you're god does not exist

[Heisenberg]

That wasn't very nice, everyone has the right to believe in what they want, telling someone that (especially your grandmother) is very disrespectful. Not that I do or don't believe in a god, you can't prove that there is one or not, so even just by saying "stop believing in a comic book character" is flawed.

I would agree that it is not tactful, but I am not so sure it is disrespectful. This is assuming that it was the topic of conversation and he didn't just blurt it out as a random attack. I think it can be demonstrated that religion fosters delusions rather than beliefs. Beliefs arise from the mechanism of our brains trying to distinguish what information we gather is true and which is false, as it would be a waste of time and energy to act on false information, not to mention dangerous. Beliefs are therefore based on some sort of reasoning, in fact the better the reasoning, the more solid the belief. Religious ideas subvert the very intention of a belief system by operating on the opposite sentiment; That which is reasoned against is still important to pay attention to. Religion, belief in god, can not offer one shred of logical reasoning or objective evidence, yet still wants to be called a belief. When we hold an idea in the same regards as a belief, yet that idea lacks the fundamental properties of a belief, we call it a delusion.

So when a religious person asks you to respect their beliefs, they are operating under a false premise. We are not required to respect delusions.

 

[Padawanbater2]

Is it disrespectful to disrespect a belief of someone we respect? Or are we not really 'disrespecting' it or them by disagreeing with their belief?

 

[Heisenberg]

Is it disrespectful to disrespect a belief of someone we respect? Or are we not really 'disrespecting' it or them by disagreeing with their belief?

Calling Jesus a comic book character is disrespectful, but only in the sense that it would be disrespectful to say Matlock is an idiot to an old person.

 

[Padawanbater2]

Calling Jesus a comic book character is disrespectful, but only in the sense that it would be disrespectful to say Matlock is an idiot to an old person.

I agree, but I don't think any old people would

Should that​ matter?

 

[kpmarine]

I agree, but I don't think any old people would

Should that​ matter?

As my grandpa has said to me many times "Just because you can say something, doesn't mean you should.". You have to weigh the costs against the benefits in those situations. "Is the havoc this is going to cause on my relationship with this person worth the potential outcome?"

 

[Heisenberg]

I agree, but I don't think any old people would

Should that​ matter?

It depends on the context. As I said, it isn't tactful, but that doesn't mean it is a reason to censor. It is not disrespectful to challenge, it is not disrespectful to disagree, and if I was being told that Jesus was sending me to hell if I don't accept him, I don't think it would be disrespectful to call him a comic book character. If someone is talking about Jesus walking on water or coming back from the dead, I don't think it's disrespectful to call him a comic book character.

Now if grandma was saying grace and I interrupted her, that would be disrespectful. If grandma was simply saying she loves and admires Jesus, it would be disrespectful. ect.

 

[kpmarine]

It depends on the context. As I said, it isn't tactful, but that doesn't mean it is a reason to censor. It is not disrespectful to challenge, it is not disrespectful to disagree, and if I was being told that Jesus was sending me to hell if I don't accept him, I don't think it would be disrespectful to call him a comic book character. If someone is talking about Jesus walking on water or coming back from the dead, I don't think it's disrespectful to call him a comic book character.

Now if grandma was saying grace and I interrupted her, that would be disrespectful. If grandma was simply saying she loves and admires Jesus, it would be disrespectful. ect.

Totally agree, context is important. Also agree with the other point too. You can't expect me to leave your beliefs alone when you're trying to convert me. If you tell me a near-eastern zombie can absolve me of "sins" based on a rather oppressive set of rules that run counter to human nature, I am fully within my rights to tell you that is the most absurd thing I've heard all week.

That's why I like the Socratic method. If someone gets mad, I just say "But, I was only asking questions!".

 

[Padawanbater2]

It depends on the context. As I said, it isn't tactful, but that doesn't mean it is a reason to censor. It is not disrespectful to challenge, it is not disrespectful to disagree, and if I was being told that Jesus was sending me to hell if I don't accept him, I don't think it would be disrespectful to call him a comic book character. If someone is talking about Jesus walking on water or coming back from the dead, I don't think it's disrespectful to call him a comic book character.

Now if grandma was saying grace and I interrupted her, that would be disrespectful. If grandma was simply saying she loves and admires Jesus, it would be disrespectful. ect.

OK, that pretty much answered my question. It all depends on context..

So what if a person, or a relative, was on their death bed praying and asking you to pray with them, in your opinion, do you believe it would be disrespectful to hold their hand and 'pray' with them, even though you don't believe? Would it be disrespectful to tell them why? Would you just hold their hand and put politics aside for that moment to comfort them in their time of need?

