with such heartfelt conviction. They haven't a fucking clue.
One of the chief aims of the propaganda has been to completely obscure the core truth of Israels' current modus operandi, which is to drive the Palestinians from the shrinking rump of what was supposed to be a viable and contiguous state. Take a look at Israel's shifting borders since it unilaterally willed itself into existence - against the loud objections of the indigenous Arab populations.
That map is worth a thousand words, and reveals the core 'problem' of the Middle East.
No, The hard truth is that Israel, under cover of 'defending itself' from scary towelheaded brownskinned Muslim terrorists who want to 'drive Israel into the sea' is engaged in doing precisely that: driving the Palestinians from their postage stamp of a Bantustan. They've done a good job of convincing you that its the crazy Muslims that surround them that are causing all the violence. But the truth is the violence is the natural product of their ongoing expansion into OTHER PEOPLE'S ALREADY OCCUPIED LANDS. What is the saying: 'Methinks he doth protest too much' - that's Israel whining about Palestinian 'terror'.
There is a clear if unstated policy to so degrade the Palestinian's quality of life and to so disrupt their attempts to run a functional economy that they emigrate. 'Accidentally' killing 13 civilians while dropping a one ton bomb on an apartment building in a crowded city to assassinate one ancient, wheelchair-bound enemy for example - Sheik Yassin I beleive - is entirely OK with the Netanyahu regime.
To conflate Israel with 'Jewishness' is a sophomoric error. Anyone who knows anything about Judaism - and I know very little, though I am part Jew myself - appreciates there are many of that faith including some of the more religous branches that are vehemently opposed to the Israeli state, considering it a blasphemy and an erroneous, literalist interpretation of Jewish scripture. While the majority of the current colonial population are Jewish, historically the land has been shared, usually peacably, among various communities: Arameans, various Christian sects, various Muslim strains, a Jewish minority, etc.
I must say I'm disappointed to see Uncle Buck wading in on the wrong side here: dude, you've been a marvel to behold but this is a serious misstep, a blind spot, if I may in your normally daunting sagacity. You should revisit the issue and address the facts of the matter in a genuinely non-partisan way, and distance yourself from the rabid nonsense peddled across North America - and Europe too, thanks to lingering German guilt. The Israeli state is an affront to the populations of the region, who lived happily with their Jewish brethren for millenia.
A lightbulb may go off in your head, as you suddenly realize WHY Arabs across the middle east are so incensed by the crimes perpetrated by this violent, expansionist, FOREIGN colony that suddenly appeared in its midst a few decades ago. They have a point! Israel's longterm future is dodgy: demography, the fact that the US is a waning power that will one day be unable to run cover for its crimes at the UN or funnel billions of dollars of weapons to it. Sooner or later it won't be the ONLY nuclear armed power in the region. Indeed, that's the only reason its been able to swagger about so confidently up till now. If Iran gets nukes though, Israel loses its status as principal bully and will start having to behave properly and get along with its neighbours, instead of trying to destabilize them and steal their shit.
And finally, comparisons with the Nazis are legit, though I think they're best avoided. Considering much of Israel's founding Jewish population were fresh from the horrors of the camps and Nazi pogroms, its no surprise they should be inordinately concerned with security and defending themselves. Nor is it so strange to find them behaving like their tormentors, its a widely noted phenomenon, that the abused grows up - to become the abuser. The father beats the son, who goes on to beat his own kids - its what they know.
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
Funny how your account of all these atrocities neglects to mention the hundreds of rockets lobbed into Gaza (over 200 this year alone) from those civilian areas.
Why dont the palestinian people rise up and decry attacks from their neighborhoods that lead to retaliation?
You are as partisan as the Israeli's are...
Why dont the palestinian people rise up and decry attacks from their neighborhoods that lead to retaliation?
You are as partisan as the Israeli's are...
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
By the way Merowe,
The leadership of Palestine's goal is to wipe Israel off of the map and kill all its people.
What bargaining point do you think Israeli should start from? Should they ask the Palestinians if they would be happy only killing 1/2 of the Israeli's?
How do you even start negotiating with an enemy that only wants you dead? You start from half dead and hope he agrees to only 1/4 dead?
The leadership of Palestine's goal is to wipe Israel off of the map and kill all its people.
What bargaining point do you think Israeli should start from? Should they ask the Palestinians if they would be happy only killing 1/2 of the Israeli's?
