organic? salt? wtf?

[Total Head]

my understanding of organics is still in the developmental stages, but i thought i had a grasp on the salt based vs organic deal.

3 weeks ago i planted 4 seeds in happy frog soil the way i always do, watered them with tap the way i always do, and plants appeared like they always do.

the plants have generally been healthy but a few days ago i noticed growth had slowed, and i had this white crystalline substance on the surface of the soil. i looked under a scope and sure as shit it's crystals. i tasted the stuff and it's salty and insanely bitter. i also have quite a large amount of this salt buildup around the side drainage holes.

leaves are yellowing, tips are browning, and 2 of the plants are really taking a shit. now i know the solution to this is a flush, but i'm quite puzzled as to how this salt got there. it had to be from the soil because i used the same bag of soil to repot a friend's aloe plant and his soil has the same shit on it, and he lives miles away and uses different water.

the pic of the soil doesn't do justice but if you look at the drainage hole you'll see what i mean. ignore the fucked-uptedness of the actual plant because it's actually a mutant that topped itself on day 5 of growing and doesn't even have enough leaves to show what i mean. i don't kill mutants.

why would i have such a salt issue with organic soil? bad batch? contamination? is it just me?

 

[doc111]

my understanding of organics is still in the developmental stages, but i thought i had a grasp on the salt based vs organic deal.

3 weeks ago i planted 4 seeds in happy frog soil the way i always do, watered them with tap the way i always do, and plants appeared like they always do.

the plants have generally been healthy but a few days ago i noticed growth had slowed, and i had this white crystalline substance on the surface of the soil. i looked under a scope and sure as shit it's crystals. i tasted the stuff and it's salty and insanely bitter. i also have quite a large amount of this salt buildup around the side drainage holes.

leaves are yellowing, tips are browning, and 2 of the plants are really taking a shit. now i know the solution to this is a flush, but i'm quite puzzled as to how this salt got there. it had to be from the soil because i used the same bag of soil to repot a friend's aloe plant and his soil has the same shit on it, and he lives miles away and uses different water.

the pic of the soil doesn't do justice but if you look at the drainage hole you'll see what i mean. ignore the fucked-uptedness of the actual plant because it's actually a mutant that topped itself on day 5 of growing and doesn't even have enough leaves to show what i mean. i don't kill mutants.

why would i have such a salt issue with organic soil? bad batch? contamination? is it just me?

Very intersting.........

Not sure what would cause that. I also use Happy Frog and use hardly any "salt based" nutes until they've been in soil for 2-3 weeks and I sometimes notice this same type of buildup around my drainage holes. I use R/O water too, so I use Cal/Mag with every watering. I always attributed it to the Cal/Mag.

Even "organic" nutrients must first be broken down into ionic/mineral form (salt) before the plant can take them up. It COULD be a buildup caused by an excess of "salts" broken down by your soil microorganisms. I have no idea if this is the case...........just a thought.

 

[+ WitchDoctor +]

What nutrients are you using? Are you growing in straight Happy Frog or with amendments?

 

[Nullis]

Check the TDS of your tap water. It might just be a mineral 'crust' forming as a result of hard water.

 

[Total Head]

straight happy frog, no amendments, and just tap water. i don't have a tds meter but my ec meter doesn't even register a reading on my tap water. for hahas i checked the ec of the runoff and it was 1.6 which seems awfully high for a plant that's never been fed anything. i'm thinking the soil had to become contaminated somehow. i've been checking all sorts of gardening forums and no one else is complaining of this with happy frog. maybe some asshole spilled something on the pallet of dirt at the grow store or something. i've been using happy frog for years to germ my seeds in and i've never seen such a thing. not even when i used foxfarm or dyna gro nutes did i ever have this severe of a salt buildup in such a short time, and certainly never at 3 weeks from seed in plain soil.

i'd be less irritated if all the plants were healthy. i don't think it's a mineral crust unless minerals are supposed to taste salty and bitter. i couldn't get rid of the taste. it was so awful.

again, totally fixable but i'm not thrilled about the week or so of growth i'm going to lose, nor the irony of switching to all organic to avoid salt issues and ending up with WORSE salt issues.

 

[Nullis]

Also, are you using any pH Up at all? That's one thing I can think of that would cause that.

 

[elduece]

Based on what you said I'm confident that it isn't salt. It looks like dried up microherd to me. It happens alot with all FF mixes over here especially the Light Warrior. You water it the first time then BAM! Thick yellow/white fuzziness all over the place -glueing most bottom catch trays to their pots when you pick 'em up. After a few days the excess dies off you'll get that in the first .jpg.

