No offense taken by me Papaoscartango. I know that an HID setup would give me a better yield. But I have young stepdaughters that visit and are very observant, kids next door who are the same. Plus with the ambient heat issues in summer in my area HID is just too much headache for me at this time. Later on down the road might I invest in an HID and go to a closed-loop A/C'd CO2 supplementing aeroponic table setup? If I win the lotto or my hubby or I get a great well paying job to afford it, sure! But to give an idea of finances at the moment I have precisely $40/month to spend on medicine. Some months less. ANY grow will be very helpful to me and this looks like the best compromise option so far being as I'm not interested in CFLs with a ruderalis cross. T5s making more sense now?
Please critique/comment on my plan for small personal medical grow. *kind of long*
- Thread starter aoyanagi
- Start date
Ohh, side note has anyone got and tried using the dawn/dusk dimming timer on some of the nice refurbished reef tank fixtures? They're running about $10 more than the ones without the feature on ebay, I think if I can I'll spring for 'em and try one grow with and one without using that feature. It seems interesting to try and more closely mimic natural rhythms, I'll be gradually cutting back on light hours and switching bulbs, don't have a schedule for it yet depends on how big my clones are when I get 'em. Guess there's my idea for my grow journal. New plan:
DIY 4x4 ft tent - Hubby can weld the tent frame using scrap pipe in our backyard from old fencing. MiL is an aweosme seamstress, pay/trade favors with her to get a fireproof blanket with a space blanket fabric glued on it sewed into my tent. Cost: ouch, about $100. Might go with fire retardant instead of fireproof for half the cost since I'm not running HIDs. Can likely find a used one in my area cheaper too. Hooray for oilfield equipment auctions! Would an insulation blanket work? Since I don't have to worry about HID heat issues?
2- 4ft 4 bulb T5 fixtures: refurbished from ebay, total of 8 6500K bulbs included. Cost: just under $200
PAR bulbs: tbd depending on funds, but most assuredly will be purchasing some Wavepoint ULTRA GROWTH/ULTRA COLA bulbs as soon as they are available. It would seem a manufacturer has realized this great untapped market in folks like us finally.
Soil: Happy Frog possibly with some FFOF mixed with it. I know it's not the BEST but it's what's available locally. Will have a worm farm this spring/summer to get my own EWC tea. (My grandma's teachings on composting and organic gardening from the time I was a toddler are finally coming in very handy.) Again funds will determine if I spring for any liquid nutes or further amendments. Cost: about $40 total to get started. Oh I also have access to thoroughly composted horse manure, for free. Would this be a possible future soil base and/or amendment? Anyone know offhand?
Ventilation: 4in bathroom exhaust fan on lowest setting with DIY carbon filter on intake. Possible use of computer fans to supplement airflow into grow closet if needed. Cost: tbd, shouldn't be much more than $40-50 hopefully.
Ok, what Am I missing guys? Surely I can't get started for under $300? Oh, and scrapping any CO2 generation for now. Just a complication and yield isn't my focus.
DIY 4x4 ft tent - Hubby can weld the tent frame using scrap pipe in our backyard from old fencing. MiL is an aweosme seamstress, pay/trade favors with her to get a fireproof blanket with a space blanket fabric glued on it sewed into my tent. Cost: ouch, about $100. Might go with fire retardant instead of fireproof for half the cost since I'm not running HIDs. Can likely find a used one in my area cheaper too. Hooray for oilfield equipment auctions! Would an insulation blanket work? Since I don't have to worry about HID heat issues?
2- 4ft 4 bulb T5 fixtures: refurbished from ebay, total of 8 6500K bulbs included. Cost: just under $200
PAR bulbs: tbd depending on funds, but most assuredly will be purchasing some Wavepoint ULTRA GROWTH/ULTRA COLA bulbs as soon as they are available. It would seem a manufacturer has realized this great untapped market in folks like us finally.
Soil: Happy Frog possibly with some FFOF mixed with it. I know it's not the BEST but it's what's available locally. Will have a worm farm this spring/summer to get my own EWC tea. (My grandma's teachings on composting and organic gardening from the time I was a toddler are finally coming in very handy.) Again funds will determine if I spring for any liquid nutes or further amendments. Cost: about $40 total to get started. Oh I also have access to thoroughly composted horse manure, for free. Would this be a possible future soil base and/or amendment? Anyone know offhand?
Ventilation: 4in bathroom exhaust fan on lowest setting with DIY carbon filter on intake. Possible use of computer fans to supplement airflow into grow closet if needed. Cost: tbd, shouldn't be much more than $40-50 hopefully.
Ok, what Am I missing guys? Surely I can't get started for under $300? Oh, and scrapping any CO2 generation for now. Just a complication and yield isn't my focus.
overTHEman
Active Member
Cool! You're really going for it? Post pics when you start getting your stuff!
From a starting point, you might be best avoiding the "ultra growth" bulb from Wave Point. Although it looks like a good bulb, it has not been tested by the PAR community and the graph clearly shows a high 550nm peak. This leads me to believe that it is partially a triphosphor bulb and thus, best used as a "filler" bulb.
