Existential Nihilism, a new form of freedom.

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. With respect to the universe, existential nihilism posits that a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without inherant purpose and unlikely to change in the totality of existence. According to the theory, each individual is an isolated being "thrown" into the universe, barred from knowing "why", yet compelled to invent meaning. The inherent meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism, where one can potentially create his or her own subjective "meaning" or "purpose". Of all types of nihilism, existential nihilism gets the most literary and philosophical attention.

The idea that meaning and values are without foundation is a form of nihilism, and the existential response to that idea is noting that meaning is not "a matter of contemplative theory", but instead, "a consequence of engagement and commitment". The theory purports to describe the human situation to create a life outlook and create meaning, which has been summarized as,

"Strut, fret, and delude ourselves as we may, our lives are of no significance, and it is futile to seek or to affirm meaning where none can be found." Existential nihilists claim that, to be honest, one must face the absurdity of existence, that he/she will eventually die, and that both religion and metaphysics are simply results of the fear of death.

"There is no justification for life, but also no reason not to live. Those who claim to find inherent meaning in their lives are either dishonest or deluded, they fail to face up to the harsh reality of the human situation. Those who aknowledge the absurdity of existence, and decide to give their life meaning despite that fact, are the truly honest ones." -Donald A. Crosby
 

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
"For those who fear future non-existence, should contemplate their past non-existence. If we allow ourselves to contemplate our past non-existence, we might realize that our fears of returning to it... simply fall away"

-Lucretius
 

Nitegazer

Well-Known Member
I'm sure that view makes Sartre spin in his grave (recognizing, of course, that is is fully dead :mrgreen:).
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
copy and paste king strikes again.

i am looking forward to zaehet finally completing his philosophy courses, maybe putting down some original thought once in a while.
 

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
Im sorry that you are offended that i wished to share some valuable information i happened to stumble across. Hmmm, i wonder why it offends you, for if it didn't there would be no need for the comment above.

Correct me if im wrong, but the fear of accepting the absurdity of existence i think still holds its grip on you, and you have yet to relinquish wishful theological/spiritual/metaphysical thinking.

^This is my theory on why you took the trouble to reply to this thread.
 

Dislexicmidget2021

Well-Known Member
He insists on the probability of being right.It makes more sense to keep a perspective that is unnattached to permanence in dogma or ideals as everything changes ceaselessly, object and subject dose not apply,in the end none of this will matter.Its up to you if you hold it in negative context throughout life or if you choose to give it a positive meaning.Some people choose to be the critics,mostly because they hold no real understanding of what they are observing,and have already a set way of standards to hold and criticize whatever dose not add up to there own perceived set of standards.
 

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
^Couldnt have said it any better myself, +Rep Dis.

This is just merely the closest approximation to truth, and honesty with myself is what i base my meaning and purpose from.
 

rmx

Member

  • With respect to the universe, existential nihilism posits that a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without inherant purpose and unlikely to change in the totality of existence


This has been my view for years. We're just cockroaches, really. A lot of people praise the human race and are completely ignorant to anything outside of their front door. I look at the world in disbelief. I'm constantly amazed at just how depraved and brutal 'humanity' is. For all our supposed 'intelligence' and 'technological advancements', we sure manage to fuck the natural world over... And over again. This is our home, this mysterious, beautiful, diverse, bountiful planet which feeds us, and keeps us alive. And how do we fuckign repay it? By butchering almost every single animal in existence, by destroying millions of acres of land, raping her of her natural resources, dumping pollutants into the air and sea and creating ugly concrete structures and roads everywhere.

The way I see it is we're in for a short ride. Enjoy it while you can. Listen to the birds sing, try to feel the world, try to connect with everything, not just your friends and family. There's an entire planet of life out there, it's fucking beautiful! We're all in this together - regardless of species. You see that spider in the corner, spinning its web? It's keeping busy, it's doing it's thing, it's making a home, starting a family, trying to feed itself... Trying to get by and stay alive... Basically - doing the exact same damn thing as you and I, and it's going to end up just as dead as you and I and leave equally as small a mark in the sea of time.

I always liked this one by none other than the brilliant Einstein:

A person starts to live when he can live outside himself.


