The Science of Interconnectedness.

[mindphuk]

I understand what you have to say on the supposedly necessary criticism and skepticism of spiritual topics.

I'm skeptical about all topics. You merely take my skepticism on things you believe more personally, which then colors your view of me.

I just dont see the point behind it other than to convince the other that their way of thinking is illogical according to a certain paradigm.

If thinking is illogical, it is illogical, regardless of paradigm. Logic is like mathematics. there are right and wrong answers. You may want to believe 2+2=22, but everyone that understands math knows the answer is 4.

Spirituality and science are thought to be polar opposites of each other, do you agree?

I disagree 100%. Science is a methodology to explore the material world. I already explained why it is necessarily materialistic in its methodology, but that does not mean that I am a philosophical materialist. This is the one of the reasons you aggravate me, you often are careless in your reading of other people's posts and gloss over some very important points. Many of the things you accuse me and Heis of have been answered, numerous times, in the negative, yet you continue to point the finger and make the same strawman claims over and over. If you are this careless in your approach to what other people say, I am not convinced your recollection of supposed events you claim to have experienced are accurate. This is merely one reason that I don't accept personal experiences as valid evidence.

One cannot test the other,

AFAIK, spirituality does no testing whatsoever.

and looks down upon those that try, so it says its illogical to believe in it.

No one is saying it's illogical to believe something exists outside nature. We can only ask the question, what good REASONS do you have to believe that x exists? If your reasons are illogical, then the argument is merely that...your reasoning is flawed. However, we have said from day one, we cannot discount YOUR personal experiences whole cloth, only that they are not persuasive to someone else, and then we give reasons why.

The other one says it doesnt need the other because it only applies to physical reality and is useless in true reality.

I live under the assumption there is only one true reality. It is MY EXPERIENCE that there is only the material world and so far no one has demonstrated anything convincing beyond that. One thing you seem to disregard is the experience of myself and others like me that in spite of looking very hard, have never found anyone able to demonstrate anything outside of nature. Out of all of the claims, all over the world, none of them stand up to rigorous scrutiny. You may be unique in finding someone that can read minds but I doubt it for good reasons. Yet even mind reading is a phenomena that if occurs, is likely natural, bound by the laws of nature. Mind reading by itself, does not demonstrate anything spiritual IMO.

What agreement is there to be had when both sides think the other is unreasonable and being deluded? It ends up being dictated by the aggressors by saying "science says this, so you're thinking illogically,

Until you can grasp the nuance of the actual argument, you will continue to be corrected. This is more of the same strawman as before. No one says that you're thinking is illogical because science disagrees, illogical thinking is self-evident. Science is merely a tool that uses logic and reason to arrive at conclusions. Science doesn't 'say' one thing or another. However, avoiding the scientific method is likely to open yourself up to errors and fallacious thinking. No one is saying that a fallacious belief cannot be right, just that your arrived at it by a circumspect method. If your method is prone to errors, then your conclusions are likely to contain errors as well. Science, as a method, looks first to invalidate what we are trying to demonstrate. If our hypothesis is invalidated early on, we get to propose another hypothesis. When an individual ignores things that invalidate and only looks to confirmation, it only reinforces the idea that their idea/hypothesis is valid, even though they are missing all of the reasons it isn't valid. This pseudoscientific process is common and leads to delusions of correctness. It is very difficult to claim someone strictly abiding by the scientific method is deluding himself as the method itself safeguards against that.

my friends agree with me". Your "credulousness" comment is proving my point,

Do you doubt you're own credulousness? It's not an accusation as much as an observation. However, you seem to take these things personally rather than look at it objectively to see if there is any merit.

there can be no agreement, just the self proclaimed superior worldview ridiculing the other. I really see no point to it other then to shut the supposedly illogical thinkers up.

There are plenty of areas that we should be able to agree upon if you were actually honest about it. I do agree that I see science as a superior way of gaining knowledge, but I don't see it as a worldview. I don't want to shut up illogical thinkers but teach them to think logically instead. Sloppy thinking gains no one anything, let alone knowledge.