You're already getting the 6,500k bulbs and these fill the 500-600nm range very well. If you're going to get PAR bulbs, the bulbs that have more specific peaks in blue and red will be of the most benefit. This will allow you to maximize your efficiency per bulb. UVL Super Actinic and RedSun are two of the most specific spectrums available. The CoralWave bulb by WavePoint is a great "blue" bulb for flowering as it also contains VERY FAR red and this will encourage flowering.
The following bulb mixes incorporate your 6,500k bulbs, for the wallet's sake.
Heavy Blue ~ 70/30 blue/red
|6,500k, RedSun, Super Actinic, 6,500k| |6,500k, RedSun, Super Actinic, 6,500k|
Red Dominant ~ 40/60 blue/red
|6,500k, RedSun, CoralWave, RedSun*| |RedSun*, CoralWave, RedSun, 6,500k|
*Not sure if having redsuns on the end of fixtures is okay... this might be the problem everyone's having with them. if this is the case, switch the end RedSuns with the CoralWaves.
Realistically, you could veg with the 6,500k bulbs alone and alternate 6,500k/RedSun/6,500k/RedSun (x2) in flower. If you're looking to save some green while still growing some, this is what I would recommend. Ask the pr0fesseur, he's the source... but do it in a PM so as to avoid trollish behavior.
Finally, don't discount the Fiji Purple because of its price. I won't say any more than that at risk of an Undercover Cop hearing.
From a starting point, you might be best avoiding the "ultra growth" bulb from Wave Point. Although it looks like a good bulb, it has not been tested by the PAR community and the graph clearly shows a high 550nm peak. This leads me to believe that it is partially a triphosphor bulb and thus, best used as a "filler" bulb.
You're already getting the 6,500k bulbs and these fill the 500-600nm range very well. If you're going to get PAR bulbs, the bulbs that have more specific peaks in blue and red will be of the most benefit. This will allow you to maximize your efficiency per bulb. UVL Super Actinic and RedSun are two of the most specific spectrums available. The CoralWave bulb by WavePoint is a great "blue" bulb for flowering as it also contains VERY FAR red and this will encourage flowering.
The following bulb mixes incorporate your 6,500k bulbs, for the wallet's sake.
Heavy Blue ~ 70/30 blue/red
|6,500k, RedSun, Super Actinic, 6,500k| |6,500k, RedSun, Super Actinic, 6,500k|
Red Dominant ~ 40/60 blue/red
|6,500k, RedSun, CoralWave, RedSun*| |RedSun*, CoralWave, RedSun, 6,500k|
*Not sure if having redsuns on the end of fixtures is okay... this might be the problem everyone's having with them. if this is the case, switch the end RedSuns with the CoralWaves.
Realistically, you could veg with the 6,500k bulbs alone and alternate 6,500k/RedSun/6,500k/RedSun (x2) in flower. If you're looking to save some green while still growing some, this is what I would recommend. Ask the pr0fesseur, he's the source... but do it in a PM so as to avoid trollish behavior.
Finally, don't discount the Fiji Purple because of its price. I won't say any more than that at risk of an Undercover Cop hearing.
overTHEman
Active Member
As far as soil, GET THAT COMPOSTED MANURE! RIGHT NOW, send some this way.
Mix it 1 part manure to 4 parts FFOF - a little vermiculite or perlite and you'll be all set with water and molasses.
Happy growing.
Mix it 1 part manure to 4 parts FFOF - a little vermiculite or perlite and you'll be all set with water and molasses.
Happy growing.
Papaoscartango
Active Member
Good call on the CO2 - too dangerous for domestic life. Couple things i didn't see. Assorted pots, germination tray & dome, wide mouth jars for stash - Wal Mart, Dollar Store tupper ware for pre-cure, pair of Good & not so good trimmers, disposable air dryers - they go on sale often, 30x loop.....nothing here you can't scroung or over $10.
Undercover Cop
Active Member
lol, Im waiting for AS to get the Fiji's in stock, so they can send me two to replace the two RedSuns that went out.... I won't say any more than that at risk of an Undercover Cop hearing.
I think the Fiji's have some value, just dont have any myself yet. The ultra growth's are another story, Im stoked for them...and their 660nm
Undercover Cop
Active Member
I got ideas for you but gotta go to bed right now, so Ill tease you... 52"W(wide enough for a little play on each side of the fixtures) x30"D(two fixtures deep) x48"H... frame however you like, but ACE hardware has mylar surfaced bubblewrap for insulation (like for auto sunshades) It can be stapled in place and will hold its own form well (doesnt have to be glued onto something like plywood to be useful) its like .70 ft. cheap and its awesome for refletivity cuz the little bubbles from the bubblewrap inside make a nice dimpled surface, lots of reflected/scattered light. Ill take pics to show you tomorrow, but you can make a rough frame that can hold the two lights, then line it with the bubblewrap inside for light reflection. I also cut the bubblewrap into discs to place around my stems to cover my rootballs from light, to prevent algae on my rockwool.
search google for Comair rotron "Muffin" fans... cheap! and made for continuous use, like the kind that are affixed to LARGE 6' computer server towers
g'nite, pics tomorrow. Im stoned and rambling now. work tomorrow
ps, ordered 5 Pipi fem seeds and 5 Wembley fem seeds and got 10 free fem seeds tonite. cant wait to finally have good genetics
im excited!http://www.inda-gro.com/gallery/album/9#5
DO WANT! le sigh maybe next year. Then I could use my T5s as side lighting, mwa ha ha . . . Still looking into more DIY cost-saving options, will report back with plan #3 in a day or two. These are refinements, not set in stone. I probably still have a month at least before I can even start ordering my things. Hate being poor waiting on tax returns!