How do you even start negotiating with an enemy that only wants you dead? You start from half dead and hope he agrees to only 1/4 dead?
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
as i have states, the first thing i think of when i think of israel are hare krishnas, jehova's witnesses, and mormons.
i had no idea that there was simply a wrong side and a right one, end of story. however, if i am on the wrong side, and i may very well be, i don't mind. i am often wrong. life goes on.
the way i see it, israel would have no need to be militant in the least if their neighbors didn't make it their stated goal to wipe them off the face of the earth. that kind of thing would put me at attention as well.
fenderburn84
Well-Known Member
Hey merow as a member of the IDF a few years back. I can say you are a fool, and have no idea the heavy price attached to every single civilian casualty or death. There is no right side with these people unclebuck its all my way or the highway. They can do whatever they want because they are fighting evil Israel. All sense goes out the window with these mindless drones.
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
Are you going to deny that White Phosphorous Rounds were fired into densely populated civilian areas? That entire families were wiped out from their apartments being shelled by tanks? How is that justified?
I must say 1000+ kills to 9 deaths is a much better kill/death than Iv even managed online, doesnt scream "values civilian life" to me tho.
fenderburn84
Well-Known Member
Hey what the fuck are you talking about? I don't mean to be a Dick but really dude? If you got something to say say it. I have said many times let's debate it and like a pussy you go quiet. And now again you come talking about shit that has nothing to do with anything I said. Go fuck yourself. You wanna have a real discussion you know where to find me. But don't come out with this half thoughts thrown in the wind bullshit.
And here comes the hasbara spin! Like all the propaganda supporting the Israeli colonialists, this one - which I'm sure you've trotted out a thousand times - dissolves to nothing on close inspection, you should check your facts. Palestinian 'rockets' are little more than clumsy homemade fireworks. They can't be steered and don't usually hit anything. They've killed a grand total of 13 Israelis since the 'attacks' began in 2001. Quite the slaughter, eh? How many Palestinian children have Israeli snipers killed in the same time frame?
fenderburn84
Well-Known Member
This from the German. How many Palestinian rockets have you seen? I've seen a few and to call them fireworks is nuts. Also let's not forget the suicide bombings, or were those just pretend as well? Also let's not forget yeshiva shootings and bombings. But they were little israelis so who cares right? As long as the precious Palestinians don't have to pay for their aggression its all good right? As for the civilians you seem to belive we went hunting for, when your government declares war on a country, as hezbohla did, you kind of lose all credibility as this victim state. Also to imply we go out and try to hurt people your nuts, while with the IDF we went on raids and do you know what our biggest hinderance was? It was that we would tell the enemy where we were coming to fight, and they would flood the area with kids. This didn't stop them from opening fire it only stopped us from shooting into a crowd.
More of this endless propaganda! Seriously, you have the internet in front of you - try backing up this garbage. You can't. If you want to gauge the true opinion of the Palestinians read the charter of the PA or Hamas. The latter refuses to 'recognize' the colonial state - they're understandably a bit pissy about being kicked off their ancestral lands so a bunch of white settlers from Brooklyn can live there, go figure. But both have repudiated such absurd claims. Even if they hadn't, they are not in a position to support such rhetoric with action. Its mainly an expression of frustration and anger. Its normal to be frustrated and angry when you are being driven from your land. By the fourth most powerful army on the planet. Absolutely normal. I'm surprised you can't see that. But then, you'd have to actually consider the Palestinians as normal human beings no different than you or I. That's CRAZY TALK!
As a member of the IDF, I expect you to uncritically spew racist Israeli propaganda. Why am I not impressed?
As for the 'heavy price attached to every single civilian casualty', I invite you to view the video of the young American Rachel Corrie being run over by a bulldozer as she nonviolently demonstrated against the demolition of another Palestinian home. Multiply by some tens of thousands and...I guess Israel has deep pockets!
fenderburn84
Well-Known Member
As a member of the IDF I would, rightly so consider you a moron, you know why the world has not stepped in right? Because its all a zionist conspiracy. Those dead Jews mean nothing compared to those Palestinian martyrs right. Maybe you should lay off the Islamic revolution websites and dabble in the truth for awhile.