Edit: Just to expand a bit, I always think of soldiers in World War 2. At one point, these guys were dug into trenches, fearful of their lives. They had loved ones at home, they had families. Their lives were their everything. They existed, they had a story, a past and a future. A man sat in a trench, soaked and exhausted and hoping he didn't die. That was that his life, his moment and his time. Now, all those years later, he's gone, his story and his presence, which at one point was the foundation of his very existence is lost and absolutely irrelevant. I might as well be that man, just in a different era and in different circumstances. My life is everything to me now, but to you - it's nothing. You don't know me, you could care less about my existence. One day my life will end, and thus ends my story, which in turn will be lost, just as his was.
 

Daxus

Active Member
Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. With respect to the universe, existential nihilism posits that a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without inherant purpose and unlikely to change in the totality of existence. According to the theory, each individual is an isolated being "thrown" into the universe, barred from knowing "why", yet compelled to invent meaning. The inherent meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism, where one can potentially create his or her own subjective "meaning" or "purpose". Of all types of nihilism, existential nihilism gets the most literary and philosophical attention.

The idea that meaning and values are without foundation is a form of nihilism, and the existential response to that idea is noting that meaning is not "a matter of contemplative theory", but instead, "a consequence of engagement and commitment". The theory purports to describe the human situation to create a life outlook and create meaning, which has been summarized as,

"Strut, fret, and delude ourselves as we may, our lives are of no significance, and it is futile to seek or to affirm meaning where none can be found." Existential nihilists claim that, to be honest, one must face the absurdity of existence, that he/she will eventually die, and that both religion and metaphysics are simply results of the fear of death.

"There is no justification for life, but also no reason not to live. Those who claim to find inherent meaning in their lives are either dishonest or deluded, they fail to face up to the harsh reality of the human situation. Those who aknowledge the absurdity of existence, and decide to give their life meaning despite that fact, are the truly honest ones." -Donald A. Crosby
I do really love Nihilism, but I keep running into weird problems with it in my head, whenever I begin to contemplate the situation. For example it posits that we are insignificant, which I won't deny is true, but I won't confirm either. I have this weird, obsession I guess, with being unable to commit to either side of anything. I have this deep unspeakably powerful feeling that because of how easily our senses can be "tricked" or "altered", at least to the best of my knowledge, that it's impossible to be absolutely sure of anything. Because of that I tend to feel I should base everything I know on what I've experienced and claim it as such to the best of my ability, but not dismiss any lingering doubt. Both science and religion tend to fall into a big maybe pile for me.

So even if something seems to be one way, extremely so, for example my coat is blue. I can't be completely sure it's blue, even though that's how I perceive it consistently and always have, so I have to leave some doubt. If someone told me it was teal I'd want to have an in depth discussion with them about it and why they perceive it that way.

Same thing comes down with Religion. I land agnostic every single time, because I just can't be sure there's not SOMETHING there. I dunno why but lately especially I'm really big on "I don't know, here's how I see it, let's discuss why you don't agree and see if we can co-exist peacefully and learn from each other".

I really wish I had some time and money to donate towards Philosophy courses or even independent study right now.
 

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
Rmx, plus Rep man, i admire your courage and the way you perceive life. When dealing with nihilism there are two ways to see it, you can be pessamistic about it, or optimistic about it. I personally prefer happiness to hopelessness, so i choose the optimistic point of view. Very beautifully written my friend.

Dax, I know exactly how you feel, as i am certain of nothing. I merely have ideas that are the closest approximation to the truth (because there is no truth). The scientific method is the only way for me to grasp any sort of actual knowedge about something. The fact that the smallest peice of matter the human eye has been able to detect with the help of machines is an undenyable truth that slaps us in the face every time we look at it:

There are these small strings, sometimes they connect to make a circle, sometimes they are just a string... and they vibrate. Science is still trying to figure out what the fuck they are, and as of right now there are only theories.

It can be tough sometimes i think, for us to let go of our emotional baggage and look at the big picture of things. From the supposed beggining of the universe some 14 billion revolutions of the earth around the sun to now... human existence is not even a blip on the time scale, smaller than a spec. If we were to assume that this is the first time in the history of existence that the universe has created human life... eventually, we all must come to terms with the fact that all humans will cease to exist, that it is just a matter of time.