DO WANT! le sigh maybe next year. Then I could use my T5s as side lighting, mwa ha ha . . . Still looking into more DIY cost-saving options, will report back with plan #3 in a day or two. These are refinements, not set in stone. I probably still have a month at least before I can even start ordering my things. Hate being poor waiting on tax returns!
jordan293
Well-Known Member
hey op I kno you read don't post about hids but I just wanna say this I live in nm myself and it's very possible to grow in the summer cuz Iv done it lots of times. I think u might live in south nm cuz I'm up by abq and the hottest it gets in the summers is 95 I don't even think it hit 100 last year. but I was running 2 400w hids side by side and I just ran an oscillating fan in there blowing in the direction of the lights and it stayed in reasonable temps. now alot of people are gonna say don't let it get above 85 or whatever but from my personal experiences plants can still grow good in the 90's only when it gets to 100+ that they start wilting. but I just did a grow last summer and they all grew perfectly fine
Actually I'm in the Four Corners area, but it's not just the heat. It's the heat, the wasted eletrictity producing heat rather than light, the fact that my house has wonky wiring already and would need professional work just to be brought up to code much less have the juice for an HID+cooling, and the difference in operating costs. My t5 light should raise my electric bill siginificantly less than your HID does. Since my family lives paycheck to paycheck, this is important. I'm looking for work that fits my availability but thus far no luck.
Undercover Cop
Active Member
(Ill admit first I didnt read thru the whole website, my computer was getting funky, but Ive seen some induction lights other places, very interesting tho
im not too sure about those... I am sure they would kick the shit outta HID w/ their spectrum and light output vs cooler running temps, but for PAR, they kinda look like a tri-phosphor fluoro tube. good blue, green, then 610nm-ish red. IMO, better choice than HID for when you get to that point, but I'd go that way only after your T5's are tweaked right. I think we'll see alot more induction lights in the near future tho. basically HID w/o the heat
Yeah, I noticed the red deficiencies. But all I could think was "look at all that low heat PUR flux, excuse me I need to change my jeans." It would be a with my T5 thing, not independent of it. And the cost would have to come down a bit. I'm thinking more and more of not doing organic for my first grow. My local dude will sell me the FF soil and nutes cheap, and if I'm adding any kind of salt-nute that would completely defeat the point of organics. And I don't yet have a good compost pile/worm farm going. Paying through the nose for someone else's organic soil amendments just chaps my hide when I know how to do this stuff myself. I was washing eggshells at 2 for my grandma's compost. I have a rotating composter but didn't realize the PoS never gets hot enough to kill off weed seeds, used to grandma's oldschool "throw everything in the pile and turn it twice a year and let the heat and microbes deal with 'em" method. If anyone hates someone I have what looks like black gold but is full of enough goat head seeds to cover an acre in one season of spreading. Goat head are such a nasty awful difficult to get rid of plant. Only cure seems to be burn down to bare soil, rake, then burn and rake again over and over until you've cooked them all then get some good fast spreading ground cover in quick or they'll be back in a week. So yah that's getting dumped out and taken to the dump. Oh and they're called goat heads because their seeds are pointy bastards and when you step on them they inject you with stingy/burny/itchy evilness.
So I'll probably try and restart that rotating composter carefully following it's directions this time. But it'll still be a good 6-9 months after that before I start getting usable soil from it. For a worm farm I'm planning on the same old way grandma taught me: cheap screened window frame for the bottom, scrap wood box with a lid, small air holes all around. Layer shredded brown bags, soil, veggie/fruit scraps, sand, etc. Lightly water twice a day, use small red worms not big old nightcrawlers. Keep a catch pan underneath as the water that falls through is great for giving to plants. Was grams right on target?
So I'll probably try and restart that rotating composter carefully following it's directions this time. But it'll still be a good 6-9 months after that before I start getting usable soil from it. For a worm farm I'm planning on the same old way grandma taught me: cheap screened window frame for the bottom, scrap wood box with a lid, small air holes all around. Layer shredded brown bags, soil, veggie/fruit scraps, sand, etc. Lightly water twice a day, use small red worms not big old nightcrawlers. Keep a catch pan underneath as the water that falls through is great for giving to plants. Was grams right on target?