I dont think I need the self examination. I know who I am, I've experienced a lot in my 21 years and I have learned a great deal from these experiences,

Someone that doesn't think self-assessment is valuable is certainly arrogant and probably wrong about many things. One of the strengths of science is that it requires constant re-assessment.

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

I'm skeptical about all topics. You merely take my skepticism on things you believe more personally, which then colors your view of me. If thinking is illogical, it is illogical, regardless of paradigm. Logic is like mathematics. there are right and wrong answers. You may want to believe 2+2=22, but everyone that understands math knows the answer is 4.
I disagree 100%. Science is a methodology to explore the material world. I already explained why it is necessarily materialistic in its methodology, but that does not mean that I am a philosophical materialist. This is the one of the reasons you aggravate me, you often are careless in your reading of other people's posts and gloss over some very important points. Many of the things you accuse me and Heis of have been answered, numerous times, in the negative, yet you continue to point the finger and make the same strawman claims over and over. If you are this careless in your approach to what other people say, I am not convinced your recollection of supposed events you claim to have experienced are accurate. This is merely one reason that I don't accept personal experiences as valid evidence.
AFAIK, spirituality does no testing whatsoever.
No one is saying it's illogical to believe something exists outside nature. We can only ask the question, what good REASONS do you have to believe that x exists? If your reasons are illogical, then the argument is merely that...your reasoning is flawed. However, we have said from day one, we cannot discount YOUR personal experiences whole cloth, only that they are not persuasive to someone else, and then we give reasons why.
I live under the assumption there is only one true reality. It is MY EXPERIENCE that there is only the material world and so far no one has demonstrated anything convincing beyond that. One thing you seem to disregard is the experience of myself and others like me that in spite of looking very hard, have never found anyone able to demonstrate anything outside of nature. Out of all of the claims, all over the world, none of them stand up to rigorous scrutiny. You may be unique in finding someone that can read minds but I doubt it for good reasons. Yet even mind reading is a phenomena that if occurs, is likely natural, bound by the laws of nature. Mind reading by itself, does not demonstrate anything spiritual IMO.
Until you can grasp the nuance of the actual argument, you will continue to be corrected. This is more of the same strawman as before. No one says that you're thinking is illogical because science disagrees, illogical thinking is self-evident. Science is merely a tool that uses logic and reason to arrive at conclusions. Science doesn't 'say' one thing or another. However, avoiding the scientific method is likely to open yourself up to errors and fallacious thinking. No one is saying that a fallacious belief cannot be right, just that your arrived at it by a circumspect method. If your method is prone to errors, then your conclusions are likely to contain errors as well. Science, as a method, looks first to invalidate what we are trying to demonstrate. If our hypothesis is invalidated early on, we get to propose another hypothesis. When an individual ignores things that invalidate and only looks to confirmation, it only reinforces the idea that their idea/hypothesis is valid, even though they are missing all of the reasons it isn't valid. This pseudoscientific process is common and leads to delusions of correctness. It is very difficult to claim someone strictly abiding by the scientific method is deluding himself as the method itself safeguards against that.
Do you doubt you're own credulousness? It's not an accusation as much as an observation. However, you seem to take these things personally rather than look at it objectively to see if there is any merit. There are plenty of areas that we should be able to agree upon if you were actually honest about it. I do agree that I see science as a superior way of gaining knowledge, but I don't see it as a worldview. I don't want to shut up illogical thinkers but teach them to think logically instead. Sloppy thinking gains no one anything, let alone knowledge.
Someone that doesn't think self-assessment is valuable is certainly arrogant and probably wrong about many things. One of the strengths of science is that it requires constant re-assessment.

And I'm skeptical on sciences ability to discover reality. I think DMT is a better tool than science to discover reality, imo. Which supposedly is illogical, I know.

I understand the skeptical views on personal experiences and am not trying to convince anyone. Though I did get aggressively challenged by those that thought telepathy was ridiculous as if they wanted me to prove it true even though they knew reported experiences are not evidence at all.

You know nothing of spirituality. Though I think its about testing yourself and see how much you can develop and how you can positively influence those around you.

If it exists, it is not outside nature, it is a part of nature. The reasons to believe these types of things are usually experiences, and I know that says nothing objectively.

