Why Should I Vote for Obama?

[mame]

sup guys!

The problem with the health care industry and allowing the invisible hand of the market to control costs is that people dont give a shit how much their healthcare costs. Not only that, but most people have no idea what a fair price would be even if they did care. Meanwhile, insurance companies only focus on minimizing costs to them and doctors to some extent are focused on increasing costs to benefit their hospital or practice. The problem, put simply, is that the invisible hand of the market doesn't work in every case. This is one of them. Healthcare as an industry lacks real competition in a market environment. There is not a single example of a working healthcare market devoid of government intervention in the world. Meanwhile, programs like those found in the Eurozone and even in the US (Medicare) are achieving higher quality of care at a lower cost overall with few(read:less) downsides as compared to more market-oriented approaches(like the US system prior to Obamacare).

Single payer systems give all the leverage to a single party (a government entity) and said party uses that leverage to control costs. Socialism? I guess. But the markets are NOT perfect, which is why there is an entity in place set to intervene in the first place(you know... for the people, by the people?)... One can argue that the US government may be inherently corrupt and broadly incapable, and that'd be a legit argument in most people's minds... But most consumers lack the needed knowledge to make informed, economically efficient choices within the healthcare industry and because of that, market based solutions are largely inneffective. Obamacare does an OK job I guess, by setting up exchanges so that each individual consumer can compare and contrast healthcare plans as well as costs and that's at least an honest attempt at setting consumers up to make informed decisions - but as of now, single payer systems have shown to be the most effective delivery/cost control method for healthcare and the offered alternative (repealling Obamacare and relying on the private sector to deliver care) is a step backwards. So...

 

[OGEvilgenius]

Unless you believe in the executive having no checks and balances and believe in military dictatorships, probably you should not vote for Obama.

 

[OGEvilgenius]

sup guys! The problem with the health care industry and allowing the invisible hand of the market to control costs is that people dont give a shit how much their healthcare costs. Not only that, but most people have no idea what a fair price would be even if they did care. Meanwhile, insurance companies only focus on minimizing costs to them and doctors to some extent are focused on increasing costs to benefit their hospital or practice. The problem, put simply, is that the invisible hand of the market doesn't work in every case. This is one of them. Healthcare as an industry lacks real competition in a market environment. There is not a single example of a working healthcare market devoid of government intervention in the world. Meanwhile, programs like those found in the Eurozone and even in the US (Medicare) are achieving higher quality of care at a lower cost overall with few(read:less) downsides as compared to more market-oriented approaches(like the US system prior to Obamacare). Single payer systems give all the leverage to a single party (a government entity) and said party uses that leverage to control costs. Socialism? I guess. But the markets are NOT perfect, which is why there is an entity in place set to intervene in the first place(you know... for the people, by the people?)... One can argue that the US government may be inherently corrupt and broadly incapable, and that'd be a legit argument in most people's minds... But most consumers lack the needed knowledge to make informed, economically efficient choices within the healthcare industry.

Your health care system is about as far from pure free market as one can get (since Nixon basically). Fascist is probably a more accurate description. There are no free market systems in the world at the moment. In a free market you would see no monopolization on what constitutes a doctor, you'd see alternative therapies wide spread, cancer would probably be cured (thanks THC/CBD!) and in general shit would be a million times better than it is now in terms of cost, supply and I'm willing to bet demand would go down a lot too thanks to better prevention strategies (ie: consume pot daily to help prevent all sorts of ailments) becoming more prevalent. Instead we have a (group of) highly authoritarian system(s) that operate(a) from the top down where a few people make big decisions that effect everyone and often aren't even looking out for everyone's best interests (instead, looking out for their own, various medical associations leadership have been guilty of this, IMO actively trying to limit the numbers of new doctors for example and more importantly new schools). The health care systems are quite fucked up, but I'm also quite sure the real issues causing the health care problems we see today are barely addressed in these debates.