Undercover Cop
Active Member
I may be recalling wrong, but I thing Induction lighting uses the same principles as fluoros anyway, and use phosphors to create the light, which would lead us to the same issues with the red phosphors being the most expensive/rare/chinese lol. Im not sure about their efficiency vs fluros. If these are just SuperHO fluoros or if they have a significantly better lumens per watt than T5-T2's (T2's have even better ouput efficiency than T5's but they're so thin (1/4") they're only made upto 18"L)
I have no idea about anything organic, I only eat food from a can or box (or cooked by a highschooler and handed through a window) and honestly I dont like the thought of microbes and bacteria (yes Im aware that they are EVERYWHERE inside and outside of everyone) it just kinda grosses me out lol... I went 25 years of my life refusing to eat yogurt because of the thought of live cultures being inside me (while still aware they already were, I just didnt want any more lol) So I have no prob w salt/chem nutes in my hydro, and honestly I really like the fact I dont have to rely on the health of any microbial communities for my babies to be able to use the organic foods they would get. I just give them pure food grade ingredients with as few additives/extras as possible. only the exact elements they need and can utilize without being processed first. I figure less to go wrong there (only one plant system to support, not two when you count the microbial system in the root zone) I do like the thought of making your mj as pure and natural as possible for the best results, but as long as your chem nutes are food grade and clean then you're giving your babes exactly what they need. I think of it like comparing being tube fed in the hospital vs eating a steak dinner. Both will give you the necessary nutes to live, but you take energy to cut your steak (could even cut your finger! ouch!) then chew it and digest it, and then of course you have the salad and veggies that you dont really want to eat but you have to anyway! Theres alot involved in getting your nutrients that way, and then after dinner youve taken so much energy that you get tired and fall asleep! food coma! or you could lay in a hostpital bed and not move for days, and still get the liquid nutes necessary to survive with absolutely no stress... or maybe like a kobe beef cow, zero stress. Im stoned again and rambling, but my point is dont shy away from hydro quicker start to finish also
I have no idea about anything organic, I only eat food from a can or box (or cooked by a highschooler and handed through a window) and honestly I dont like the thought of microbes and bacteria (yes Im aware that they are EVERYWHERE inside and outside of everyone) it just kinda grosses me out lol... I went 25 years of my life refusing to eat yogurt because of the thought of live cultures being inside me (while still aware they already were, I just didnt want any more lol) So I have no prob w salt/chem nutes in my hydro, and honestly I really like the fact I dont have to rely on the health of any microbial communities for my babies to be able to use the organic foods they would get. I just give them pure food grade ingredients with as few additives/extras as possible. only the exact elements they need and can utilize without being processed first. I figure less to go wrong there (only one plant system to support, not two when you count the microbial system in the root zone) I do like the thought of making your mj as pure and natural as possible for the best results, but as long as your chem nutes are food grade and clean then you're giving your babes exactly what they need. I think of it like comparing being tube fed in the hospital vs eating a steak dinner. Both will give you the necessary nutes to live, but you take energy to cut your steak (could even cut your finger! ouch!) then chew it and digest it, and then of course you have the salad and veggies that you dont really want to eat but you have to anyway! Theres alot involved in getting your nutrients that way, and then after dinner youve taken so much energy that you get tired and fall asleep! food coma! or you could lay in a hostpital bed and not move for days, and still get the liquid nutes necessary to survive with absolutely no stress... or maybe like a kobe beef cow, zero stress. Im stoned again and rambling, but my point is dont shy away from hydro
quicker start to finish also overTHEman
Active Member
Induction lighting looks like an effective alternative to HID, that 's a good find and an informative site. We'll have to keep an eye out for this lighting in the aquarium industry.
Roll up your sleeves UCC, we're about to get dirty.
Organics
"Organics" is a term used to describe the exchange of carbon in biologically active material. It's important to distinguish that organics is an idea, not nutrients. The lifecycle of the soil's microbiology, particularly fungi, is what feeds your plants. These fungi are known as "mychorrizae" and are nature's nutrient highway. 95% of all plants form mychorrizal connections with either ectomychorrizal fungi or endomychorrizal (arbuscular) fungi. Cannabis is not excluded from this statistic; in fact, it is known to make connections with multiple species of fungi throughout its lifecycle. Fungal strands are very long (sometimes miles!) and thin, this allows them to access parts of the soil that were unavailable to the plant's roots. Bacteria eat sugar, fungi eat bacteria, worms and protozoa eat fungi.
Enough theory, let's apply it.
Ingredients - water, soil, molasses, Espoma BioTone Plus (available at Lowes/Home Deopt/Meijer).
Mix 1 cup BioTone to 3 gallons soil medium, water with molasses until harvest. If the plant is hardy through veg, a light top dressing of BioTone and Kelp Meal (also Espoma) may be appropriate upon flowering. These two, with the addition of simple sugars like molasses or corn meal, will facilitate a healthy soil food web in your soil.
Want worm castings in the soil mix but don't want to pay for corporate-castings? Bait and tackle shops have plenty of worms looking for a new biologically diverse environment in which to live.
Point:
Be careful with the word "organic" in a hydro shop. As far as organics are concerned; the clerks are there to make money, not sell the best product for your needs. Organics is simple; don't let them tell you otherwise. Why buy four bottles of watered down molasses and three bottles of liquid fish when the required materials can be sourced locally? Have you ever seen anyone fertilizing an old Redwood forest?
/rant
...
All of this being said, FF nutes have been proven to work and will grow great plants. We'll be following either way!
Happy Growing, aoyanagi.
Roll up your sleeves UCC, we're about to get dirty.