Besides, why don't you use Lighht Warror instead for those seedlings? HF is way too rich for seedlings.

 

[Total Head]

Based on what you said I'm confident that it isn't salt. It looks like dried up microherd to me. It happens alot with all FF mixes over here especially the Light Warrior. You water it the first time then BAM! Thick yellow/white fuzziness all over the place -glueing most bottom catch trays to their pots when you pick 'em up. After a few days the excess dies off you'll get that in the first .jpg.

Besides, why don't you use Lighht Warror instead for those seedlings? HF is way too rich for seedlings.

my concern is that the two plants that have this residue are doing poorly compared to the other two which have far less of this residue. and it tastes salty and bitter. i'm always tasting my soil and my plants. not that i necessarily know what they "should" taste like, but i am able to observe differences in tastes of plants and/or soil and it has to mean something. i've never tasted saltiness on my soil and this stuff lingered for about 15 minutes. it was the first time i sincerely regretted doing a taste test.

about the lw vs hf, i've never bothered with the lw because it comes in bags that are far too large for the amount i use since i plant into pretty small containers. i honestly never had a problem with the happy frog in the 2+ years i've been using it for seeds. the ffof is some pretty hot stuff but i've always found the richness of the different soils to be exaggerated on the forums. there's people that claim they can veg 6 weeks in straight ffof with plain water. i personally have had no such results.

all of these were planted on the same day from the same bag of soil. i know seeds aren't genetically identical but that one plant in particular is completely in the crapper and looks like a noob doused it with burn juice, the mutant is struggling, but two of them are doing fantastic, all things considered. one is even starting to look like she might want some nomnoms soon. the containers were thoroughly cleaned prior to planting, also.

 

[EROsain]

i think you need to jump start the organic system in that soil. Btw the white stuff could also be chlorine from the tap water . but i think you should flush a few times with distilled water if your tap water tastes a lil metallic or has a chlorine after taste . . then find some black strap molasses and also add a microbe blend to your water. and for those that are really bad, if your gonna transplant to any thing bigger ad say do it now (watch out for the root ball if its not fully formed yet) GL

 

[doc111]

my concern is that the two plants that have this residue are doing poorly compared to the other two which have far less of this residue. and it tastes salty and bitter. i'm always tasting my soil and my plants. not that i necessarily know what they "should" taste like, but i am able to observe differences in tastes of plants and/or soil and it has to mean something. i've never tasted saltiness on my soil and this stuff lingered for about 15 minutes. it was the first time i sincerely regretted doing a taste test.

about the lw vs hf, i've never bothered with the lw because it comes in bags that are far too large for the amount i use since i plant into pretty small containers. i honestly never had a problem with the happy frog in the 2+ years i've been using it for seeds. the ffof is some pretty hot stuff but i've always found the richness of the different soils to be exaggerated on the forums. there's people that claim they can veg 6 weeks in straight ffof with plain water. i personally have had no such results.

all of these were planted on the same day from the same bag of soil. i know seeds aren't genetically identical but that one plant in particular is completely in the crapper and looks like a noob doused it with burn juice, the mutant is struggling, but two of them are doing fantastic, all things considered. one is even starting to look like she might want some nomnoms soon. the containers were thoroughly cleaned prior to planting, also.

The one on the left appears to be struggling a bit, but I'm pretty sure it will recover. The other 2 look pretty healthy to me. Organic soils can have "hotspots" and different plants can often have issues that other plants aren't experiencing in the same conditions. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just keep an eye on them. I see this same crust every single grow and it has never caused any major issues for me. As for the taste? Not sure what to tell you there. If you've tested your tapwater's TDS and it's pretty low, then I doubt that your tapwater is the cause.

 

[scroglodyte]

the white crystalline shit aside..........those plants look over-watered. i'd re-pot up to larger pots with neutral grower's mix, and let them dry out more between waterings. i mix my own soil so i always know what's in it.

 

[doc111]

the white crystalline shit aside..........those plants look over-watered. i'd re-pot up to larger pots with neutral grower's mix, and let them dry out more between waterings. i mix my own soil so i always know what's in it.

Overwatered??????? Really? They don't look overwatered to me. In fact the 2nd and 3rd pic look like nice healthy little plants. The tops of the soil appear dry...........what are you basing this observation on?


Not all of us are able to mix up our own soil. I used to do it, it was time consuming and hunting down all the amendments could be a real pain in the ass at times. Some of us do other things besides grow. For example, I have a family and run 2 small businesses. My time is precious. I like using FF soils simply because they contain a nice mix of organic goodies and do a comparable job to my own mixes. They aren't that much more expensive either, especially when you consider your time, the cost of the various amendments and paying for gas driving all over town to locate these amendments. Mixing your own soil is great, but everyone's situation is different and some of us just don't have that luxury.