Our sun will die, the earth will be obliterated, and all traces of or existence will only be able to be traced back to atoms that used to be a part of something really fuckin cool (imo) Even if we do come together as race, and figure out a way to obtain intergalactic space travel and find a way to harvest evergy/resources from other planets, we still cant last forever. The universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate. If this keeps happening (evidence shows no signs of the universes expansion slowing down) the universe will turn ino an isolated, and extremely cold place. Who knows really, maybe humans will find a way through technology to live forever though nanomachines or something or another.

The only reason dinasoaurs hold any relevence at all in the time line of existence is because we are here to remeber them. Eventually, there will be no minds left to remember our existence... hence making everything we do pointless. I understand that there are things in our individual lives that give us a sense of importance, and meaning... but that makes no difference to this beautiful, harsh, chaotic and unforgiving universe.

Human existence is smaller than a spec on the universal timeline, and eventually time will surpass us and we will be forgotten.

I'm really hoping that science comes out with a new discovery before my death, because i would really like to know if we live in a multiverse, or if we can create a machine that can detect different demensions... but when you look at the horrably sad state humans have made out of this world and of themselves... we can let the 8 ball say it.

Outcome does not look good.
 

Daxus

Active Member
Rmx, plus Rep man, i admire your courage and the way you perceive life. When dealing with nihilism there are two ways to see it, you can be pessamistic about it, or optimistic about it. I personally prefer happiness to hopelessness, so i choose the optimistic point of view. Very beautifully written my friend.

Dax, I know exactly how you feel, as i am certain of nothing. I merely have ideas that are the closest approximation to the truth (because there is no truth). The scientific method is the only way for me to grasp any sort of actual knowedge about something. The fact that the smallest peice of matter the human eye has been able to detect with the help of machines is an undenyable truth that slaps us in the face every time we look at it:

There are these small strings, sometimes they connect to make a circle, sometimes they are just a string... and they vibrate. Science is still trying to figure out what the fuck they are, and as of right now there are only theories.

It can be tough sometimes i think, for us to let go of our emotional baggage and look at the big picture of things. From the supposed beggining of the universe some 14 billion revolutions of the earth around the sun to now... human existence is not even a blip on the time scale, smaller than a spec. If we were to assume that this is the first time in the history of existence that the universe has created human life... eventually, we all must come to terms with the fact that all humans will cease to exist, that it is just a matter of time.

Our sun will die, the earth will be obliterated, and all traces of or existence will only be able to be traced back to atoms that used to be a part of something really fuckin cool (imo) Even if we do come together as race, and figure out a way to obtain intergalactic space travel and find a way to harvest evergy/resources from other planets, we still cant last forever. The universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate. If this keeps happening (evidence shows no signs of the universes expansion slowing down) the universe will turn ino an isolated, and extremely cold place. Who knows really, maybe humans will find a way through technology to live forever though nanomachines or something or another.

The only reason dinasoaurs hold any relevence at all in the time line of existence is because we are here to remeber them. Eventually, there will be no minds left to remember our existence... hence making everything we do pointless. I understand that there are things in our individual lives that give us a sense of importance, and meaning... but that makes no difference to this beautiful, harsh, chaotic and unforgiving universe.

Human existence is smaller than a spec on the universal timeline, and eventually time will surpass us and we will be forgotten.

I'm really hoping that science comes out with a new discovery before my death, because i would really like to know if we live in a multiverse, or if we can create a machine that can detect different demensions... but when you look at the horrably sad state humans have made out of this world and of themselves... we can let the 8 ball say it.

Outcome does not look good.
What if it's not just a matter of time though? What if what we think is going to happen isn't an inevitability, science is occasionally wrong after all, which I think circles back to an interesting argument I've seen applied to global warming.

If the outcome is unknown is it better to assume the worst and make potentially unnecessary moves to counteract the potential bad result? Or is it better to assume the best and just live life blissful and happy until you find out?