Organics
"Organics" is a term used to describe the exchange of carbon in biologically active material. It's important to distinguish that organics is an idea, not nutrients. The lifecycle of the soil's microbiology, particularly fungi, is what feeds your plants. These fungi are known as "mychorrizae" and are nature's nutrient highway. 95% of all plants form mychorrizal connections with either ectomychorrizal fungi or endomychorrizal (arbuscular) fungi. Cannabis is not excluded from this statistic; in fact, it is known to make connections with multiple species of fungi throughout its lifecycle. Fungal strands are very long (sometimes miles!) and thin, this allows them to access parts of the soil that were unavailable to the plant's roots. Bacteria eat sugar, fungi eat bacteria, worms and protozoa eat fungi.
Enough theory, let's apply it.
Ingredients - water, soil, molasses, Espoma BioTone Plus (available at Lowes/Home Deopt/Meijer).
Mix 1 cup BioTone to 3 gallons soil medium, water with molasses until harvest. If the plant is hardy through veg, a light top dressing of BioTone and Kelp Meal (also Espoma) may be appropriate upon flowering. These two, with the addition of simple sugars like molasses or corn meal, will facilitate a healthy soil food web in your soil.
Want worm castings in the soil mix but don't want to pay for corporate-castings? Bait and tackle shops have plenty of worms looking for a new biologically diverse environment in which to live.
Point:
Be careful with the word "organic" in a hydro shop. As far as organics are concerned; the clerks are there to make money, not sell the best product for your needs. Organics is simple; don't let them tell you otherwise. Why buy four bottles of watered down molasses and three bottles of liquid fish when the required materials can be sourced locally? Have you ever seen anyone fertilizing an old Redwood forest?
/rant
...
All of this being said, FF nutes have been proven to work and will grow great plants. We'll be following either way!
Happy Growing, aoyanagi.
overTHEman
Active Member
Hey aoyanagi,
It was late and I usually don't smoke indicas, i'm sorry for micro-trolling your thread.
The point was:
If you want to get your stuff from the hydro shop, go with hydro nutes. FloraNova by GH, Canna, and Dyna-Gro each have yielded much success in soil/coco mediums. Dyna-Grow stands out in my mind for its ease of use, ph stability, and complete/balanced nutrition. Also, their ProTekt line is LOADED with silica and turns your plants into nutrient vacuums.
If organics better suits your style, check out a nursery or a big box store. Aim for dry nutes so you can mix them into your soil - living soil is a living plant. Espoma, Black Gold, and Jobe's are commonly available examples.
Either way, you'll have fun and a good harvest.
Keep us posted!
...
A Short organi-rant:
As far as "liquid organics" go, there is no such thing; "organics" refers to the exchange of carbon in a biologically active substrate. This happens through the lifecycle of micro-biological organisms. Organisms that live in the presence of oxygen, like your plants, are called "aerobic" while those that can live without oxygen are called "anaerobic." Aerobic bacteria will live in symbiosis with plants and other biology in the medium, anaerobic bacteria will destroy, compete, and eat. Companies achieve "stabilized" liquid organic fertilizers by using chemical compounds as a buffer to prevent anaerobic activity. Rule #13 of the soil food web says that "application of salts will have increasingly detrimental effects on the soil's microbiology."
So, unless there's a guy shaking the bottles every three hours at the hydro shop, you're not buying organic nutrients. You're buying organic malnutrients or something that looks and smells organic but is most likely synthetic and twice the price of the hydroponic equivalent.
It was late and I usually don't smoke indicas, i'm sorry for micro-trolling your thread.
The point was:
If you want to get your stuff from the hydro shop, go with hydro nutes. FloraNova by GH, Canna, and Dyna-Gro each have yielded much success in soil/coco mediums. Dyna-Grow stands out in my mind for its ease of use, ph stability, and complete/balanced nutrition. Also, their ProTekt line is LOADED with silica and turns your plants into nutrient vacuums.
If organics better suits your style, check out a nursery or a big box store. Aim for dry nutes so you can mix them into your soil - living soil is a living plant. Espoma, Black Gold, and Jobe's are commonly available examples.
Either way, you'll have fun and a good harvest.
Keep us posted!
...
A Short organi-rant:
As far as "liquid organics" go, there is no such thing; "organics" refers to the exchange of carbon in a biologically active substrate. This happens through the lifecycle of micro-biological organisms. Organisms that live in the presence of oxygen, like your plants, are called "aerobic" while those that can live without oxygen are called "anaerobic." Aerobic bacteria will live in symbiosis with plants and other biology in the medium, anaerobic bacteria will destroy, compete, and eat. Companies achieve "stabilized" liquid organic fertilizers by using chemical compounds as a buffer to prevent anaerobic activity. Rule #13 of the soil food web says that "application of salts will have increasingly detrimental effects on the soil's microbiology."