Yes, telepathy would be natural, and is natural, because it happens in nature. Though saying it is likely not spiritual is a false assumption because you know nothing of telepathy. Saying "everything else has been proven to be non spiritual" is a poor excuse imo. Also, the definition of telepathy is a transmission of information from one person to another without using any of the sensory channels or physical interaction.

So if a spiritual belief were to be completely true, no credit should be lent to the method that found out this spiritual truth? Sorry if I misunderstood.

Yes, I doubt what you have labelled credulous, as I still believe in everything that I did before I joined this site.

How many illogical thinkers have you got to think logically? Your goal to logically enlighten people seems illogical since very few take your words into consideration.

You are twisting things around and putting words in my mouth. I never said I dont need self-assessment, I just dont need it in the way you think I need it. I am very aware of my actions and how I interact and influence people in the real world. It is a part of spirituality to evaluate yourself to see where you need improvements. Gotta know myself to know god.

 

[mindphuk]

Right, you got it all down. I know nothing, you are clued into the true reality. You don't misunderstand me, I twist things around. You are infallible, I'm clueless about spirituality.

I guess I was wrong, you haven't changed one iota. You fail to address any actual content of my post and cherry-picked the things you disagree with, merely to point out how wrong I am.

 

[Samwell Seed Well]

Right, you got it all down. I know nothing, you are clued into the true reality. You don't misunderstand me, I twist things around. You are infallible, I'm clueless about spirituality. I guess I was wrong, you haven't changed one iota. You fail to address any actual content of my post and cherry-picked the things you disagree with, merely to point out how wrong I am.

its been done[video=youtube_share;8rwPovyR9HY]http://youtu.be/8rwPovyR9HY[/video] cant argue with someone who's life is subject to change only through experience and perception

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

Right, you got it all down. I know nothing, you are clued into the true reality. You don't misunderstand me, I twist things around. You are infallible, I'm clueless about spirituality.

I guess I was wrong, you haven't changed one iota. You fail to address any actual content of my post and cherry-picked the things you disagree with, merely to point out how wrong I am.

No, I acknowledged everything you said, as they have been said many times over. I just wanted to take the topic into a new direction instead of discussing the same old same old. I genuinely wanted to know your side of the things I brought up. It seems I have to agree with the judgements you placed upon me though in order for you to respect anything I say... I am so arrogant...

 

[tyler.durden]

I dont think I need the self examination. I know who I am, I've experienced a lot in my 21 years...

I never said I dont need self-assessment, I just dont need it in the way you think I need it...

Forget and move the goalposts much? Ah, you're 21! I get it now, I was a similar arrogant ass when I was that age: knew nothing but thought I knew everything, and everyone but me could see it. If your experience is anything like mine was, your life will fall apart at some point soon and your immature beliefs along with it. Afterward, I hope you start building from a solid foundation of reason, logic and may as well throw in a dash of humility...

 

[Heisenberg]

And I'm skeptical on sciences ability to discover reality. I think DMT is a better tool than science to discover reality, imo. Which supposedly is illogical, I know.

You are not skeptical, you are doubtful. Skepticism is structured doubt, systematic. There is no system to your doubt, it operates on bias. Skeptisism seeks to identify bias. What you have is unreasonable distrust.

I understand the skeptical views on personal experiences and am not trying to convince anyone. Though I did get aggressively challenged by those that thought telepathy was ridiculous as if they wanted me to prove it true even though they knew reported experiences are not evidence at all.

You expected to be widely accepted with no questions? You made an agressive report, of course we are curious and doubtful. Do you want to live in a world where we just accept everything said?

You know nothing of spirituality. Though I think its about testing yourself and see how much you can develop and how you can positively influence those around you.

We know nothing? Obviously we know a lot and are able to much more specific and consicise than you are when we talk about it. You misuse words, confuse meanings, contradict yourself and double speak. You have all the earmarks of a confused and disorganized mind grasping for the straws of spirituality.

Yes, I doubt what you have labelled credulous, as I still believe in everything that I did before I joined this site.