Does that itself rely solely on the purpose of our existence? But if our existence has no purpose, if it's all chaos, what's the best move to make? Is there one or is it best to just "live"? Perhaps it's better to live than survive?

Just looking for some answers in a world that answers none of them at all.
 

rmx

Member
What if it's not just a matter of time though? What if what we think is going to happen isn't an inevitability, science is occasionally wrong after all, which I think circles back to an interesting argument I've seen applied to global warming.

If the outcome is unknown is it better to assume the worst and make potentially unnecessary moves to counteract the potential bad result? Or is it better to assume the best and just live life blissful and happy until you find out?

Does that itself rely solely on the purpose of our existence? But if our existence has no purpose, if it's all chaos, what's the best move to make? Is there one or is it best to just "live"? Perhaps it's better to live than survive?

Just looking for some answers in a world that answers none of them at all.
Daxus, I definitely know what you mean. It's hard to define 'insignificance', and after reading your input, I'd retract my earlier use of the word. It's not insignificant if we do something that harms or helps another person, or causes an even bigger change in the world around us. Many men and women throughout history have shaped the present world - their actions are still felt hundreds, even thousands of years later. So it's 'significant' - at least while we're here to witness the cause and effect. I suppose a better way to say it would be that whilst these events are significant to us here, now, and in the present - they will inevitably fade into obscurity. When we're long gone, no one will even know, but to those who were there (here) and experienced it - it was significant.

By all means, we should "live" rather than exist. I love the idea of rebirth, the cosmos, an afterlife - I don't know. I try to stay open minded. I don't subscribe to any religion, but I'm definitely not so narrow minded as to just think that when we die, everything's black - although the logical side of me screams "That's it! You die and rot, you're gone!" The 'spiritual' side of me wants to believe that death is actually the gateway to another world. Who knows? Really, who the hell can say!? The universe is infinite? Black holes, the cosmos, other planets, other planes of existence might just be waiting for us. We shouldn't anchor our thoughts with logic when we know so very little about what's out there, beyond this relatively tiny, mysterious planet of ours.

Zaehet - thanks my friend, this is a great topic. I love to discuss this sort of thing. We're all probably a million miles off the mark of what really happens, but damn, ain't it fun to throw our thoughts around?




  • "Our sun will die, the earth will be obliterated, and all traces of or existence will only be able to be traced back to atoms that used to be a part of something really fuckin cool (imo) Even if we do come together as race, and figure out a way to obtain intergalactic space travel and find a way to harvest evergy/resources from other planets, we still cant last forever. The universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate. If this keeps happening (evidence shows no signs of the universes expansion slowing down) the universe will turn ino an isolated, and extremely cold place. Who knows really, maybe humans will find a way through technology to live forever though nanomachines or something or another."

    That's why I'm happy that I'm part of this generation... Because I think the generation that comes after us are going to be faced with some terrifying prospects. I really hate to overdo the 'hippy' thing, but I swear, sometimes I can just feel some really negative energy or vibe in the world. Just a sense that impending doom, or global catastrophe is far closer than we'd ever imagined. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if, in our lifetime, we experienced some kind of 'minor to medium' scale natural disaster. Whether it's caused by humans finally 'breaking' the planet, or by something colliding with us, I think it would be enough to have a serious impact on the balance and 'harmony' of our world. If it doesn't happen in my life time, I'd say it'll happen within the next three generations. Although I must admit, I kind of find the thought of death by 10,000,000 ton asteroid impact eerily beautiful. Maybe that's what we need though? Just like the dinosaurs? Maybe we're destined to be wiped out, to hard reset the plant, let her regenerate and start anew, fresh and from the beginning once again.

    Keep replying, this makes great bedtime reading
    • :razz:








 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
I had a favorite philosophy I studied for about a decade. It was integrated with a lot of science and math that made a lot of sense to me. One hypothesis that it put forth was that some planets in their Goldilocks's Zones will start life which would evolve similarly to the natural selection process we see on Earth. That life would eventually become complex enough to become sentient/conscious and start to produce external tools and technology. Given enough time (and enough fortune to get through their nuclear-decision threshold), they would become independent of their mother planet and perhaps populate other local parts of their galaxy either via space-stations and/or creating their own planets (and perhaps even stars) within their Goldilocks's Zones. With time, their technology could become so advanced that they could control nature to an amazing extent: perhaps attaining biological immortality and indestructibility, exploding gravity units for near-instant communication among advanced civilizations throughout the universe (like a huge advanced cosmic internet), Using Einstein-Rosen Bridges to pump energy and matter around the cosmos to make sure the universe would not go into Big Rip or Big Crunch and end conscious life. This hypothesis even speculated that sentience/consciousness is a missing component to TOE, and some earlier civilizations have already reached this state billions of years ago.