 

[Heisenberg]

OK, that pretty much answered my question. It all depends on context..

So what if a person, or a relative, was on their death bed praying and asking you to pray with them, in your opinion, do you believe it would be disrespectful to hold their hand and 'pray' with them, even though you don't believe? Would it be disrespectful to tell them why? Would you just hold their hand and put politics aside for that moment to comfort them in their time of need?

I tried to bring this up in your other thread.

[video=youtube;txiW0Q4_Qsw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txiW0Q4_Qsw[/video]

By lying to his grandfather, was his integrity weakened? strengthened? Did he harm his Grandfather? Would he harm his Grandfather by not lying?

 

[Padawanbater2]

I tried to bring this up in your other thread.

[video=youtube;txiW0Q4_Qsw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txiW0Q4_Qsw[/video]

By lying to his grandfather, was his integrity weakened? strengthened? Did he harm his Grandfather? Would he harm his Grandfather by not lying?

Good questions. Imo, his integrity was not weakened because he understood and appreciated his grandfathers values, and dismissed his own in favor of support in a moment of vulnerability. That is nothing short of admirable.

I'm not sure if expressing your own personal beliefs harms those close to the end of their life, I think it would depend on how they lived their life.

Randi never ceases to impress me.

But..

..and I hate to bring this up, as it's the definition of scumbag mentality..

Why bother? Nobody else does.

I realize 'nobody' is my subjective opinion, but the more and more I look around, it seems like nobody else gives a fuck about where we're headed, or how we get there. They're in it for themselves.

I also realize this mentality only harms everyone else, because there are plenty of people who DO give a fuck.

It's just so hard to realize, so hard to see and so hard to get on board with a world that, in my view, really doesn't care.

From my vantage point, it looks like more and more people are tired of paying higher taxes, even if it supports the less fortunate or education, because they're viewed and portrayed as 'moochers', education is fine and dandy according to the gov., why bother with changing it? (ridiculous!) The corruption is so rampant it's unbelievably difficult to have faith in anything they do, even if they came out and said "LETS END HOMELESSNESS!", I'd be skeptical of their motivations, and I know I'm not alone..

Education is embarrassing in this country, pitiful, your average 5th grader doesn't have any kind of grasp on history, science, and literature is there to enforce reading comprehension. WHY reading, WHY mathematics, WHY history is so important is never discussed. I remember my history teacher telling me "history is important because those that don't understand it are doomed to repeat it", and that's it. No explanation, no follow up, nothing..

 

[kpmarine]

Good questions. Imo, his integrity was not weakened because he understood and appreciated his grandfathers values, and dismissed his own in favor of support in a moment of vulnerability. That is nothing short of admirable.

I'm not sure if expressing your own personal beliefs harms those close to the end of their life, I think it would depend on how they lived their life.

Randi never ceases to impress me.

But..

..and I hate to bring this up, as it's the definition of scumbag mentality..

Why bother? Nobody else does.

I realize 'nobody' is my subjective opinion, but the more and more I look around, it seems like nobody else gives a fuck about where we're headed, or how we get there. They're in it for themselves.

I also realize this mentality only harms everyone else, because there are plenty of people who DO give a fuck.

It's just so hard to realize, so hard to see and so hard to get on board with a world that, in my view, really doesn't care.

From my vantage point, it looks like more and more people are tired of paying higher taxes, even if it supports the less fortunate or education, because they're viewed and portrayed as 'moochers', education is fine and dandy according to the gov., why bother with changing it? (ridiculous!) The corruption is so rampant it's unbelievably difficult to have faith in anything they do, even if they came out and said "LETS END HOMELESSNESS!", I'd be skeptical of their motivations, and I know I'm not alone..

Education is embarrassing in this country, pitiful, your average 5th grader doesn't have any kind of grasp on history, science, and literature is there to enforce reading comprehension. WHY reading, WHY mathematics, WHY history is so important is never discussed. I remember my history teacher telling me "history is important because those that don't understand it are doomed to repeat it", and that's it. No explanation, no follow up, nothing..

Straight from the texas GOP platform: "Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values
clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based
Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging
the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority." Scary, no?

 

[lokie]

Is it disrespectful to disrespect a belief of someone we respect? Or are we not really 'disrespecting' it or them by disagreeing with their belief?

Respect can be won or lost without the need to be rude. people disagree all of the time and can
conduct themselves in a civil manner without respect coming into question, however being intentionally
rude is often anti productive and can escalate a non-issue to the ranks of pandemonium in the blink of an eye.

To engage someone and call their deity a comic book figure could certainly be construed as
disrespectful or rude or both depending on the context of the situation and maturity of the parties involved.