So, unless there's a guy shaking the bottles every three hours at the hydro shop, you're not buying organic nutrients. You're buying organic malnutrients or something that looks and smells organic but is most likely synthetic and twice the price of the hydroponic equivalent.
alphawolf.hack
New Member
i would go with hid regardless cooling can be cheaper than you think. 250 mh for veg would require no cooling and 400w hps could be used in conjunction with a carbon filter and inline fan. so basically your one fan on the 400w hps will do 3 jobs 1.bring fresh air in and expell old air 2. scrub air clean and remove smell 3. cool 400w hps. (if you run co2 you will need another fan) my compost tea ingredients: worm castings, seaweed extract, Mexican bat guano, Indonesian bat guano, mayan microzyme, bonemeal, great white mychorazzai, carbohydrate (corn-syrup,molasses,honey ect. i usualy mix my own. honey with root enhancer)
Undercover Cop
Active Member
I guess my point was just that I like that I only worry about exactly what I give them to eat, I dont have to worry about feeding the microbial/fungal subsystem the plants need to break down organics into useable compounds that are provided directly by hydroponic nutes. Once you figure out a blend that provides the right balance of Macro/micro nutes, you dont have to worry about burn/over-under watering, just give them the prescribed formula and keep em wet and youre golden.
this is all assuming a hdroponic grow system, I cant advise about using hydroponic nutes in soil. For soil I used MG All purpose for Veg, then I think it was Peters Pro for flowering, w/ epsom ST and Safer OxyPlus.
And I agree with the bunk organic liquids... especially AN, just look at their labels and guess who they direct their marketing at. Dry organics, like pure Bat or bird guano may be another story, but I have no direct experience w them so....
When I first started Hydro, before using H202 I would go to the beach in S.D. and collect fresh kelp, bring it home and wash it really well and blend it with clean water, then add that directly to my res. Not good for anything with pumps cuz they would clog, but for DWC I saw good response. I know kelp has lots of growth hormones and micro nutes and I never saw the water foul or any negative effects.
Aoyanagi, just go down to the beach and collect some kelp Im so useful huh lol.
But I think some dry kelp/seaweed would be something I would use if I went to soil, IF ...man those bugs are a pain tho, thats another reason I like hydro... NO BUGS!
this is all assuming a hdroponic grow system, I cant advise about using hydroponic nutes in soil. For soil I used MG All purpose for Veg, then I think it was Peters Pro for flowering, w/ epsom ST and Safer OxyPlus.
And I agree with the bunk organic liquids... especially AN, just look at their labels and guess who they direct their marketing at. Dry organics, like pure Bat or bird guano may be another story, but I have no direct experience w them so....
When I first started Hydro, before using H202 I would go to the beach in S.D. and collect fresh kelp, bring it home and wash it really well and blend it with clean water, then add that directly to my res. Not good for anything with pumps cuz they would clog, but for DWC I saw good response. I know kelp has lots of growth hormones and micro nutes and I never saw the water foul or any negative effects.
Aoyanagi, just go down to the beach and collect some kelp
Im so useful huh lol. But I think some dry kelp/seaweed would be something I would use if I went to soil, IF
...man those bugs are a pain tho, thats another reason I like hydro... NO BUGS!
Undercover Cop
Active Member
I run a 2 4bulb T5 fixtures (432w) and a 400w HPS in a 6" Cool Tube in my 6x6' flowering box inside a dedicated room with a fixed amt of exhaust ventillation that is kept the same thru all 3 of these measurements. Ext temp 85deg
With both the 432w of T5 and 400w HPS running
When the rest of my house is 70deg, with the door closed my grow room is 81 and inside the box is 87.
With only the 400w HPS w/Cool Tube
house temp 70deg, door closed my room is 79 and inside the box is 85
With only the 2 T5 fixtures/432w
house temp 70deg, door closed my room is 72 and inside the box is 74
I dont have to run the exhaust fan needed for the cool tube so that might help cut the heat also cuz fans do create heat its just dissipated quickly while running by its own design.
So the difference between a 400w HID w cool tube and ventilation within the same room with the same 8" fan for exhaust from the room... 13deg inside the box and 9 inside the room.
In the summer when my house heats up, my AC runs almost constantly and the temp rarely gets below 80...so my box would top around 97deg!!! I think 84 will be much more tolerable, so come summer I will be running only the 8 bulbs (Maybe 12) T5's for flowering. Compare Elect bill costs of running the AC non stop vs the cost of T5 bulbs... hmmm I bet it would be cheaper to buy T5 bulbs when you figure in cooling a 2 story home when its 115deg outside. Im not going to try to cool my whole house down 5 more degrees just for one room.
Undercover Cop
Active Member
Well it sounds like you definately may be getting spoiled then If you're getting a custom room built, #1 I would recommend is a cheap $120 small window AC, just build a hole in the wall to fit it through and exhaust the rear into the ambient garage air. The room wouldnt have to be very big at all, just enough for your veg box and flower box. and w/o HID the AC wouldnt have to run very much to keep the mean temp in the room pretty comfortable. Then you could keep the room sealed, which would allow the use of a simple CO2 farm if you want, otherwise you could open up it in the evening to ventilate (or use an exhaust fan on a timer) and keep it closed during the day when the garage is hot.
As far as your boxes, if you're having them built as shelves into the side of the room you could just use the reflective bubblewrap for dividing off different spaces. You could use a staple gun and attatch it to 2x2 framing to make a semi-permanent enclosure, its pretty sturdy.
Home depot has pressed fiberboard that is laminated white on one side that is about 1/8"thick and can be cut with a razor for about $12.