Again you see this as an attack on you, when it is an attack on ideas you posit. We do not keep tallies on the number of beliefs we have destroyed, or even care. A person can only change their own beliefs. You are so convinced that we are doing this to be loyal to the 'atheistic scientist' stance that you have not considered any other reasons, which is a perfect example of how you handle all topics. Go with the first notion that appeals, find confirmation and ignore discomfirmation.

How many illogical thinkers have you got to think logically? Your goal to logically enlighten people seems illogical since very few take your words into consideration.

Who are you speaking for? Most of us take your words seriously and genuinely engage you, you are the one who treats posts to you like volleyballs and hit them back as quickly as possible hoping we will drop it. You consider a post for as long as it takes you to construct a comeback, but never once do you examine that comeback and see if it is constructive or if it even makes sense. You simply scan words to see where you can attack, because if you attack, you don't have to defend.

Unless of course you decide the post isn't worth reading. How confident can we be on your ideas when you are willing to skip any information that is too hard to read. Is being lazy part of the spiritual paradigm?

You are twisting things around and putting words in my mouth. I never said I dont need self-assessment, I just dont need it in the way you think I need it.

Dude, he quoted you and then commented. How can he twist your words around if they came from you? The fault would be yours for not making yourself clear.

So you are saying you need self assessment, but only in the ways which confirm what you think. You know Cheif, we are talking about critical self assessment. Not self-awareness. We are not talking about patting yourself on the back, we are talking about showing your work to yourself and grading it objectionably. Good luck in life if you think you get everything right the first time through. That makes you immune to correction, even self-correction.

I am very aware of my actions and how I interact and influence people in the real world. It is a part of spirituality to evaluate yourself to see where you need improvements. Gotta know myself to know god.

So how has spirituality improved you? You just said that you have no changed your beliefs, and your slight change in conduct is a result of us challenging you. You have been here for many months now, what has spirituality shown you in that time? You mind is stagnant going over the same ideas without fully seeing what they are. There may be bloating, but no real growth.

Do you really think you have discovered something special? You come to us and say, hey guys I know science has controls which make it careful and ESP is as of yet unconfirmed, but guess what, if we take out the carefulness we can confirm ESP! Well no shit. If we forget about being careful we can demonstrate 2+2=22. We can prove just about any mind-over-matter ability with those standards, included the idea that listening to 'old' music makes your body physically younger. By your standard we can prove ALL claims of spirituality, not to mention gremlins, witches, voodoo, faith healing, astrology, dousing, homeopathy, Feng Shui, and the evil eye. Unless every single on of those is true and eluding the eyes of science, then your methodology leads to bad answers.

You hide behind the spiritual dichotomy for ESP, but you show the exact same attitude and reasoning when it comes to free energy. You scoff at the laws of thermodynamics because they are part of science, yet they have nothing to do with spirituality.

Please explain how holding to the concept of null hypothesis is materialistic. How is parsimony grounded in physical reality? Why is paying attention to things like confirmation bias against spirituality? You claim that to know the spirit you must forget the materialistic paradigm of science, but the things you change about science have nothing to do with materialism, not as the word is defined.

You tell us we need to look past our materialistic bias and when we ask how, you tell us we need to be biased, just in your way instead of ours.

Your ideas do not agree with materialism, dualism or idealism, which are the only three possible schools of thought on consciousness. You can either believe consciousness is a result of the brain (materialist) that is has nothing to do with the brain (idealist) or that is it a combination of the two (dualism). When your claims go against materialism you want to side with idealism or dualism, but when they go against dualism you want to use materialism to reconcile. You are in a category by yourself because your beliefs do not make sense or even hold an internal consistency, there is no discipline, just what feels right to you at any given time.

 

[Doer]

Not my fight, but the ambulatory one was putting that up as one of the extremes.
Also, Hindus and Buddhists believe that the physical world is an illusion and obstruction from studying true reality. It is an interesting idea, one hard to expunge when it takes hold. It has memetic power. I want some cookies. cn

In the world of duality, up/down, left/right, good/evil..in a world of paired opposites, we see the illusion only. There is only one Reality. Our perceptions of it is the unique snowflake of Consciousness. Our ability to see and experience this Objective, generally agreed upon side, is part of Consciousness, not necessarily all of Consciousness.