This wild philosophy is virtually the opposite stance of nihilism with it's claim that sentient life has a commanding purpose in this universe/omniverse; to eventually control, direct and help balance the cosmos. Now, while this is speculation, it makes sense to a degree from what we can currently observe. I would still live a beautiful life with self-directed purpose if this isn't the case and we have no intrinsic meaning, but I can't seem to shake the idea that it may be on to something...
 

Daxus

Active Member
I had a favorite philosophy I studied for about a decade. It was integrated with a lot of science and math that made a lot of sense to me. One hypothesis that it put forth was that some planets in their Goldilocks's Zones will start life which would evolve similarly to the natural selection process we see on Earth. That life would eventually become complex enough to become sentient/conscious and start to produce external tools and technology. Given enough time (and enough fortune to get through their nuclear-decision threshold), they would become independent of their mother planet and perhaps populate other local parts of their galaxy either via space-stations and/or creating their own planets (and perhaps even stars) within their Goldilocks's Zones. With time, their technology could become so advanced that they could control nature to an amazing extent: perhaps attaining biological immortality and indestructibility, exploding gravity units for near-instant communication among advanced civilizations throughout the universe (like a huge advanced cosmic internet), Using Einstein-Rosen Bridges to pump energy and matter around the cosmos to make sure the universe would not go into Big Rip or Big Crunch and end conscious life. This hypothesis even speculated that sentience/consciousness is a missing component to TOE, and some earlier civilizations have already reached this state billions of years ago.

This wild philosophy is virtually the opposite stance of nihilism with it's claim that sentient life has a commanding purpose in this universe/omniverse; to eventually control, direct and help balance the cosmos. Now, while this is speculation, it makes sense to a degree from what we can currently observe. I would still live a beautiful life with self-directed purpose if this isn't the case and we have no intrinsic meaning, but I can't seem to shake the idea that it may be on to something...
That's a really interesting perspective...every time I turn around I'm questioning what I previously thought! bongsmilie Maybe my beliefs should be centered around doubt of everything.
 

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
What if it's not just a matter of time though? What if what we think is going to happen isn't an inevitability, science is occasionally wrong after all, which I think circles back to an interesting argument I've seen applied to global warming.

If the outcome is unknown is it better to assume the worst and make potentially unnecessary moves to counteract the potential bad result? Or is it better to assume the best and just live life blissful and happy until you find out?

Does that itself rely solely on the purpose of our existence? But if our existence has no purpose, if it's all chaos, what's the best move to make? Is there one or is it best to just "live"? Perhaps it's better to live than survive?

Just looking for some answers in a world that answers none of them at all.
Extremely insightful and thought provoking questions Dax, im impressed. When i speak about no purpose, im talking about no inherent purpose... like nothing gives us meaning or purpose. The only thing that gives us meaning and purpose is ourselves, and how we choose to give it that meaning. I think most people who cling to metaphysics/theology/spirituality have a really hard time understanding that we give ourselves purpose, or maybe they just cant except that. Dealing with the absurdity of existence is extremely painful at the start, but it allows a sense of freedom within ourselves that i cannot quite describe, it allows us to be completely honest with ourselves... rather than pretending/lying to ourselves to make ourselves feel better, we gain a sense of accomplishment, courage, pride, freedom, complete honesty, because instead of giving ourselves false truths, we embrace the absurdity of our existence and continue to live happily (or some unfortunates decide to live unhappily) in spite the fact that our lives are inherently meaningless. Since we have gotten past this awakening, we can now move towards the bigger and better parts of our lives, living in the moment, living for happiness and to make others happy, etc. etc.