'This from the German.' Whoa, snappy comeback there! Couple of points: in the postwar period Germany has been a stalwart friend of the Israeli colonial project, supporting it with billions of euros. Feel free to research that. They have a bit of a guilt complex over the war. They should get over it already. I ain't dissing the Holocaust, just observing that they're incapable of objective judgement under the circumstances.
I'm Canadian by the way, not German so you'll have to come up with a different 'insult'. We did turn that boatload of Jewish refugees away in the second world war. You could maybe work that up into something.
Its nice that you can list all these various attacks on the Israeli civilian population. You're strangely silent on the far more numerous Israeli killings of Palestinian CIVILIANS. You probably have no idea. You've probably never thought to check - just swallowed the hasbara whole.
I haven't seen any Palestinian rockets. I have seen some of the millions of cluster bomblets Israel scattered across southern Lebanon at the end of their last invasion of their northern neighbour. More evidence of the trouble the IDF takes to avoid civilian casualties. I also watched a lot of clips of Apache gunships firing phosphorus into populated areas and civilians fleeing in terror. I note that the Palestinians have no army or air force with which to defend themselves.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-commander-we-fired-more-than-a-million-cluster-bombs-in-lebanon-1.197099
As for all this talk of 'Palestinian aggression' : the fourth largest army in the world, armed Israeli settlers actively colonizing newly seized Palestinian territory - and you want to talk about Palestinian aggression?
Perhaps you missed this the first time I posted it. Its sort of a map of Palestinian aggression. Yep: they sure seem pretty aggressive to me!
And finally: much of the criticism of Palestinian tactics studiously avoids dealing with the fact that they're up against a large modern army, hopelessly outgunned and have to come up with different and devious guerilla strategies to challenge the ongoing THEFT OF PALESTINIAN LAND. (see map above). I'm sure they'd like to go toe to toe with the IDF, but until they're allowed an army to defend themselves with, it would be like a Zulu army of spearthrowers against Maxim guns. Pretty fucking ugly.
The violence would stop IN AN INSTANT if Israel abandoned its colonizing activities. I'll say that again. Its important.
The violence, which many in the west project upon the indigenous Arabs, would cease immediately if the Israelis stopped the relentless efforts to force them from their ancestral lands. THAT and THAT alone is the source of the violence. While the logic of this perspective is inescapable, I expect you will struggle with it for some time yet. But it provides the best fit with an evenhanded appraisal of the conflict.
The fact is the Israeli state, with its vastly superior military, has never once paused in its colonization of Palestinian land, though Palestinian calls for a halt to all such activities have been consistent from the start. The ugly reality is that the Israeli state consistently PROVOKES violence - the historical record will bear me out here so spare me more hasbara about Palestinian violation of ceasefires etc - because this provides it with the cover it needs to maintain its expansion. The Palestinians are attacking us! they shout as they roll over their olive groves, blow up a few more homes, build another wall that cuts off a village, takes another orchard, destroys another well.
Rather than attempting to derail the discussion with irrelevant and childish arguments about 'zionist conspiracy' and the like, which ought to be beneath you - I don't have a shaved head, there is no Swastika tattoo on the back of it, in a few weeks I will join the massive anti-Nazi demonstrations held here in Dresden to protest rising neo-fascism, as I do every year - and man do we kick their butts sometimes! - I invite you to address some of the points I have raised. Which you haven't, really.
I defy you, for example, to provide an acceptable explanation for the existence of Israeli colonies on Palestinian land.
Why, if it is truly interested in peace, is Israel still building colonies on Palestinian territory?
Good luck with that.
I'll leave it there, pending a response to that ONE SPECIFIC QUESTION. I have to get on with my day. Have a good one!
fenderburn84
Well-Known Member
My thoughts exactly. And I don't care where you came grime you canuck. I'm a German Jew, what do you want, q cookie. You can pull up a world of Bullshit online. Any idea that the Palestinians would accept peace shows how ignorant you are here. Who has broken EVERY peace treaty? It wasn't the guys with the star on their flag. You have no idea the amount of insanity you spew. You speak of Lebanon, they attacked Israel. In the real world you do not stand idley by while someone tries to kill you. I can go search and find just as many Palestinian atrocities, usually perpetrated by their own. Is it israels fault if the enemy they face has no moral code? If the USA was at war, and the attacker told my family to get out of town they would, the Palestinians send their children to the war zones for the very reason of demonizing the enemy and earning the pity of worthless small minded pricks such as yourself.