Buddhist and Hindu....no more confused than any other religion, to me. As you say, it is very compelling to dismiss it all as Illusion and not worth considering.

Karma, Luck, and Fate are all fatalist approaches. It creates Cast systems. No one is responsible. Everyone feels guilty for past lives. Illusion, also, I say.

 

[cannabineer]

And you never find anything out of the ordinary? Hmm, this puzzles me... I see something amazing almost every night. Be it a orb of light blink in and out of existence instantly, or a fixed object thought to be a star all of the sudden starts moving until it is out of site or blasts off into hyperspace. My sister sees these things, my friends see these things, I've talked to two guys on this site that see these things. I'm not even surprised anymore when I see it happen. What puzzles me is that you havent seen anything unusual during your star gazing. Is there a certain mindset you need have that doesnt involve mental trickery in order to see these things? Are the creators of these things selective to who gets to see them? Do these things only happen in certain parts of the world? If its just our imagination, why are people from different parts of the world describing the same thing? Tonight I will look up and ask for answers, maybe they'll listen lol.

I have never seen anything truly unnatural. The only time I've seen stars start up and accelerate, drugs were involved. I haven't seen, and don't see, what you describe. I routinely see flashes and twinkles but not orbs. The flashes and twinkles have all been consistent with satellite flares: momentary reflections of sunlight from a flat polished surface, typically a solar panel.
Wanna have some fun? Go to heavens-above.com, enter your observer's coordinates, and look up Iridium flares. The first one you see with a combination of binos, a good watch, and the provided time/sky coordinates ... is great fun. i find satellite passes at heavens-above to be a superior training aid for becoming familiar with the constellations. The sky is home to dozens of my own private asterisms, star arrangements I've named.

But about the bolded, my instinct is to reverse it, to suggest that the mental trickery might explain seeing those things as opposed to not. As I am not seeing them, but I'm seeing all the normal stuff, my impression that we live in a world of nature is undisturbed.
So my former complaint about portability applies here. You see those things but I do not. Which is real, and which is illusion? I don't have an answer that is more than subjective and provisional, of course. But for me to agree on a phenomenon, we'd both need to see it, right?
It's a shame that if (as you assert) so many people are seeing so many things, there is so little photo/video documentation. While such doc. is naturally fraught ... if there were thirty million vids instead of thirty ... that would have a certain sort of weight. It would at least lift above the noise floor of the weird things some people say they experience. cn

 

[Heisenberg]

"Science is best defined as a careful, disciplined, logical search for knowledge about any and all aspects of the universe, obtained by examination of the best available evidence and always subject to correction and improvement upon discovery of better evidence. What's left is magic. And it doesn't work." - James Randi

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. " -Voltaire

 

[tyler.durden]

"Science is best defined as a careful, disciplined, logical search for knowledge about any and all aspects of the universe, obtained by examination of the best available evidence and always subject to correction and improvement upon discovery of better evidence. What's left is magic. And it doesn't work." - James Randi

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. " -Voltaire

Thanks for the new siggy...

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

You are not skeptical, you are doubtful. Skepticism is structured doubt, systematic. There is no system to your doubt, it operates on bias. Skeptisism seeks to identify bias. What you have is unreasonable distrust.



You expected to be widely accepted with no questions? You made an agressive report, of course we are curious and doubtful. Do you want to live in a world where we just accept everything said?



We know nothing? Obviously we know a lot and are able to much more specific and consicise than you are when we talk about it. You misuse words, confuse meanings, contradict yourself and double speak. You have all the earmarks of a confused and disorganized mind grasping for the straws of spirituality.




Again you see this as an attack on you, when it is an attack on ideas you posit. We do not keep tallies on the number of beliefs we have destroyed, or even care. A person can only change their own beliefs. You are so convinced that we are doing this to be loyal to the 'atheistic scientist' stance that you have not considered any other reasons, which is a perfect example of how you handle all topics. Go with the first notion that appeals, find confirmation and ignore discomfirmation.



Who are you speaking for? Most of us take your words seriously and genuinely engage you, you are the one who treats posts to you like volleyballs and hit them back as quickly as possible hoping we will drop it. You consider a post for as long as it takes you to construct a comeback, but never once do you examine that comeback and see if it is constructive or if it even makes sense. You simply scan words to see where you can attack, because if you attack, you don't have to defend.