 

[scroglodyte]

pic one has curled, twisted growth, and puffy. pic 2 looks good. pic 3 has twisted up new growth also. perhaps they are not draining well. dry soil on top doesn't always mean dry feet. you're not feeding....right? not nute burn. what else can look like that? over-watering/poor drainage can

 

[scroglodyte]

if you say they ain't.....i believe ya. that leaves a bum batch of soil as the culprit. could be.

 

[GreatwhiteNorth]

Not all of us are able to mix up our own soil. I used to do it, it was time consuming and hunting down all the amendments could be a real pain in the ass at times.

Doc - have you considered using something like this ? It looks to contain most of the elements I put into my (Sub's actually) supersoil.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPER-SOIL-BAT-GUANO-BONE-MEAL-BLOOD-MEAL-AZOMITE-MYCORRHIZAL-HUMIC-ACID-/320849076661?pt=Fertilizer_Soil_Amendments&hash=item4ab41861b5

 

[doc111]

pic one has curled, twisted growth, and puffy. pic 2 looks good. pic 3 has twisted up new growth also. perhaps they are not draining well. dry soil on top doesn't always mean dry feet. you're not feeding....right? not nute burn. what else can look like that? over-watering/poor drainage can

I agree that pic 1 looks a bit fucked up. He says he hasn't fed them yet, but organic mixes (even home made ones) can have "hotspots". IME, Happy Frog (and all FF soils for that matter) have plenty of perlite. They could be a bit wet lower in the pots, but this isn't usually a problem since as the plants will grow they will wick away any excess moisture below. Pic 3 does have that "recently watererd" look to it, but still looks healthy nonetheless. Overwatering usually isn't a major problem unless some noob is dumping a gallon a day into a one gallon pot or something. lol!

 

[doc111]

Doc - have you considered using something like this ? It looks to contain most of the elements I put into my (Sub's actually) supersoil.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPER-SOIL-BAT-GUANO-BONE-MEAL-BLOOD-MEAL-AZOMITE-MYCORRHIZAL-HUMIC-ACID-/320849076661?pt=Fertilizer_Soil_Amendments&hash=item4ab41861b5

No I haven't yet.............but I am wanting to give supersoil a try. Just don't want to fuck with mixing it up, letting it cook, etc. This may be the way to go! Thanks for the link my friend!

 

[Total Head]

the white crystalline shit aside..........those plants look over-watered. i'd re-pot up to larger pots with neutral grower's mix, and let them dry out more between waterings. i mix my own soil so i always know what's in it.

a couple had been recently watered, i forget which. i also mix my own soil, i just don't plant seeds in it. i make it pretty hot, so having a nice root ball and healthy foliage is imperative before i repot, and this is what's pissing me off. it figures that the plant in the smallest container that needs up-potting first is the one that's the most fucked up. by this point i would usually expect to be putting them in their 3 gallon pots but no effin way with leaves like that and the soil i mix.if anything i'm guilty of underwatering as habit, which isn't much better than overwatering, but does invite its own problems.

my hunch here is that the plants in bigger pots get a lot more liquid run through them when i water simply due to the fact that bigger pots get more water and more runoff, and this is why those plants are less jacked up. they've been "rinsed" better. the mutant gets less water because it is stunted and drinks less and the tiny pot is just tiny. i don't think it's a coincidence that these two are doing the worst.

i also think i'm so quick to blame the soil because i have observed more than once at the grow store "beat up" looking bags of soil. not MY soil, but some of their stuff looks like they don't take the best care when they store it out back or where ever, so it's not much of a stretch in my mind to assume they may have spilled something on it or otherwise contaminated it. i found a new grow store that's closer to me with better prices, and 'tis the season for shopping at local nurseries, so i hope this incident is soon behind me.

 

[Kb's seeds]

keep in mind that when using tap water the TDS ratings can change everyday, i have had to use tap water before i got my R/O filter, u gota let it sit for 24hrs to let chlorine dissipate, but even then that wont help with the salt build up caused by the high amounts of calcium, magnesium and other elements in the water, i have seen such high spikes in tap water from day to day one day it was 106ppm which wasnt to bad but the next morning it was 220ppm which is a huge jump, if u only measure it once it wont really give u any insight on how hard the water is ul need to measure it each day and when u get a low reading draw ur water on those days

 

[Noob187]

When in doubt, transplant into a different soil