LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow

[PetFlora]

St Valentines Day Massacre: Time to bring her down. She filled out quite a bit in 30 days. When I got her the soil was so soaked I did not water for a week. Nuggz are small but tight. She's only 16" tall. I was fighting fucking fungus gnats the whole time. I have an electric fly swatter/zapper and would sweep/kill 4xs a day. I resorted to spraying her down with H2O2 each time I did a sweep: she seemed to like it.

T5s can bud just fine- if you have the right mix of bulbs

View attachment 2058911View attachment 2058912View attachment 2058914

 

[hyroot]

Happy singles awareness day

 

[PetFlora]

Don't bother checking out that CMH thread. There isn't one bit of information on CMH, it's just a bunch of people ranting back and forth calling each other names. Pointless really. I feel bad for the person who started the thread, they should really consider starting a new one now that one has been ruined not 6 pages into it.

I do journals instead of threads, which allows me to control/delete the idiots

 

[PetFlora]

I was at a cross roads when i came across Profs thread. Am I glad I did not go down the LED road further then I already had (UFO 90). I keep in touch with the various DIY LED threads. It seems unless you can DIY and know what the hell you are doing, you're probably gonna overpay and/or get screwed. Viva La HO T5s + aquarium bulbs

 

[mipainpatient]

I have a pair of the 15w advanced LEDs, their main flaw (IMHO unless you are just looking for supplemental) is the 120 degree angle.
If you want to conserve intensity in LEDs you need less than 90 degrees, 60 would be ideal for my application. I use the 15w'ers on seedlings and in the veg tent, which is small enough that you can see blue/magenta light bouncing from every little 2mmx2mm bump in the pounded mylar, so at the very least that 120 degree angle is getting it out there into the canopy, I will give it that.
But the most effective lights (LED) that I have seen maintain a smaller exit angle.
Btw if you haven't read me say it yet, I use t5 + LED + CFL
MPP

edit:
anyone seen this video? found it before I found this thread and ended up not buying from these guys but damn it is a nice bud porn shoot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kxPvN9ke2Xg

 

[AltarNation]

Hey MPP, what are you using for LEDs? DIY job or are you referring to something like this: http://www.advancedledlights.com/products/SpectraBoost-Grow-Spotlight-%2d-15w-High-Intensity-LED-Grow-Light.html ?

Either way, I'm curious how close you can get them to your plants at that wattage... thinking about getting some LEDs to supplement but I'm concerned with how to maintain a close-to-canopy arrangemnet with the T5's while adding the LEDs.

 

[mipainpatient]

Hey MPP, what are you using for LEDs? DIY job or are you referring to something like this: http://www.advancedledlights.com/products/SpectraBoost-Grow-Spotlight---15w-High-Intensity-LED-Grow-Light.html ?

Either way, I'm curious how close you can get them to your plants at that wattage... thinking about getting some LEDs to supplement but I'm concerned with how to maintain a close-to-canopy arrangemnet with the T5's while adding the LEDs.

I was gifted a pair of the lights your link goes to by a buddy who SWEARS by the larger advanced units and is a caregiver for 6 people. I was referring to that light for seedlings but the only heat from it is in the heat sink (the big metal folds) and it should be fine at 4"+ would think, less would cut down the light spread effect and possibly overdo the intensity, hurting the plant. Not to mention that being closer than 4" seems to me that it would make the 120 degree lensing useless and silly. You could totally use these units to test individual light spectrums on a particular if you just get real close and light that one stalk up. I also have a 90W (draws damn close to 90 in my setup) UFO from BloomBoss I found on amazon which has some really nice flavorful grows under its belt. It has PAR readings at various distances for different size footprints on a sheet that came with it, but I just do about 6-8" from the canopy, and pull the light up if the canopy rises.
I have my flower set up like this for now (2'x4'x5' pounded mylar darkroom tent):
-----2xCFL-------2xCFL
[4 2' t5] (UFO) [4 2' t5]
___2xCFL_____2xCFL

with coral waves/generic 6500Ks alternating in the t5s, 26W 6500K/2700K CFLs alternating at each double spot, and trying to figure out where to fit some UVb bulbs, have CFL and looking at t5. The 2xCFLs are sidelighting, hanging about 6-8" below the t5 units. The LED sits a couple inches above the t5s, so it will leak heavily onto each t5 footprint, while also making its own down the middle.
Veg is really just a big 125W CFL (6500K I think, though it looks more like 5500K to me) in a tiny 2x3x3 tent, small to keep the reflective surface close, leaking photons is giving away money. The 15w leds are hanging in here over some seedlings, but at more like 12", making the seedlings look more green than blue. (i have a 15w blue and a 15w magenta or full spec)
hope that helps,
mpp

 