Unless of course you decide the post isn't worth reading. How confident can we be on your ideas when you are willing to skip any information that is too hard to read. Is being lazy part of the spiritual paradigm?




Dude, he quoted you and then commented. How can he twist your words around if they came from you? The fault would be yours for not making yourself clear.

So you are saying you need self assessment, but only in the ways which confirm what you think. You know Cheif, we are talking about critical self assessment. Not self-awareness. We are not talking about patting yourself on the back, we are talking about showing your work to yourself and grading it objectionably. Good luck in life if you think you get everything right the first time through. That makes you immune to correction, even self-correction.



So how has spirituality improved you? You just said that you have no changed your beliefs, and your slight change in conduct is a result of us challenging you. You have been here for many months now, what has spirituality shown you in that time? You mind is stagnant going over the same ideas without fully seeing what they are. There may be bloating, but no real growth.

Do you really think you have discovered something special? You come to us and say, hey guys I know science has controls which make it careful and ESP is as of yet unconfirmed, but guess what, if we take out the carefulness we can confirm ESP! Well no shit. If we forget about being careful we can demonstrate 2+2=22. We can prove just about any mind-over-matter ability with those standards, included the idea that listening to 'old' music makes your body physically younger. By your standard we can prove ALL claims of spirituality, not to mention gremlins, witches, voodoo, faith healing, astrology, dousing, homeopathy, Feng Shui, and the evil eye. Unless every single on of those is true and eluding the eyes of science, then your methodology leads to bad answers.

You hide behind the spiritual dichotomy for ESP, but you show the exact same attitude and reasoning when it comes to free energy. You scoff at the laws of thermodynamics because they are part of science, yet they have nothing to do with spirituality.

Please explain how holding to the concept of null hypothesis is materialistic. How is parsimony grounded in physical reality? Why is paying attention to things like confirmation bias against spirituality? You claim that to know the spirit you must forget the materialistic paradigm of science, but the things you change about science have nothing to do with materialism, not as the word is defined.

You tell us we need to look past our materialistic bias and when we ask how, you tell us we need to be biased, just in your way instead of ours.

Your ideas do not agree with materialism, dualism or idealism, which are the only three possible schools of thought on consciousness. You can either believe consciousness is a result of the brain (materialist) that is has nothing to do with the brain (idealist) or that is it a combination of the two (dualism). When your claims go against materialism you want to side with idealism or dualism, but when they go against dualism you want to use materialism to reconcile. You are in a category by yourself because your beliefs do not make sense or even hold an internal consistency, there is no discipline, just what feels right to you at any given time.

Yeah I guess doubt is a better word than skeptical. Skeptical would mean that I might consider it a better tool for discovering reality if someone made the right argument, but I see that as illogical considering the experiences I "hide" behind.

I dont expect it to be widely accepted, I was just talking about an experience. According to you guys, most of those experiences are bullshit and shouldnt be taken seriously when hearing about such an experience, and you knew that I could say nothing that would change your opinion of my experience. So it just ended up being pointless bickering.

Really? You know a lot about something that you dont practice and consider it illogical to practice it? You THINK you know that spirituality is probably useless because spirit, god, and the spirit world have yet to be scientifically proven to exist, so you repeatedly compare them to things like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny as if those things prove a point.

I didnt see it as an attack. I answered MP's question if I doubt my own credulousness.

I have been defending, but defending leads to nothing with you guys, when it comes to these topics at least. Its always "heres my accusations, and heres why you are wrong and illogical. Your move" no matter what I say because you are in complete disagreement with what I say, yet instead of agreeing to disagree you continue singing "The song that never ends". So I figured I'd just start asking questions as well, since explaining and defending is so useless when up against the logic police.