<-- white fiberboard, used for my front door (the white is good for reflective, debating if I need to attach some of hte bubblewrap to it or not)
They also have oriented strand board OSB that is layered with thermal reflective material, like aluminum foil on one side, that is 5/8" and very sturdy. just paint the backside so you dont have fibers flake off the non-layered side. That would be strong enough to attach brackets to also for shelving if you want. You'll have to figure out the dimensions you have to work with, but give yourself 2" on either side of your fixtures for clearance (maybe more like 4+" just to give room for big plants. You could do 4 plants veg pretty decently with a 4 bulb T5, but for flowering you will want at least 8. If you're not doing perpetual you can grow with 2 4bulb fixtures total but if you're going perpetual you'll need 3 of em, ideally 2 in the flower box over 4 larger plants, and one 4bulb in the veg box nursing babies.
<- to show sizes betwen 4 small plants vs 2 medium under the 8bulb
When building boxes, I like to include utility rails of some kind to allow for the lights to slide back and forth, and I use chains so I can just raise the hook up or down to adjust the lights, no need for yoyo hangers. I use electrical wiring conduit and conduit hangers, cut to size and hung lengthwise to work as a track with shower curtain hangers.
<- the rails running side to side
<- rails and the 3fan intake, the black disk in the top is the exhaust 6" fan
<- showing the exhaust fan. This is my nursery box.
For ventilation, as long as you have an AC in your room, all you would need to do is provide good airflow through your boxes, no ducting required, just some simple PC fans. I get mine from work, but google comair rotron muffin fans and you can find them cheap as hell (10$ish) otherwise a simple 6-8" circular vortex type fan ($15) would work more than well, it just might be hard to affix to the box... duct tape cut a hole in the top of the box for exhaust and depending on the CFM for your fan you might want another for intake down low to bring in cooler air. take your HxWxL for a total cubic ft, then calc the cfm of your total ventillation per box, if you circulate all air every 2 minutes youre good. (for ex... my veg box is 52w 26d 40h = roughly 32 cubic feet (my math is HORRIBLE so sorry if Im way off) I have 2 100cfm muffin fans totalling 200cfm. factoring in turbulence inside the box I figure Im exchanging all air inside the box every 15-20secs. The only heat is the direct radiant heat from the bulbs at close range, otherwise its pretty well room temp inside. The flowering box is another story cuz I have a HPS in a cool tube. But just from T5's, you'll be good with a light breeze through the canopy as long as you have minimal ventilation through the boxes and the ambient room temp is reasonable.
<- cheap desk fan to ruffle the tops and keep heat from building up.
What a difference 3 months makes!
<- orginally i didnt even intend to enclose the T5, the whole grow was completely impulsive at first. I bought the t5's for houseplants at first lol.
I built the nursery box cuz as you can see 4ft of t5 is abit much for small seedlings. I was sprouting seedlings under cfls ontop of the T5 lol. And the 8" vortex fan taped into the panda film covering my window for exhaust (worked, but not the best)
<- my nursery and veg box
<- flowering box, and boarded window with 8" exhaust ventilation
<- inside, mylar lined with 6" duct for cool tube and 4" line running to suck heat off the 150w hps (in the garage now trying to ripen up a hermie 
just some ideas Ill think of more later im sure
If you're getting a custom room built, #1 I would recommend is a cheap $120 small window AC, just build a hole in the wall to fit it through and exhaust the rear into the ambient garage air. The room wouldnt have to be very big at all, just enough for your veg box and flower box. and w/o HID the AC wouldnt have to run very much to keep the mean temp in the room pretty comfortable. Then you could keep the room sealed, which would allow the use of a simple CO2 farm if you want, otherwise you could open up it in the evening to ventilate (or use an exhaust fan on a timer) and keep it closed during the day when the garage is hot. As far as your boxes, if you're having them built as shelves into the side of the room you could just use the reflective bubblewrap for dividing off different spaces. You could use a staple gun and attatch it to 2x2 framing to make a semi-permanent enclosure, its pretty sturdy.
Home depot has pressed fiberboard that is laminated white on one side that is about 1/8"thick and can be cut with a razor for about $12.
<-- white fiberboard, used for my front door (the white is good for reflective, debating if I need to attach some of hte bubblewrap to it or not)They also have oriented strand board OSB that is layered with thermal reflective material, like aluminum foil on one side, that is 5/8" and very sturdy. just paint the backside so you dont have fibers flake off the non-layered side. That would be strong enough to attach brackets to also for shelving if you want. You'll have to figure out the dimensions you have to work with, but give yourself 2" on either side of your fixtures for clearance (maybe more like 4+" just to give room for big plants. You could do 4 plants veg pretty decently with a 4 bulb T5, but for flowering you will want at least 8. If you're not doing perpetual you can grow with 2 4bulb fixtures total but if you're going perpetual you'll need 3 of em, ideally 2 in the flower box over 4 larger plants, and one 4bulb in the veg box nursing babies.
<- to show sizes betwen 4 small plants vs 2 medium under the 8bulbWhen building boxes, I like to include utility rails of some kind to allow for the lights to slide back and forth, and I use chains so I can just raise the hook up or down to adjust the lights, no need for yoyo hangers. I use electrical wiring conduit and conduit hangers, cut to size and hung lengthwise to work as a track with shower curtain hangers.