[BlueB]

without reflectors you're losing at least 180degrees (50%+) of emitted light. With two bulbs per reflector or close to each other for blending, and they're shining on each other then you're losing light due to re-strike. I'd much prefer putting as much of the usable light downward towards my foliage rather than onto another bulb or up and away from where its needed. I make sure to have a equally blended spectrum using my bulb placement. Dont put two red heavy bulbs next to each other, nor two blues. Spread it evenly across the whole panel, so one side gets the same general glow as the other side.... pics soon to come, but Im going pink1/red/blue/pink2/pink1/red/blue/pink2 ... with RedSun for red, CoralWave for blue and pink1=Florasun pink2=AquaMedic Plant Grow.
I get his point, at very close distances...under 6"-ish a single bulb can dominate the overhead light of a very small plant... just rotate your pots abit to give a slight variation of the general glow theyre getting, but this would really only benefit small seedlings. once they have a few nodes and fan leaves, a fan blowing on them will ruffle the leaves enough to get light from other bulbs. A plant with any real size would be "seeing" light from all directions the bulbs are shining on em, they'll be fine as long as you dont have similar bulbs bunched together giving one side more blue or red than the other.

That was probably the reason the guy at ledgrow.eu used the mylar around his grow area to give it a "tube effect." Although some light may get wasted without the individual reflectors directing the light in a beam like fashion towards the plant, its true that the light would blend quite a bit more without the reflectors in the way, especially right up by the bulbs and not X inches away. I'm sure some light would be wasted since mylar isn't as perfectly reflective as a highly polished reflector, but I think his main concern was light blending. Since his grow area was more of a tube shape with mylar then most of that "wasted light" would be reflected back onto the plants eventually. It looked like the space between the lights and the canopy wasn't more than 24" or so. In an open area type grow, and without side-lighting, reflectors make the most sense. Keep in mind that these grows he's doing are supposedly only using 60w max. It looks like a 2' x 3' area or around there. 2w LEDs
This webpage starts at the bottom and reads up to the top,

http://www.ledgrow.eu/test7.html

He uses a few white lights to "complete the spectrum." Also uses IR light and talks about the importance of only using it during flower, and the benefits of side-lighting while using the same amount of electricity 62w. Anyway, he took his reflectors out for some reason when he started to use lights on the side. I'm pretty sure he did it because he wanted to move the lights closer to his plants since he had turned the wattage down, and keep the wavelengths blended enough.

If one was to use like 24 of the 4' single bulb fixtures(without reflector), and mount them in a Mylar tube like area, I think the curved Mylar would reflect the light enough.

 

[AltarNation]

St Valentines Day Massacre: Time to bring her down. She filled out quite a bit in 30 days. When I got her the soil was so soaked I did not water for a week. Nuggz are small but tight. She's only 16" tall. I was fighting fucking fungus gnats the whole time. I have an electric fly swatter/zapper and would sweep/kill 4xs a day. I resorted to spraying her down with H2O2 each time I did a sweep: she seemed to like it.

T5s can bud just fine- if you have the right mix of bulbs

View attachment 2058911View attachment 2058912View attachment 2058914

Nice job Flora, lookin' good!

 

[Undercover Cop]

That was probably the reason the guy at ledgrow.eu used the mylar around his grow area to give it a "tube effect." Although some light may get wasted without the individual reflectors directing the light in a beam like fashion towards the plant, its true that the light would blend quite a bit more without the reflectors in the way, especially right up by the bulbs and not X inches away. I'm sure some light would be wasted since mylar isn't as perfectly reflective as a highly polished reflector, but I think his main concern was light blending. Since his grow area was more of a tube shape with mylar then most of that "wasted light" would be reflected back onto the plants eventually. It looked like the space between the lights and the canopy wasn't more than 24" or so. In an open area type grow, and without side-lighting, reflectors make the most sense. Keep in mind that these grows he's doing are supposedly only using 60w max. It looks like a 2' x 3' area or around there. 2w LEDs
This webpage starts at the bottom and reads up to the top,

http://www.ledgrow.eu/test7.html

He uses a few white lights to "complete the spectrum." Also uses IR light and talks about the importance of only using it during flower, and the benefits of side-lighting while using the same amount of electricity 62w. Anyway, he took his reflectors out for some reason when he started to use lights on the side. I'm pretty sure he did it because he wanted to move the lights closer to his plants since he had turned the wattage down, and keep the wavelengths blended enough.