Lol, you said "dude", that surprised the shit out of me... Anyways, I guess he did quote me, and I wasn't making myself clear. Everyone needs self assessment. I dont think I should be assessed only according to me, thats destructive. I look how I treat my friends, acquaintances, and other people in my life. If I'm affecting people in a negative way then I look at the situation to see who is at fault. Weed is a great tool for self reflection. I consider myself a good judge of character and facial expressions, I am very observant with things like that. I often know where situations are going before anyone else does. I like bringing the bad news before hand like when someones girlfriend is about to give him shit lol. I just dont think I need the self assessment in the way you guys think I do. When being pointlessly and aggressively engaged by the logic police about my beliefs, this is who I am. I take the people around me seriously but not so much here. We both have negative opinions about each other but apparently only my opinion is biased and unreasonable.

Spirituality has shown me a few things, none of which you will take seriously because you consider it all woo lol. I have more vivid, amazing dreams and can become lucid (before waking up) a few times a month. I have learned to see my aura and a few other peoples aura, I studied mine the most though. Most of the time it is just a faint light, sometimes it is a 1 inch tall flame of indigo around my whole body, beautiful to look at. I have finally started to meditate and am improving pretty quickly, I see a bunch of pretty colors that dance now, I am hoping this leads me to astral projection soon. And I studied what I think to be truths and you think to be delusions, thats about it. I am looking forward to the spiritual journey that awaits me.

Lol I can tell you are responding more emotionally for some reason. Your example is false, I never asked anyone to believe me, I just reported an experience, which didnt sit to well with you guys for some reason. You aggressively asked questions so I answered, even though you knew what ever I said wouldnt change anyones mind. I can only say that I was careful with how I came up with my decision that this was not trickery. I can only say that me and a group of people experienced telepathy countless times in many different situations and circumstances. I know you cannot take my word for it though. Im sure if scientifically tested by a respected institution of knowledge the results would come out positive every single time but I dont think my humble spiritual friend will like being a lab rat for quite a while. Especially if he thinks that science is obsessed and lost in a illusion of physical reality. They would not accept such spiritual answers from him. I dont think those that are in power would appreciate it if he tells some amazing truths about the world that would actually help humanity look past shallow consumer culture. The worlds realization of beautiful reality will destroy the power of the corrupted leaders... Thought I'd end with some crazy talk lol.

 

[tyler.durden]

You know, Chief, I understand why you cannot prove the telepathy thing as that would require your friend's consent, but you stated that you often see stars move in crazy ways. How easy it would be to record what you're seeing, you could then show the world your amazing discovery. What would you conclude if you saw one thing and recorded another, would you think your mind, or the objective recording, was wrong?

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

You know, Chief, I understand why you cannot prove the telepathy thing as that would require your friend's consent, but you stated that you often see stars move in crazy ways. How easy it would be to record what you're seeing, you could then show the world your amazing discovery. What would you conclude if you saw one thing and recorded another, would you think your mind, or the objective recording, was wrong?

Well that would be odd if I seen one thing and recorded another. I dont think it is an illusion though. My sister is not spiritual and she kinda thinks Im a little crazy, same with my best friend, yet they see everything that I see and they have completely different mindsets. Same with a few of my friends and two people I talked to on here. Same exact sightings. I find it hard to believe that we are all just making these images form in our imagination and convincing ourselves that they're real because everyone is seeing the exact same thing. Thats why it puzzles me so much that Neer doesnt see anything out of the ordinary. My guess is that consciousness effects reality and when he looks up hes convinced hes only going to see what he thinks is natural and the heavens show him just that. Its up in the air though. I dont know what to think about stars now that I seen what I thought to be stars fly around the sky and blast off at impossible speeds. I want to lean towards aliens but these ships take the form of fixated stars then they move around. The idea that some stars arent what we think they are amazes me. Aliens dont really get my imagination going.

Would be a good experiment though, I dont know someone with a good cam corder so I'll probably just by my own, could put it to some good use.

 

[cannabineer]

Well that would be odd if I seen one thing and recorded another. I dont think it is an illusion though. My sister is not spiritual and she kinda thinks Im a little crazy, same with my best friend, yet they see everything that I see and they have completely different mindsets. Same with a few of my friends and two people I talked to on here. Same exact sightings. I find it hard to believe that we are all just making these images form in our imagination and convincing ourselves that they're real because everyone is seeing the exact same thing. Thats why it puzzles me so much that Neer doesnt see anything out of the ordinary. My guess is that consciousness effects reality and when he looks up hes convinced hes only going to see what he thinks is natural and the heavens show him just that. Its up in the air though. I dont know what to think about stars now that I seen what I thought to be stars fly around the sky and blast off at impossible speeds. I want to lean towards aliens but these ships take the form of fixated stars then they move around. The idea that some stars arent what we think they are amazes me. Aliens dont really get my imagination going.

