Capt. Stickyfingers
Well-Known Member
That would apply to some super long flowering sativas.
But speaking of trichs, I've had plants that went from clear to amber, no cloudy in-between.
Trichs Never Turn Amber
- Thread starter Huel Perkins
- Start date
But speaking of trichs, I've had plants that went from clear to amber, no cloudy in-between.
zubey91
Well-Known Member
i'm growing Nebula and its prety much doing the same thing... the trichs are all white and milky but hardly any are amber.. all fan leaves are turning bright yellow.. even the leafs coming out of he buds (sugar leaves) are turiing yellow....
its week 9 for me and all the buds have major fox tails and are still shooting out white pistals. i was gonna chop but it seems like each time new white hair growith comes in.. the pod its coming out of swells lke crazy once they recede and the bud gets bigger
Huel Perkins
Well-Known Member
Sounds like harvest time to me.
zubey91
Well-Known Member
iNFID3L
Well-Known Member
OldGrowAddict
Member
@k0ijn:
"THC can degrade into CBN, THC-A can't."
True, but you knew what I meant:
Some THC-A will become THC, which is a well known fact. Therefore some of the THC-A ends up as CBN, during drying & curing.
I never accused YOU for lack of sources in your posts on rollitup forums.
I don't know you, so I didn't know if you simply repeated forum-noise or not, which the majority do.
So I simply asked for the source of a SINGLE statement you wrote, I never even claimed it was wrong:
"Amber trichomes contain CBN which is the product of degraded THC and it represents a 90% loss of potency."
I never got the source from you.
I also wrote:
"
I know CBN is "only" mildly phycoactive on it's OWN, but nobody knows the complex interactions.
Notice how everybody hypes CBD (which is not psychoactive)? Interactions are key.
It seems, non-phsycoactive CBD prolongs the high! So who knows what phsycoactive CBN does. There are at least 85 known cannabinoids interacting.
"
I don't know why you reacted so strongly to this statement. I didn't try to discredit CBD. I wish my english was better. Maybe "high" and "hype" was the wrong words.
I never said it made the potency stronger, but I can see how my wording made you think that. I should have used "prolonged effect".
In fact, from memory: A study of MJ potency related to THC:CBD ratio. A high THC content only means a good high if accompanied by a low CBD content. As the CBD content increases relative to that of THC the high will be weakened and delayed.
So YES, I do know that CBD can act as an antagonist to THC (which means it "act against" the effect of THC).
But the world is not black and white, and interactions are hard for even scientists to understand. Really.
Personally, I belive CBD is acting as partial agonists too. The reason is sources like this:
"
From a general therapeutic perspective THC and CBD have important effects on one another when ingested together. When present along with THC, CBD prolongs the effects of THC-therapy by inhibiting the breakdown process of THC in our liver. If the THC breakdown is inhibited, its effects persist longer. When appreciable amounts of CBD (>4% CBD by weight for flowers) are ingested along with THC, the CBD may reduce the psychoactivity many patients would normally experience from the THC present. Exciting studies that are currently being conducted at California Pacific Medical Center in San Francisco are demonstrating that specific amounts of THC and CBD injected into breast and brain tumors can eliminate those tumors completely, in 30 days.
"
And I wrote that the pathways (the forming of THC etc) are not know for certain yet, there are currently at least two widely accepted views.
Wikipedia:
"
Cannabinoid production starts when an enzyme causes geranyl pyrophosphate and olivetolic acid to combine and form CBG.
Next, CBG is independently converted to either CBD or CBC by two separate synthase enzymes. CBD is then enzymatically cyclized to THC. For the propyl homologues (THCV, CBDV and CBNV), there is a similar pathway that is based on CBGV. (recent studies show that THC is not cyclized from CBD but rather directly from CBG. no experiment thus far has turned up an enzyme that converts CBD into THC although it is still hypothesized.)
"
Like I said, there are conflicting info out there even among scholars - science still has a lot to figure out.
"THC can degrade into CBN, THC-A can't."
True, but you knew what I meant:
Some THC-A will become THC, which is a well known fact. Therefore some of the THC-A ends up as CBN, during drying & curing.
I never accused YOU for lack of sources in your posts on rollitup forums.
I don't know you, so I didn't know if you simply repeated forum-noise or not, which the majority do.