If one was to use like 24 of the 4' single bulb fixtures(without reflector), and mount them in a Mylar tube like area, I think the curved Mylar would reflect the light enough.

are we talking led's or T5's? without a reflector, whatever light is shining upward, even if it hits mylar, is likely being bounced right back down onto the tube it was emitted from, Im not even thinking about whatever kinda "tube" this guy has, just saying that reflectors are precicely angled to get the light that shines up, to be reflected back downward AROUND the tube to avoid re-strike. His theory makes sense, I just think its less than optimal and he's losing some of the power available from the t5's by removing the reflectors and raising the light to increase spectrum blending. I dont think spectrum blend would such an important issue if the tubes were blended properly.

Ive seen lots of pics here (not gonna call anyone out) that show an 8 bulb, with 2 blues on one side and 2 reds on the other, or right next to each other. Alternate tubes and thats all you need!

 

[BlueB]

http://www.advancedledlights.com/products/SpectraBoost-Grow-Spotlight---15w-High-Intensity-LED-Grow-Light.html

Cheaper than kessil and does not have the the sam lense that supposedly mkes kessils weak.

It looks like are using the same dense matrix type of led that Kessil is, only 15w instead of 36w. What's this lense that you speak of? I definitely might have to pick up a couple of these advanced led far-red spot lights to supplement with the 660nm Kessil if they even pan out. Thanks for the info!

 

[AltarNation]

I was gifted a pair of the lights your link goes to by a buddy who SWEARS by the larger advanced units and is a caregiver for 6 people. I was referring to that light for seedlings but the only heat from it is in the heat sink (the big metal folds) and it should be fine at 4"+ would think, less would cut down the light spread effect and possibly overdo the intensity, hurting the plant. Not to mention that being closer than 4" seems to me that it would make the 120 degree lensing useless and silly. You could totally use these units to test individual light spectrums on a particular if you just get real close and light that one stalk up. I also have a 90W (draws damn close to 90 in my setup) UFO from BloomBoss I found on amazon which has some really nice flavorful grows under its belt. It has PAR readings at various distances for different size footprints on a sheet that came with it, but I just do about 6-8" from the canopy, and pull the light up if the canopy rises.
I have my flower set up like this for now (2'x4'x5' pounded mylar darkroom tent):
-----2xCFL-------2xCFL
[4 2' t5] (UFO) [4 2' t5]
___2xCFL_____2xCFL

with coral waves/generic 6500Ks alternating in the t5s, 26W 6500K/2700K CFLs alternating at each double spot, and trying to figure out where to fit some UVb bulbs, have CFL and looking at t5. The 2xCFLs are sidelighting, hanging about 6-8" below the t5 units. The LED sits a couple inches above the t5s, so it will leak heavily onto each t5 footprint, while also making its own down the middle.
Veg is really just a big 125W CFL (6500K I think, though it looks more like 5500K to me) in a tiny 2x3x3 tent, small to keep the reflective surface close, leaking photons is giving away money. The 15w leds are hanging in here over some seedlings, but at more like 12", making the seedlings look more green than blue. (i have a 15w blue and a 15w magenta or full spec)
hope that helps,
mpp

Cool man, thanks for elaborating on your setup, and diagram. That was good to read. I like the way you've got your lights set up.

The problem for me is, I bought the 48" fixture so I'm always trying to figure out how to somehow supplement around the big obstruction which is the light itself, heh.

I wish I had worked at a smaller scale in retrospect, as I often found myself wishing I could separate the two 4-bulb sections of my lamp so they could be at different angles. Ohhhh well. Gotta do what I gotta do with what I've got, for now at least.

It seems like the 15w Advanced LEDs could work if i put one at each end pointing inward maybe. Amazing how pricey LED units still are, though. Still, if they work well, one in each corner pointing inward even would be good...

... Damn this is an expensive hobby. Looking into resources to see if I can swing two of those now.. haha.

 

[BlueB]

are we talking led's or T5's? without a reflector, whatever light is shining upward, even if it hits mylar, is likely being bounced right back down onto the tube it was emitted from, Im not even thinking about whatever kinda "tube" this guy has, just saying that reflectors are precicely angled to get the light that shines up, to be reflected back downward AROUND the tube to avoid re-strike. His theory makes sense, I just think its less than optimal and he's losing some of the power available from the t5's by removing the reflectors and raising the light to increase spectrum blending. I dont think spectrum blend would such an important issue if the tubes were blended properly.

Ive seen lots of pics here (not gonna call anyone out) that show an 8 bulb, with 2 blues on one side and 2 reds on the other, or right next to each other. Alternate tubes and thats all you need!

Yeah, I'm talkin LEDs. They have a viewing angle of around 60 degrees, so that's why this guy took the reflectors off, probably not needed. T5's have a viewing angle of 360 degrees, so the reflector for them makes sense. You could always put the LEDs even with the tips of the T5 reflectors and that way none of the LED light would be cut off by the T5's reflector getting in the way.