Would be a good experiment though, I dont know someone with a good cam corder so I'll probably just by my own, could put it to some good use.

I sure hope not. I'd rather be an ordinary person in a mundane world ... than be a blind man in a spirit-bright world. That would feel personal.

It doesn't prove or disprove either ... this is an unadorned delivery of my feelings about that idea. cn

 

[cannabineer]

You know, Chief, I understand why you cannot prove the telepathy thing as that would require your friend's consent, but you stated that you often see stars move in crazy ways. How easy it would be to record what you're seeing, you could then show the world your amazing discovery. What would you conclude if you saw one thing and recorded another, would you think your mind, or the objective recording, was wrong?

It's why I submit the low number of Youtube videos as a highly circumstantial fragment of evidence "against". Unless, of course, machines and polar bears cannot sense them. cn

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

I sure hope not. I'd rather be an ordinary person in a mundane world ... than be a blind man in a spirit-bright world. That would feel personal.

It doesn't prove or disprove either ... this is an unadorned delivery of my feelings about that idea. cn

I dont think it would mean you are blind. Just that the universe reflects whats in you and it does that to every individual person, to an extent. Its all just an idea though. Maybe trying to focus on finding the "supernatural" when star gazing will bring you some eye opening results, who knows.

 

[cannabineer]

I dont think it would mean you are blind. Just that the universe reflects whats in you and it does that to every individual person, to an extent. Its all just an idea though. Maybe trying to focus on finding the "supernatural" when star gazing will bring you some eye opening results, who knows.

The odd thing is that my xgf says I have that rare quality among us Western moderns: the Wide-open Eye. I see things in nature that many others miss. My inner and outer eyes are wide-open when I'm under starry skies; my sense of awe is in full play then. I like to keep myself open to whatever I can experience. If I am indeed filtering, unconsciously blinding myself, my aware portion of me is definitely not in on it or good with it. So really, the two main choices here are either that you're seeing things I can't, or that I'm not seeing things that you really aren't either. I am not so wedded to my prejudices that I'll absolutely choose from those two. cn

 

[tyler.durden]

Well that would be odd if I seen one thing and recorded another. I dont think it is an illusion though. My sister is not spiritual and she kinda thinks Im a little crazy, same with my best friend, yet they see everything that I see and they have completely different mindsets. Same with a few of my friends and two people I talked to on here. Same exact sightings. I find it hard to believe that we are all just making these images form in our imagination and convincing ourselves that they're real because everyone is seeing the exact same thing. Thats why it puzzles me so much that Neer doesnt see anything out of the ordinary.

It's not only Neer that doesn't see anything out of the ordinary, but thousand of amateur and professional astronomers with million dollar equipment don't either...

My guess is that consciousness effects reality and when he looks up hes convinced hes only going to see what he thinks is natural and the heavens show him just that.

How many realities are there? If Neer's perception is that nothing extraordinary is there and that his perception changed reality, wouldn't we all be in that reality and see the same thing? Unless you're meaning that there's no objective reality, only billions of subjective realities, which would mean we're all correct about everything we experience...

Its up in the air though. I dont know what to think about stars now that I seen what I thought to be stars fly around the sky and blast off at impossible speeds. I want to lean towards aliens but these ships take the form of fixated stars then they move around. The idea that some stars arent what we think they are amazes me. Aliens dont really get my imagination going.

Would be a good experiment though, I dont know someone with a good cam corder so I'll probably just by my own, could put it to some good use.

If you're correct, that footage could win you fame and fortune. Get on it!

 

[eye exaggerate]

Does your experience have something to do with the electricity topic you were talking about?

...most everything about that stuff is related to magnetism / resonance. I'm not a huge fan of the idea that people affect things like this. However, it is plain to see when it happens between two people. Now, that's crazy