To agree to disagree is an example of respect and disbelief. Respect is not equal to belief.

When the dialog gets broken down to base emotion things tend get worse.
Once ATTITUDE shows up progress is severely crippled until one side capitulates, both concur or one is conquered.

 

[Amaximus]

Do you really not know that stars are considered planets or are you joking? I think they teach us that at age 5.

Any luck researching what a sun is? Or you still think it's a planet?

 

[guy incognito]

Is it disrespectful to disrespect a belief of someone we respect? Or are we not really 'disrespecting' it or them by disagreeing with their belief?

No. Just because you respect someone as a person doesn't mean all their beliefs get a free pass.

What if instead of jesus your grandfather worshipped zues? Would you feel the need to respect that belief, even though you know it is false?

Fuck that. You don't get a free pass for respect for any belief.

 

[Heisenberg]

Good questions. Imo, his integrity was not weakened because he understood and appreciated his grandfathers values, and dismissed his own in favor of support in a moment of vulnerability. That is nothing short of admirable.

I'm not sure if expressing your own personal beliefs harms those close to the end of their life, I think it would depend on how they lived their life.

Randi never ceases to impress me.

But..

..and I hate to bring this up, as it's the definition of scumbag mentality..

Why bother? Nobody else does.

I realize 'nobody' is my subjective opinion, but the more and more I look around, it seems like nobody else gives a fuck about where we're headed, or how we get there. They're in it for themselves.

I also realize this mentality only harms everyone else, because there are plenty of people who DO give a fuck.

It's just so hard to realize, so hard to see and so hard to get on board with a world that, in my view, really doesn't care.

From my vantage point, it looks like more and more people are tired of paying higher taxes, even if it supports the less fortunate or education, because they're viewed and portrayed as 'moochers', education is fine and dandy according to the gov., why bother with changing it? (ridiculous!) The corruption is so rampant it's unbelievably difficult to have faith in anything they do, even if they came out and said "LETS END HOMELESSNESS!", I'd be skeptical of their motivations, and I know I'm not alone..

Education is embarrassing in this country, pitiful, your average 5th grader doesn't have any kind of grasp on history, science, and literature is there to enforce reading comprehension. WHY reading, WHY mathematics, WHY history is so important is never discussed. I remember my history teacher telling me "history is important because those that don't understand it are doomed to repeat it", and that's it. No explanation, no follow up, nothing..

You do it because of personal satisfaction and to derive meaning from contributing to life. You do it because it reflects your personal convictions and follows the principals you use to anchor your life. Do not worry about those who have never bothered to define principals and so float around on a divine raft. You do it because the universe (you) has given to you via intelligence the opportunity to make the universe (you) a better place. Nothing else in the universe has that option.

 

[Moebius]

No. Just because you respect someone as a person doesn't mean all their beliefs get a free pass.

What if instead of jesus your grandfather worshipped zues? Would you feel the need to respect that belief, even though you know it is false?

Fuck that. You don't get a free pass for respect for any belief.

Zues?or Zeus? ..... I suppose it doesn't matter what you call him.

I don't give a fig, whether people respect my beliefs or not. As long as they treat 'me' with respect. That only involves leaving me to have my beliefs as all Humans have the right to do.

 

[cannabineer]

Is it disrespectful to disrespect a belief of someone we respect? Or are we not really 'disrespecting' it or them by disagreeing with their belief?

I can see this two ways, depending on the semantic spin on "belief".

On the one hand, the atheists (including the odd Recursive Agnostic) among us consider religion to be a colossal and at times injurious fraud. So we don't respect the belief as a corpus.

On the other, we respect this person. That means we have a high regard for that person's virtues, and (as a natural consequence of the human sense of loyalty) a certain forgiveness, even affection, for their quirks. Add to this that a religious/philosophical belief is at or near what we consider the core of our being. So to openly snipe at someone's belief can and often does get interpreted as an attack on that person's, uhm, person.

We can disrespect the belief. But for our respect of that person to be a whole, honest thing, it becomes our duty to respect that person's believing. Jmo. cn

 

[Moebius]

For me ... there are three options in how to treat anothers belief.

Respect, Disrespect, and Indifference.

I tend to feel indifference towards others belief. Why should I care what people believe? I'm more interested in what I'm having for dinner.

 

[cannabineer]

Shades of W.C. Fields. "A man has to believe in something. I believe I'll have another drink." cn

 

[Moebius]

Shades of W.C. Fields. "A man has to believe in something. I believe I'll have another drink." cn

I was going to reply "Great minds think alike" ... but that wouldn't be accurate.

"It is only those who have not thought that appear to agree" Thomas Paine (1792)