 

[AltarNation]

Alright I grabbed two of the all red models, which I'll be adding to my 10-bulb T5 setup this round. Thinking I can raise just the front two corners of my T5 unit by a few inches to give the LED's some space... that way the back fluoros are still as close as possible. I hope I can see noticeable growth differences in the areas that are getting more light from the LEDs etc... then maybe I can move them around a bit to compensate for positioning. Or move the plants.

What will LEDs do if they're too close? Straight burn, or do the leaves bleach out or what?

 

[Undercover Cop]

ok then it makes sense, they're focused beam where t5's are omni-directional. A reflector for LED's would could be to either diffuse the light or prob to focus the spread to a tighter beam. taking the reflector off to allow the beam to widen prob would blend the spectrum better. Ah its all so clear now lol.

 

[BlueB]

Cool man, thanks for elaborating on your setup, and diagram. That was good to read. I like the way you've got your lights set up.

The problem for me is, I bought the 48" fixture so I'm always trying to figure out how to somehow supplement around the big obstruction which is the light itself, heh.

I wish I had worked at a smaller scale in retrospect, as I often found myself wishing I could separate the two 4-bulb sections of my lamp so they could be at different angles. Ohhhh well. Gotta do what I gotta do with what I've got, for now at least.

It seems like the 15w Advanced LEDs could work if i put one at each end pointing inward maybe. Amazing how pricey LED units still are, though. Still, if they work well, one in each corner pointing inward even would be good...

... Damn this is an expensive hobby. Looking into resources to see if I can swing two of those now.. haha.

I did the same thing. Bought a couple of 4' fixtures and now it makes it kinda hard to blend in other light sources. I'm seriously considering buying some more single bulb T5 fixtures so that I can blend in some other light sources. I really like T5 tubes for the fact that they put out such a balanced source of blue light. I'm starting to feel more and more that in order to get in enough red, 660nm LEDs are going to have to be supplemented in somewhere.

 

[AltarNation]

Since it's valentine's day, let me just say I fucking love this T5 growing group! Buncha brave pioneers are we. Rock on fellow growers.

 

[AltarNation]

I did the same thing. Bought a couple of 4' fixtures and now it makes it kinda hard to blend in other light sources. I'm seriously considering buying some more single bulb T5 fixtures so that I can blend in some other light sources. I really like T5 tubes for the fact that they put out such a balanced source of blue light. I'm starting to feel more and more that in order to get in enough red, 660nm LEDs are going to have to be supplemented in somewhere.

I am hoping it works! The only ways to work around the big 4-foot fixture I've come up with up til now was to either a) rig up some sort of "christmas light like" diy string of LEDs and run them amongst the T5 bulbs under the structure... or b) flip the T5's into a vertical position and add a high-power LED unit from above.

But I like this third option, of hopefully using small quantity of these weaker 15w units like this. I hope they can spread enough to get some light to the middle of the 4'x2' canopy.

 

[BlueB]

I hope I can see noticeable growth differences in the areas that are getting more light from the LEDs etc... then maybe I can move them around a bit to compensate for positioning. Or move the plants.

I'm sure you will, keep us posted please.

What will LEDs do if they're too close? Straight burn, or do the leaves bleach out or what?

I wouldn't worry that much since they are only 15w. I think it's more of a blending issue that will cause the burning you speak of. For instance, if corals that are grown in aquariums get way more red light then they should, they will start to "bleach out" as well. I think it has to do with all red and not enough blue getting to that particular leaf to cause this burning, bleaching effect. I would play with the bulb distance moving it closer and away to try and get a proper light blend so that your plants don't have "red only" light getting to them anywhere. It's probably a good thing that these LEDs have a 120 viewing angle for your purposes, it's unfortunate you couldn't just drill some holes in the middle of your T5 fixture and install them there.

 

[AltarNation]

I'm sure you will, keep us posted please.


I wouldn't worry that much since they are only 15w. I think it's more of a blending issue that will cause the burning you speak of. For instance, if corals that are grown in aquariums get way more red light then they should, they will start to "bleach out" as well. I think it has to do with all red and not enough blue getting to that particular leaf to cause this burning, bleaching effect. I would play with the bulb distance moving it closer and away to try and get a proper light blend so that your plants don't have "red only" light getting to them anywhere. It's probably a good thing that these LEDs have a 120 viewing angle for your purposes, it's unfortunate you couldn't just drill some holes in the middle of your T5 fixture and install them there.

Yeah, right on. I will be messing with it a good bit. Thanks for the info on the bleaching and what not. I will definitely be keeping y'all posted and will do progress pics once I get it set up with the LEDs.

I like the 120 viewing angle. I didn't even notice that before I ordered it, haha. But yes, I think it would work well for my application as I'm supplementing widely and don't necessarily want to focus it much.

Can't wait to play with new toys. I'm such a child...