 

[NLXSK1]

sup guys!

The problem with the health care industry and allowing the invisible hand of the market to control costs is that people dont give a shit how much their healthcare costs. Not only that, but most people have no idea what a fair price would be even if they did care. Meanwhile, insurance companies only focus on minimizing costs to them and doctors to some extent are focused on increasing costs to benefit their hospital or practice. The problem, put simply, is that the invisible hand of the market doesn't work in every case. This is one of them. Healthcare as an industry lacks real competition in a market environment. There is not a single example of a working healthcare market devoid of government intervention in the world. Meanwhile, programs like those found in the Eurozone and even in the US (Medicare) are achieving higher quality of care at a lower cost overall with few(read:less) downsides as compared to more market-oriented approaches(like the US system prior to Obamacare).

Single payer systems give all the leverage to a single party (a government entity) and said party uses that leverage to control costs. Socialism? I guess. But the markets are NOT perfect, which is why there is an entity in place set to intervene in the first place(you know... for the people, by the people?)... One can argue that the US government may be inherently corrupt and broadly incapable, and that'd be a legit argument in most people's minds... But most consumers lack the needed knowledge to make informed, economically efficient choices within the healthcare industry.

Yes, what we need is private doctor cooperatives to be able to be formed. These groups could provide healthcare at much lower costs avoiding the 3rd party insurance system. Also, up front pricing and competition would go a long way.

Insurance providers are much against the aforementioned plans because it takes them out of the loop.

But lets allow a few of these in states that want them and see what happens.

I want to try this with education as well.

 

[Rob Roy]

If a person is forced to purchase something they don't want or need are they still "free" ?

 

[mame]

If a person is forced to purchase something they don't want or need are they still "free" ?

what happens when an uninsured person breaks their leg and they are unable to pay their bill? Who foots the bill? Dont you get it? That uninsured guy got off scott free and taxpayers footed the bill. So under that scenario the uninsured guy is skirting personal responsibility and adversely effecting others. Under Obamacare, even that poor guy is covered and so you're actually only forcing that poor guy to be held accountable. It makes it so everyone is effected when joe schmoe breaks his leg - including joe schmoe. So if that's you're argument, it's a weak one IMO.

 

[NoDrama]

what happens when an uninsured person breaks their leg and they are unable to pay their bill? Who foots the bill? Dont you get it? That uninsured guy got off scott free and taxpayers footed the bill. So under that scenario the uninsured guy is skirting personal responsibility and adversely effecting others. Under Obamacare, even that poor guy is covered and so you're actually only forcing that poor guy to be held accountable. It makes it so everyone is effected when joe schmoe breaks his leg - including joe schmoe. So if that's you're argument, it's a weak one IMO.

Not everyone who is unable to pay their bill gets off scott free. Many will have payment plans, or Charity or Medicare or a host of other reasons. And it isn't the taxpayers who pay for an unpaid hospital bill it is the hospitals customers, well unless you were under the impression that all hospitals are government agencies that is. Under Obamacare it is the taxpayers backs which will carry the load.

 

[Rob Roy]

what happens when an uninsured person breaks their leg and they are unable to pay their bill? Who foots the bill? Dont you get it? That uninsured guy got off scott free and taxpayers footed the bill. So under that scenario the uninsured guy is skirting personal responsibility and adversely effecting others. Under Obamacare, even that poor guy is covered and so you're actually only forcing that poor guy to be held accountable. It makes it so everyone is effected when joe schmoe breaks his leg - including joe schmoe. So if that's you're argument, it's a weak one IMO.

Yes I get it. Quite well actually. My core philosophy encompasses not to take from others absent their consent. Are you okay with taking from somebody against their will or asking others to do this on your behalf?

Unnsured guy "gets off scot free" ? Solution....don't pay for him unless you want to. Under what authority should I or you make another person purchase something or that person must suffer a penalty?