So I simply asked for the source of a SINGLE statement you wrote, I never even claimed it was wrong:
"Amber trichomes contain CBN which is the product of degraded THC and it represents a 90% loss of potency."
I never got the source from you.
I also wrote:
"
I know CBN is "only" mildly phycoactive on it's OWN, but nobody knows the complex interactions.
Notice how everybody hypes CBD (which is not psychoactive)? Interactions are key.
It seems, non-phsycoactive CBD prolongs the high! So who knows what phsycoactive CBN does. There are at least 85 known cannabinoids interacting.
"
I don't know why you reacted so strongly to this statement. I didn't try to discredit CBD. I wish my english was better. Maybe "high" and "hype" was the wrong words.
I never said it made the potency stronger, but I can see how my wording made you think that. I should have used "prolonged effect".
In fact, from memory: A study of MJ potency related to THC:CBD ratio. A high THC content only means a good high if accompanied by a low CBD content. As the CBD content increases relative to that of THC the high will be weakened and delayed.
So YES, I do know that CBD can act as an antagonist to THC (which means it "act against" the effect of THC).
But the world is not black and white, and interactions are hard for even scientists to understand. Really.
Personally, I belive CBD is acting as partial agonists too. The reason is sources like this:
"
From a general therapeutic perspective THC and CBD have important effects on one another when ingested together. When present along with THC, CBD prolongs the effects of THC-therapy by inhibiting the breakdown process of THC in our liver. If the THC breakdown is inhibited, its effects persist longer. When appreciable amounts of CBD (>4% CBD by weight for flowers) are ingested along with THC, the CBD may reduce the psychoactivity many patients would normally experience from the THC present. Exciting studies that are currently being conducted at California Pacific Medical Center in San Francisco are demonstrating that specific amounts of THC and CBD injected into breast and brain tumors can eliminate those tumors completely, in 30 days.
"
And I wrote that the pathways (the forming of THC etc) are not know for certain yet, there are currently at least two widely accepted views.
Wikipedia:
"
Cannabinoid production starts when an enzyme causes geranyl pyrophosphate and olivetolic acid to combine and form CBG.
Next, CBG is independently converted to either CBD or CBC by two separate synthase enzymes. CBD is then enzymatically cyclized to THC. For the propyl homologues (THCV, CBDV and CBNV), there is a similar pathway that is based on CBGV. (recent studies show that THC is not cyclized from CBD but rather directly from CBG. no experiment thus far has turned up an enzyme that converts CBD into THC although it is still hypothesized.)
"
Like I said, there are conflicting info out there even among scholars - science still has a lot to figure out.
k0ijn
Scientia Cannabis
The fact that THC-A becomes THC and that the THC can degrade into CBN does not relate to THC-A becoming CBN directly.
You can't just say that because CBN is the degradation product of THC then the precursor to THC, THC-A, ends up as CBN during drying & curing.
CBN is not just formed during drying & curing.
CBN can be formed due to bad conditions, light exposure and it's also formed continuously during the plants life by regular 'ageing' of trichomes, if you will.
It seems to me that you think fresh plants contain only THC-A and CBN is only formed during drying & curing.
I don't know why you have come to that conclusion but it's not correct.
This is a quote from you:
"Rember THC-A (which fresh plants are fulll of)?
The THC-A which will eventually get formed into regular THC automatically over time (or using ligher in a bong (heat)).
BUT, THC-A will ALSO form CBN! (and everybody seem to hate CBN)."
Those statements are so misleading and show a lot of misunderstanding of which substances are formed when and how the degrade / reform into other substances.
I know you wanted that and my response will be exactly the same as it was before;
If you look through my posts on this subject you will see me referencing sources, including books, biotech companies, theses & research.
Instead of saying I talk bullshit straight away why didn't you just do a simple search and look at the sources presented?
Why do I have to source every repeat statement I make when I have already sourced the original argument in previous posts, readily available?
These are some of the sources I have mentioned numerous times in many different posts, most recently the trichome post:
Cannabinoid synthesis, pharmacology etc:
Books:
Cannabid and Cannabinoids:
Pharmacology, Toxicology, and Therapeutic Potential
Marijuana Chemistry:
Genetics, Processing And Potency
Science has a lot to figure out but it also knows a lot about cannabinoids already, which is generally viewed as fact.
The science behind the synthesis of cannabinoids has been known for a while and is agreed upon.