<- the rails running side to side <- rails and the 3fan intake, the black disk in the top is the exhaust 6" fan <- showing the exhaust fan. This is my nursery box.For ventilation, as long as you have an AC in your room, all you would need to do is provide good airflow through your boxes, no ducting required, just some simple PC fans. I get mine from work, but google comair rotron muffin fans and you can find them cheap as hell (10$ish) otherwise a simple 6-8" circular vortex type fan ($15) would work more than well, it just might be hard to affix to the box... duct tape
cut a hole in the top of the box for exhaust and depending on the CFM for your fan you might want another for intake down low to bring in cooler air. take your HxWxL for a total cubic ft, then calc the cfm of your total ventillation per box, if you circulate all air every 2 minutes youre good. (for ex... my veg box is 52w 26d 40h = roughly 32 cubic feet (my math is HORRIBLE so sorry if Im way off) I have 2 100cfm muffin fans totalling 200cfm. factoring in turbulence inside the box I figure Im exchanging all air inside the box every 15-20secs. The only heat is the direct radiant heat from the bulbs at close range, otherwise its pretty well room temp inside. The flowering box is another story cuz I have a HPS in a cool tube. But just from T5's, you'll be good with a light breeze through the canopy as long as you have minimal ventilation through the boxes and the ambient room temp is reasonable. <- cheap desk fan to ruffle the tops and keep heat from building up.What a difference 3 months makes!
<- orginally i didnt even intend to enclose the T5, the whole grow was completely impulsive at first. I bought the t5's for houseplants at first lol.I built the nursery box cuz as you can see 4ft of t5 is abit much for small seedlings. I was sprouting seedlings under cfls ontop of the T5 lol. And the 8" vortex fan taped into the panda film covering my window for exhaust (worked, but not the best)
<- my nursery and veg box <- flowering box, and boarded window with 8" exhaust ventilation <- inside, mylar lined with 6" duct for cool tube and 4" line running to suck heat off the 150w hps (in the garage now trying to ripen up a hermie just some ideas
Ill think of more later im sure overTHEman
Active Member
Looks great, UCC; is that bubble wrap called "Reflectix"? That's available at Home Depot and Lowes as well. Thanks for posting those pics, it's always great to see another's construction. Grow on hydro-bro.
alphawolf.hack,
As far as your organic tea goes, I think you're confusing a few issues. Actively aerated compost tea is designed to brew bacteria/protozoa, not nutrients. A few points:
First, things like bonemeal and bat guano are best used in the soil medium as they have a high nutrient content and take quite some time to be broken down by the microbiology. Once or twice in each cycle, however, these can be used in a "nutrient" based tea; one should use sparingly at the risk of serious consequences (see Headband µTent).
Second, what is "mayan microzyme?" Generally speaking, "-zymes" refer to an enzyme that eats/removes dead organic waste - like roots. Since the life and death of microbiology in the soil is the lifeblood of your plant, this would likely be detrimental to your soil food web and in turn, your plant.
Third, adding mychorrizae to your AACT is a waste of a very expensive product. The largest benefit from products like Great White come from their fungal content. These Fungi can only live in symbiosis with the root and surrounding rhizoshpere or will be consumed in a biologically active substrate. Mychorrizal products are to be used during transplant as a direct application to roots. It is also important to note that plants will not create mychorrizal connections in a phosphorus rich environment.
At the risk of another organi-rant, let me put it this way: the application of nutritional based teas will, more often than not, have detrimental effects on the soil food web and, eventually the plant. You do have an interesting way of handling it and it likely works, but you have far overcomplicated the matter. Think about biology, not nutrients.
...
aoyanagi, what's the scoop? Have any updates for us? Make any grow-related decisions/judgement calls recently?
alphawolf.hack,
HID works, so stick with it. It seems like aoyanagi is really looking at the T5s, we should support that.
As far as your organic tea goes, I think you're confusing a few issues. Actively aerated compost tea is designed to brew bacteria/protozoa, not nutrients. A few points:
First, things like bonemeal and bat guano are best used in the soil medium as they have a high nutrient content and take quite some time to be broken down by the microbiology. Once or twice in each cycle, however, these can be used in a "nutrient" based tea; one should use sparingly at the risk of serious consequences (see Headband µTent).
Second, what is "mayan microzyme?" Generally speaking, "-zymes" refer to an enzyme that eats/removes dead organic waste - like roots. Since the life and death of microbiology in the soil is the lifeblood of your plant, this would likely be detrimental to your soil food web and in turn, your plant.
Third, adding mychorrizae to your AACT is a waste of a very expensive product. The largest benefit from products like Great White come from their fungal content. These Fungi can only live in symbiosis with the root and surrounding rhizoshpere or will be consumed in a biologically active substrate. Mychorrizal products are to be used during transplant as a direct application to roots. It is also important to note that plants will not create mychorrizal connections in a phosphorus rich environment.
At the risk of another organi-rant, let me put it this way: the application of nutritional based teas will, more often than not, have detrimental effects on the soil food web and, eventually the plant. You do have an interesting way of handling it and it likely works, but you have far overcomplicated the matter. Think about biology, not nutrients.
...
aoyanagi, what's the scoop? Have any updates for us? Make any grow-related decisions/judgement calls recently?