Can you or I "consent" for anybody but ourselves? How is this done without changing the meaning of "consent" ?

 

[Rob Roy]

And that is why i drive without insurance. No goverment is going to force me to be responsible. That aint liberty.

Being responsible can and does happen absent government force.

 

[NoDrama]

I get into an accident and i cant pay
screw em
I will just declare bankruptcy

Bankruptcy doesn't work like that. Bankruptcy does not relieve you of your financial responsibilities when it comes to legal judgements. Where liability has been proven and a judgment obtained, discharge will stay collection; where there has been no judgment of liability, a discharge in bankruptcy can have no real effect.

 

[tryingtogrow89]

http://www.nationaljournal.com/2012-presidential-campaign/poll-romney-paul-tie-obama-20120109
Here is a link from cbs news saying ron paul and romney can beat obama in a head to head match up.

 

[tryingtogrow89]

Where do VIPs from all over the world go when they need serious medical treatment?

To the US - end of story.

False my friend we have the 47th worse health care in the world. Who would come here for that?

 

[desert dude]

I'll even stipulate that the republicans are not really coming to grips with the issues either, so I don't even expect a huge improvement from them.

I just mean - I'm not better off than I was four years ago, I think Obama mislead me, and I don't see what he is going to do in another four years except spend more borrowed money. I'm looking for a reason to maybe vote for him again. If I don't find it I may as well give the republican (probably Romney) a chance. I don't want to hear that Romney is even worse than Obama, or that the unemployment rate went down a little, I want to hear specific plans.

Because he will ramp up the DEA raids on MMJ dispensaries thereby ensuring high pot prices for hard working NorCal growers!

 

[purklize]

If you like France so much, move to France. Dont try to make America France and tell the Americans to leave you arrogant prick.

2 out of 3 Americans want the French model. Go to Somalia if you're against regulation, last time I checked they had none and it's supposed to be a great place to live.

 

[purklize]

Entitlements are what's killing this country, 50% don't pay Fed taxes, over 50% of Maine is on welfare, 20% of those using welfare or Medicare are illegals. All driving of the cost or EVERYTHING! Health care would not need a fix or be so expensive if 60% of those using it actually paid their bills. Just think of it this way, when your get that MRI bill, 2 other people got a free one and your covering their bill!

Bring the troops home, put them on the borders locking it down, offer amnesty to all non violent illegals, put caps on these life long welfare families and drop the IRS code in favor of a national sales tax EVERYONE gets to pay!

I would even vote for Nancy Pelosi for President if she ended ENTITLEMENTS!

Wrong, every American pays taxes. Those working minimum wage pay higher taxes than billionaires - here it's 6% payroll tax, 6% state sales tax, 6% state income tax property tax, all kinds of fees and fines for driving, water hookup, power hookup, etc. Comes to an effective tax rate of about 20-30% for minimum wage workers making less than 10,000 a year. Billionaire investors pay 15% on capital gains, which is where their income comes from...

What's bankrupting us is all the rich fuckers not paying their fair share. The top 1% of Americans owned over 40% of the wealth in 2007 (probably well over 50% now thanks to the crisis). The bottom half of Americans own less than 1% of the wealth. You really think you're going to solve the budget crisis by taking food off the table of poor people who have nothing to give but pennies? Get real.

 

[UncleBuck]

Because he will ramp up the DEA raids on MMJ dispensaries thereby ensuring high pot prices for hard working NorCal growers!

lol.

ever hear of the holder memo? the one that keeps you out of trouble federally as long as you comply with state laws? at whose directive was that issued?

tell me about some of these raids. are you certain that they were ALL operating 100% within state laws?

or is there the possibility that just like up here in oregon, they only raided the ones BLATANTLY violating the law and left most all of the others alone? by the way, the crackdown in our state came from state AGs, not the fed gov.

and by the way, shame on you californians for keeping prices so high. i have been to your state and seen the prices. you guys need to take a page from oregon, and only charge what is fair. we still get by OK selling at half the prices you guys do.