There might be some uncertaincies with regards to the relationship of the -A & -V cannabinoids but the syntheses of the seperate THC - CBD - CBC etc are quite well known.
I'm not sure why you quote a section of wikipedia (and a section which has no references or sources) as a credible source but that is your call.
In fact I can point out a very obvious mistake in the wikipedia quote you made;
"...geranyl pyrophosphate and olivetolic acid combine and form CBG."
That's not the case. Geranyl pyrophosphate & Olivetolic acid combine to form CBG-A (the precursor acid which forms CBG).
And the crux of the point in:
"(recent studies show that THC is not cyclized from CBD but rather directly from CBG. no experiment thus far has turned up an enzyme that converts CBD into THC although it is still hypothesized.)"
is rather lost due to the fact that the wrong cannabinoids are mentioned.
The wikipedia section you quoted has skipped a lot of steps (or more likely; the person who wrote it on wikipedia does not really have a firm grasp of the processes).
THC is in _some_ way formed by CBG but not directly, not at all.
THC-A is derived from CBG-A, and THC is in turn derived from THC-A. Thus they are connected in a pathway if you will, but saying:
"THC... (is formed)...directly from CBG."
Is just false and misleading.
I hope you can see the point I'm trying to make.
A lot of steps have been skipped, and it could well be the confusion.
If you look in my post on trichomes: https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/516184-trichomes-harvesting.html
You will find an image which explains rather well how different cannabinoids form and which paths they take.
That image is taken from a Biotech company who focus all their research on cannabis and cannabinoids in particular.
And in any case, I'll trust scientific research done by professionals over a wikipedia notation without references or sources.
And anyway you are now shifting the arguments over to something different.
The reason why I haven't responded to the stuff you wrote about CBD & THC interaction is that;
The relationship between CBD & THC was not questioned by me or anyone else.
The information you posted regarding how THC & CBD interacts has already been posted numerous times on these forums and most serious growers know of it.
There is nothing to have a discussion about there, you're simply stating facts which no one has argued against.
I agree with you on the interaction of cannabinoids but that was not a point of the original discussion and it's irrelevant.
k0ijn
Scientia Cannabis
Oh, and it amuses me that Rumple will 'like' anything as long as it disagrees with what I've posted, no matter how devoid of facts, sources & references it is.
I find that people who smoke really good weed don't have to resort to this passive aggressive childish behaviour to please their emotions.
I find that people who smoke really good weed don't have to resort to this passive aggressive childish behaviour to please their emotions.
TheMan13
Well-Known Member
I've had a sativa dominate Cheese cut for years now that acts just like your AK-47 Huel. It has never ambered no matter how long I've let it go and it never really stops growing. That said, I have had great luck harvesting the tops and giving the bottoms a week or so longer to finish. The flush can be tough doing this, but when done right it's worth it.
Huel Perkins
Well-Known Member
I don't flush and my garden takes over a week for me to harvest. I'm not so worried about my harvest time, I just started this thread to spark conversation and hear others thoughts.
HotShot7414
Well-Known Member
This is true sativas tend to just get cloudy and not amber and also takes long but it has a longer window of harvest.This is why when i grow a sativa dominant plant i watch for pistils mostly.
Ok here is my take on the amber/cloudy/clear issue. Not saying its right, but just what I get out of the back and forth conversations with "facts" to back up their side of the debate....
Cloudy trichs have the best thc. So I want to get the most cloudy heads I can possibly get from that plant for its peak.
Going on the basis of my past experiences...
Around 3 weeks into flowering I start seeing light crystal production.
Around 6 weeks I am seeing the heaviest crystal production.
I want the crystals formed at 6 weeks to turn cloudy, that will be my highest concentration of cloudy crystals.
That means that the crystals at 3 weeks in, are going to be past ripe, they will be turning amber. But, because that was my lowest trich production, it will be a low percentage of the total crystals.
I have crystals still forming at cut, so there will be a percentage of clear crystals as well. I want the balance of as few clear, as few amber, and as many cloudies as I can get.
Cloudy trichs have the best thc. So I want to get the most cloudy heads I can possibly get from that plant for its peak.
Going on the basis of my past experiences...
Around 3 weeks into flowering I start seeing light crystal production.
Around 6 weeks I am seeing the heaviest crystal production.
I want the crystals formed at 6 weeks to turn cloudy, that will be my highest concentration of cloudy crystals.