I completely agree with you, that science is wrong, a lot! Even Hawkins was wrong when he said that information is destroyed in a back hole, it took him 25 years to come to terms within himself.. but he held a conference and openly stated that he was wrong, and that he is going to use this information to further his study about black holes. And you are also right, we could be completely wrong about what we think we know... but it doesn't change the fact that our sun will die, nothing can change that, and as we look into the farthest corners of the universe, it keeps telling us, reminding us over and over again... nothing lasts forever, that everything is in a constant flux of change.

I think if the outcome is unknown, it is merely the best to assume only that which can carry the burden of proof to the highest degree of what we can know. Like how we know stars die, we know entire species can get wiped out in a matter of days. I think the question about assuming the worst or assuming the best depends on our individual preferences. Personally, i just like to live life as happily as i can trying my best to not do anything that impacts the environment negatively.

I think the next step in human evolution is our choice, we hold the key to unlock the door. I think the first step is when everyone can come to terms with absurdity, and still find enough meaning in ourselves to continue to live. I think once/if this step is made on a mass scale, the sudden realization of what we have been doing to ourselves and our planet will hit us, and hit hard. If we could only understand the absurdity of the human condition, i think we would finally make the step we should have been making a long time ago to help everyone in the world be healthy, have a place to sleep, food to eat, clean water to drink for everyone. This is all possable and more, but everyone is so worried about what to believe, its like we are all still children, its like the human race is in its child stage, arguing and fighting over things that hold no relevance over what is actually important in the world.

From my own experiences, ive come up with a theory for humans capacity to change.

1. The hardest, is to change because you want to. Have you ever tried quitting smoking cigarettes, or cannabis for that matter? It is extremely degrading to my ego, when i would promise myself i was going to make the change, yet i couldn't do it. It was so hard, so very hard to change because i wanted to rather than when i HAVE to.

2. This gets a little easier, but still pretty tough. This form of change happens when something in our lives gets to a point where if we don't change, our mental or physical health would be in jeopardy. For instance, when you find out you are starting to get lung cancer, it is much easier to quit smoking now that you have a more powerful incentive to quit, because it might save your life. And isn't it funny, that it sometimes takes the fear of death to make us decide to change?

3. The last is the easiest, this form of change happens when you are forced to change. For example, say you get put on probation, and by law, if you get caught smoking cannabis you are going to be spending some time behind bars that people made to keep humans in. This is a massive amount of incentive, i cant think of a time where change came easier for me... i quit smoking cannabis cold turkey straight up, easiest change ive ever made lol.

Now when you take a look at this theory of change, and instead of presenting it as individual change... and take it to a much larger level, mass population change, you can see that the concepts are very similar. Its hard to keep hold onto the thought of hope for humanity, when you understand fully what it takes for people to change... let alone a mass population to change. It seems to me, that the only way a population will change is from numbers 2. and 3. with 3. topping out at most probable. Im thinking that some sort of mass catastrophe must occur for larger populations to find the courage and incentive to change.

This is very sad, i know, i agree... it sucks. I wish it wasn't like this i really do, but this is why its so hard for me to hold onto hope for humanity to find the key to their own evolution. To put aside our quarreling, arguments and disagreements and focus on what is really important for humanities continued survival, and happiness.

Like i said before... i think i'll let the 8 ball answer this one too.

Tyler, really awesome idea, plus rep if my button wasnt broken!

The 'spiritual' side of me wants to believe that death is actually the gateway to another world. Who knows? Really, who the hell can say!? The universe is infinite? Black holes, the cosmos, other planets, other planes of existence might just be waiting for us. We shouldn't anchor our thoughts with logic when we know so very little about what's out there, beyond this relatively tiny, mysterious planet of ours.
I too have a guilty pleasure... sometimes, when im alone, i like to pretend that when i die ill get to pick whatever existence i want in my next life... im gonna pick star wars!

But the difference between this and metaphysics/theology/spirituality/religion, is that i don't pretend to know... i understand that i am just pretending, so instead of lying to myself i can be honest with myself.

Honesty with myself is what i base the meaning and purpose of my existence on, i am comfortable with this answer-

I DON'T KNOW
 
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