 

[purklize]

No they do not!! You will NEVER see a coroner's report that lists cause of death as "Didn't have insurance" No one ever dies from lack of insurance EVER!!! They die from disease, accidents, suicide, combat etc, but not from lack of insurance.

Wrong, you can look at statistical data and find cases where people had a treatable condition and were unable to receive that treatment because it was unaffordable due to lack of insurance coverage, and then died as a result (this doesn't include those with insurance whose provider refused to pay for life saving treatment, falsely declaring it "experimental" even if it's standard procedure and been around for decades, this is very common).

27,000 people represents .001% of the population.

It's more than all illegal drug deaths, it's several times that of all deaths caused by asthma, it's comparable to traffic deaths...

You have to consider that this is a "per year" thing. 4 million people are born per year here in the US. That comes to slightly less than a one out of 100 chance of dying from a treatable illness because you had no health insurance to cover the cost of treatment. Multiply that by 80 years of life and you have high odds of dying a preventable death. I have personally known cancer patients that could not get treatment anywhere and died without ever getting chemo, surgery, or even painkillers.

People without insurance deserve to die, it their fault for not having insurance

It's not their fault greedy capitalists destroyed the economy and left them with no jobs. And even if you can find a job, it rarely provides health coverage. Purchasing a health plan will run you a minimum of $10,000 a year. Minimum wage pays less than that...

Gotta have choices, some people CHOOSE not to have insurance, have you factored them in?

I have never met anyone who chose to not have health coverage. Those who can afford it, get it, and those who can't, don't, because their scumbag employers pay them a poverty wage with no benefits.

Where do VIPs from all over the world go when they need serious medical treatment?

To the US - end of story.

Yeah, they also have billions of dollars to spend, which the average person does not. Unless you have a ton of money, health care in the US is AWFUL. Far worse than anywhere else in Europe, worse even than Canada. Never met anyone from those countries who wished they had health care systems like ours. People in England think all the scary tv ads about their health care system are outrageous, absurd, laughable - on par with the anti-mj ads here in the US. Bongs out, toke up, the funny is on!

 

[olylifter420]

i think it is called , insurancitits

 

[bkbbudz]

I'll even stipulate that the republicans are not really coming to grips with the issues either, so I don't even expect a huge improvement from them.

I just mean - I'm not better off than I was four years ago, I think Obama mislead me, and I don't see what he is going to do in another four years except spend more borrowed money. I'm looking for a reason to maybe vote for him again. If I don't find it I may as well give the republican (probably Romney) a chance. I don't want to hear that Romney is even worse than Obama, or that the unemployment rate went down a little, I want to hear specific plans.

Good qustion!! I have a small tiny glint of some hope in the next Obama term. The man is liberal, somewhat pragmatic and down to business in a kiss-ass
kind of way. But he will also have nothing too loose this term by pushing for legalization. Please don't think me insane for trying to hold on to something, anything that I can find as a possible positive motivation to vote for ANY of them! Mitt Romney? The face? c'mon this guy has got his nose so far up the parties fat asses that he ain't been able to hear any thing he can stick too. Let alone anything he says. His lips are always to attached to anyone who is dumb enough to support his ridiculous campaigns, asses. How can he say anything that means anything with all the crack kissing? Watching this guy is like watching hair fall out. As or our buddy Newt, he's had his own head up his ass so long he can't even shit hisself anymore. If Gingrich were to tell me the sky was blue, I would have to look up too make sure.

Don't let yourself be bullied anymore. We know who is the ONLY right man for the Presidency....Jorge Cervantes for Pres!!! JORGE! jORGE!! JORGE!!!

 

[Bucket head]

My question to you is why the fuck are you on a pot forum if you are voting for mittens???? he is a anti pot all day!!! furthermore, he is a flip floppy douche!!! i dont get it???