That means that the crystals at 3 weeks in, are going to be past ripe, they will be turning amber. But, because that was my lowest trich production, it will be a low percentage of the total crystals.
I have crystals still forming at cut, so there will be a percentage of clear crystals as well. I want the balance of as few clear, as few amber, and as many cloudies as I can get.
mipainpatient
Active Member
bros. remember the terpenoids. I've harvested @ 80% clear and had pleasant results: super dreamy yet inspiring and motivational---did a myrcene friendly cure (low temps, 6-9 day dry then jar burp etc) if this concept is foreign you need to find the peer-reviewed MJ curing study (academic paper search for terms "brown bag cannabis terpenoids air" should pull it up-----chart of major terpenoid degradation at 4 intervals was a goldmine) same strain, heavy indica, was a sleeper at 10% amber
Also this whole thread about trichs turning and no mention of lighting type. As if we all grew under the same spectrum and said spectrum had 0 effect on the outcomes. Find the New Zealand police-funded peer-reviewed study of SCROG technique (apparently they kept busting grows with this new method that also look more pro) they observed as large as a 22% difference in THC content between nugs on the same plant/same grow (i believe they did three hydro runs) just saying light source/distance/and apical dominance should be affecting everything too. HP do you top that AK or is it central leader style (untopped, apical meristem is dominant)?
mpp out
Also this whole thread about trichs turning and no mention of lighting type. As if we all grew under the same spectrum and said spectrum had 0 effect on the outcomes. Find the New Zealand police-funded peer-reviewed study of SCROG technique (apparently they kept busting grows with this new method that also look more pro) they observed as large as a 22% difference in THC content between nugs on the same plant/same grow (i believe they did three hydro runs) just saying light source/distance/and apical dominance should be affecting everything too. HP do you top that AK or is it central leader style (untopped, apical meristem is dominant)?
mpp out
Dice Clay
Active Member
this is why I love your posts... based in scientific fact aptly utilized in a coherent and logical thought. Too many people here think that cutting and pasting a paragraph from wiki is the end all ....
mr. green thumb 01
New Member
wow, this thread has turned into a clear cloudy amber argument lol. If I had a nickle for all of these lmao!! None really even relevant to the OP.
So anyway Im not sure what your grow style in hydro dirt nft or whatever but when I get strains that like to do this...mostly sativas or sativa dominant hybrids I like to bump up mu (k) late in flower to try to harden the flowers. High (p) late in flower goes also seems to cause re-growth. When a strain does not like to finish or keeps growing new buds on top of buds, fox tailing or whatever you can WATER LESS OFTEN or if its dwc significantly drop the level of your water maybe say half or even 3/4 byebye, theyll live just fine like this especially later in flower. But the thing is when you do this your giving the plant the optical illusion the end is coming or WINTER. Normally plants are use to less and less water as the fall approaches. Also when trying this do this once and see how you like it. Once close to harvest or 75%red pistals, or when trichs are nice and cloudy (or wherever you like to harvest) slowly decrease the watering and then bam just stop watering all together and watch her go into survival mode hairs rapidly recede and fox tailing or re-budding stops. You'll be surprised just how long she will survive with no water. Also there is additives to help push plants through what I like to refer to as the still time in flower right before ripen. Oh and one more thing I just thought of make sure your not banging her out with high ppm's late in flower because this seems to do it also. Rainbow your ppm's and your waterings as you feel the plants life cycle speeds and slows. If possible they love a rainbow of temp too. Nice and cold late in flower or a good bit colder then optimum grow temp. All these are signals to help the plant realize the end is coming and seems to speed up harvest and even quality! Good luck!
My source is me
Huel Perkins
Well-Known Member
No big central main cola, No topping or training needed, this plant grows wider than it does tall with a nice even canopy of 10+ colas after a 3 week veg.
Thanks!
I've always grown this strain in hydro (dwc). As long as i've been going this strain i've tested 4 different nutrient lines and all sorts of additives, i've done grows with heavy feedings, light feedings, low rez levels, high rez levels, you name it, beneficials, H2O2, ect. Now i just focus on keeping the plants as healthy as i can using cheap nutes and very few additives.wow, this thread has turned into a clear cloudy amber argument lol. If I had a nickle for all of these lmao!! None really even relevant to the OP.
