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Number of Stars in the Universe
- Thread starter HereticHero
- Start date
Nitegazer
Well-Known Member
Given the potential of alien life, would it really matter wether we can physically visit each other? A phone call would be just as nice. 300 billion stars in the Milky Way gives us pretty good odds of finding life more nearby, too, particularly if you subscribe to Seed Theory. There are even 15,000 stars in our local (100 ly) neighborhood.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
But that raises Fermi's Paradox: So where is everybody?? cn
Nitegazer
Well-Known Member
Personally, I assume one of two possiblities (not sure which factor plays into the matter more)
1- What we think of as intelligence is a very narrow view. We're looking for entities that are too similar to us.
2- We have the right idea of what intelligence is, but we just aren't as bright as we think we are, so we haven't figured out how to really communicate yet.
1- What we think of as intelligence is a very narrow view. We're looking for entities that are too similar to us.
2- We have the right idea of what intelligence is, but we just aren't as bright as we think we are, so we haven't figured out how to really communicate yet.
evolving... oops almost forgot then again they could be smarter than we are and actually read AND internalized the memo about visitation from cultures with better technology not working out for the indigenous peoples
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I favor a darker take on your #2:
a) We see nobody.
b) That suggests they're hiding, if they are indeed there.
c) Hiding is expensive.
d) So by being the noisy incontinent equivalent of a newborn, we're targets.
e) For what- I don't know. But the smart ones are the quiet ones.
f) which suggests we'll be quiet ourselves, soon enough.
cn
<edit> Missed your post, c2g ... and I agree.
a) We see nobody.
b) That suggests they're hiding, if they are indeed there.
c) Hiding is expensive.
d) So by being the noisy incontinent equivalent of a newborn, we're targets.
e) For what- I don't know. But the smart ones are the quiet ones.
f) which suggests we'll be quiet ourselves, soon enough.
cn
<edit> Missed your post, c2g ... and I agree.
Depends on the type, active or passive.
Nitegazer
Well-Known Member
I think we would only be potentially harmed if we were either a threat or had something worth taking. Human civilization has only been around 15,000 years or so. We're barely crawling yet.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Considering that we monkeybabies have technologies for both, I'd have to say both will be needed. And both would be expensive for us ... imagine the cost of squelching all EM emissions and then optically masking our surface activities. Unless or until a truly superior masking tech comes along, both will be pricy imo.
of course, a superior masking tech probably can be cross-engineered into an even better detection tech. We should have been octopus-types. Octopodes have a natural advantage in an arms race. cn
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
At the same time, we are saddled with purely Terrestrial concepts of predation. The threat might be of a sort only imagined by drug-addled sci-fi scribes ... cn
Nitegazer
Well-Known Member
You make me think of Solaris... I love Lem (not sure if he took drugs).
Maybe aliens have advanced to the point that they know if it's a good idea to trim fan leaves or not
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
...while I'm thinking more along the lines of Greg Bear. The Forge of God and its sequel Anvil of Stars detail a space environment that is unfriendly to anyone who doesn't learn QUICK to keep it quiet. cn
Yes so what might our planet have that 'they' might want? If they are capable of efficient long distance space travel do you really think they'd have much concern about wiping out the ant hill surrounding the raw resource they want?
That's the dual edged sword of technology. Sufficiently low tech civilization is passive cloaking. Oh call yourself a monkeybaby I am not completely convinced that we are not a product of iterative design.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Very probably not. Planets are at the bottom of an energy well. The REAL resources are in the asteroid and Kuiper belts, just there for the harvesting. When we send explorers/homesteaders out into the Kuiperlands, and don't find evidence of past mining/grazing, that would go far toward supporting the claim that sapient, technical life is very rare, or has been.
To coin a metaphor, humans first lived in caves. Our interest in caves today is scientific and aesthetic. I imagine a mature spacefaring species will feel the same way about planetary surfaces ... nice to visit, with suitable protective gear.
Even low-tech civilizations would very probably have spectroscopic "tells" from agriculture and inefficient smelting, etc. It must be assumed that an advanced and interested alien culture would have optics several light-minutes across, which would allow imaging our planet down to a resolution of a picoarcsecond. That's good for five-meter resolution at a standoff of a hundred light-years. cn
Yup that's certainly true from our current level of knowledge. But what is impossible for the science of our time is the backward superstitions of another. I don't think we can reliably say that the, 'REAL resources are x'. Only that our definition of real resources are there.
That was what the word 'sufficiently' was supposed to convey. We are certainly easily detectable now but at some point in our past we were less easily separated from the background noise around us. Although I think security through obscurity is a failure as an only security model it's an important first ring and should be leveraged, to bad that many scientists believe we are most likely the furthest advanced form of life and have no need to be somewhat circumspect about our existence. Pray god they are right.
I keep thinking about youngsters getting their first place. So they have a party, crank up the music, everyone gets drunk and behaves bad, loudly. It is priceless to see the first visit they get from LEO telling them to knock it off. I'm waiting for our first visit when we are told to knock off the obnoxious neighbor crap
Oh yes and finally hasn't 'science' and/or religion had the, 'that's impossible' thing thrown back in their faces enough that they might stop being so sure they have a complete handle on things? I try to keep an open mind.