So anyway Im not sure what your grow style in hydro dirt nft or whatever but when I get strains that like to do this...mostly sativas or sativa dominant hybrids I like to bump up mu (k) late in flower to try to harden the flowers. High (p) late in flower goes also seems to cause re-growth. When a strain does not like to finish or keeps growing new buds on top of buds, fox tailing or whatever you can WATER LESS OFTEN or if its dwc significantly drop the level of your water maybe say half or even 3/4 byebye, theyll live just fine like this especially later in flower. But the thing is when you do this your giving the plant the optical illusion the end is coming or WINTER. Normally plants are use to less and less water as the fall approaches. Also when trying this do this once and see how you like it. Once close to harvest or 75%red pistals, or when trichs are nice and cloudy (or wherever you like to harvest) slowly decrease the watering and then bam just stop watering all together and watch her go into survival mode hairs rapidly recede and fox tailing or re-budding stops. You'll be surprised just how long she will survive with no water. Also there is additives to help push plants through what I like to refer to as the still time in flower right before ripen. Oh and one more thing I just thought of make sure your not banging her out with high ppm's late in flower because this seems to do it also. Rainbow your ppm's and your waterings as you feel the plants life cycle speeds and slows. If possible they love a rainbow of temp too. Nice and cold late in flower or a good bit colder then optimum grow temp. All these are signals to help the plant realize the end is coming and seems to speed up harvest and even quality! Good luck!
My source is me
Bought a vape here recently and decided to futz around with it using some lower micro-buds growing on the bottom of my plants. They were in week 6 of flower, white "pistols" to the max, with a few here and there starting to darken, and a bunch of clear trichs.
"What the hell?"
Thought I....
I didn't expect much since they were incomplete, and figured I'd at least get some lovely flavor at the minimum. However, like the Death Star in Return of the Jedi, those little buds may not have been totally finished, but they were fully operational. Granted, my tolerance was literally zero since I hadn't used cannabis since Moses was a private, but the tiny amount I vaped, pretty much kicked my ass, and the plants aren't even done.
I don't know the chemistry, however, the tiny buds I vaped certainly were effective despite the fact they were covered with clear trichs. I've got 2 AK's that just hit week 7, and I'll be looking for the milky trichs as a harvest sign. We'll see how that goes.
Interesting thread.
Thanks for the references, and happy growing.
"What the hell?"
Thought I....
I didn't expect much since they were incomplete, and figured I'd at least get some lovely flavor at the minimum. However, like the Death Star in Return of the Jedi, those little buds may not have been totally finished, but they were fully operational. Granted, my tolerance was literally zero since I hadn't used cannabis since Moses was a private, but the tiny amount I vaped, pretty much kicked my ass, and the plants aren't even done.
I don't know the chemistry, however, the tiny buds I vaped certainly were effective despite the fact they were covered with clear trichs. I've got 2 AK's that just hit week 7, and I'll be looking for the milky trichs as a harvest sign. We'll see how that goes.
Interesting thread.
Thanks for the references, and happy growing.
k0ijn
Scientia Cannabis
A lot of variables need to be taken into account.
Strain is probably the most important since a 6 week plant can be near completion if it's a fast growing Indica and it can be only half way done if it's a Sativa with a long flowering period.
Therefore it's hard to say exactly how well matured your plant was, and how many cloudy / amber trichs were present with at least some psychoactive effect.
I've sampled Indicas & hybrids in the 6th-7th week of flowering which have knocked me on my arse, even uncured.
And some of them clearly weren't done and did indeed improve tenfold on the already noticeable high after a full flowering period and a proper dry & cure.
But the point I'm trying to make is that there is a huge difference between smoking underdeveloped weed (trichomes) and fully developed weed.
And depending on many variables it can take anywhere from 5 weeks to 10 weeks before a reasonable potency is reached (not peak potency, but the imaginary line where clear trichomes are outnumbered (or close to being outnumbered) by cloudy & amber trichomes).
I get that the example you used has meaning to you but without more information it's hard for me to use it to make any conclusion.
Since you could well have had a strain with a shorter than average flowering period which might have had quite a few cloudy trichomes and some amber, which explains the effect you got from it.
But if you had a strain with a 8-10 week flowering period you only got a taste of the high, it would not have been "fully operational" yet but only give you a hint of what the high can be from that particular strain. It might feel to you like it was on full blast but that could be down to you not having smoked in a while.
