Abortion, if you object does that mean you want to control women's uteri

[Rob Roy]

i'm more interested in hearing a supposed libertarian tell me what the punishment will be for a woman who dares to exercise autonomy over her own body after an arbitrary date that he decides on by seemingly pulling it out of his ass.

On the other hand could you tell me when you believe "exercising autonomy" over her own body stops and an abortion becomes an act of aggression (murder?) against another living being? When / where is your line in the sand?

 

[Rob Roy]

I would say liberal for a polar bear, but my polar bear knowledge is a pretty small sample size. You could be conservative for a polar bear. I just don't know for sure.

I'm still leaning liberal for a polar bear but you would be in the extreme right wing of the penguin section.

FWIW - The other day I was at a dollar store and they featured a Santa Claus kind of candy with a picture of Santa hanging out with a penguin. This got me thinking...Of course this is false advertising...Santa and Polar bears hang out at the north pole. Penguins, the south pole. Therefore I submit CN (being a polar bear) cannot be in the extreme right wing of the penguin section....wrong hemisphere. ....for all of these reasons I passed on buying the candy despite a severe case of the "munchies".

 

[Harrekin]

On the other hand could you tell me when you believe "exercising autonomy" over her own body stops and an abortion becomes an act of aggression (murder?) against another living being? When / where is your line in the sand?

Bucks wife only fucks other people, so he'll never have to make that call.

Onlypaedossaywhat.

 

[cannabineer]

On the other hand could you tell me when you believe "exercising autonomy" over her own body stops and an abortion becomes an act of aggression (murder?) against another living being? When / where is your line in the sand?

Killing a rat is aggression against another living being.
This argument ... can abortion be OK? If so, when? ... hinges on when we decide the conceptus assumes or acquires personhood. Eight-month fetus? Person, almost certainly. Five-week pimple? Not a person, just as evidently. Somewhere in between, and at this point it's pretty danged arbitrary. And the arbiters tend to be grown men, often motivated by completely nonbiological doctrines.
As a grown man myself, i draw the line at something I do not have ... a woman's body. It seems simplest that way. cn

 

[cannabineer]

FWIW - The other day I was at a dollar store and they featured a Santa Claus kind of candy with a picture of Santa hanging out with a penguin. This got me thinking...Of course this is false advertising...Santa and Polar bears hang out at the north pole. Penguins, the south pole. Therefore I submit CN (being a polar bear) cannot be in the extreme right wing of the penguin section....wrong hemisphere. ....for all of these reasons I passed on buying the candy despite a severe case of the "munchies".

I must say that I am impressed and not a little heartwarmed that I influenced a candy-buying decision in the real world somewhere. Might I recommend a beverage? ~cackling, ducking~ cn

 

[desert dude]

Abortion comes down to personal freedom. You have no more right to tell me what I do with my body, which would include any extension of potential life, than I do with yours. You like eating Pork ribs? Well, guess what? They're high in cholesterol, it's unhealthy, you're no longer allowed to eat them. There is literally no difference. You enjoy smoking, you guessed it!

This is where the conflict arises. Your body is under COMPLETE control of yourself. I have NO SAY in matters which include YOUR BODY. It's YOURS, as is your car, your house or your family. How would you like it if I came into your house and claimed your second story staircase doesn't meet safety standards? How would you like it if I came into your garage and told you your car doesn't meet smog requirements? You'd tell me to get lost and not come back, right?

Your body has nothing to do with ME. This is where Americans have lost it. Your opinion of my life has no bearing on it, worry about yourself, your own life. You don't support abortion, DON'T GET ONE! Problem solved. It's not your job to protest and fight for every fetus. It's your job to shut the fuck up and keep to yourself.

If only it were that simple, little bater. A baby is not a pork chop, or a cigarette. Abortion is a difficult topic for a reason, and it becomes more difficult with every day of gestation that passes. At some point that fetus becomes a person and in the US it is highly illegal to arbitrarily kill a person, they even have a name for such an act, murder.

 

[cannabineer]

Terminology is important, and much of the war for our hearts&minds is waged with it. I would suggest that it isn't a baby until after the wet popping sound ... cn

 

[desert dude]

Killing a rat is aggression against another living being.
This argument ... can abortion be OK? If so, when? ... hinges on when we decide the conceptus assumes or acquires personhood. Eight-month fetus? Person, almost certainly. Five-week pimple? Not a person, just as evidently. Somewhere in between, and at this point it's pretty danged arbitrary. And the arbiters tend to be grown men, often motivated by completely nonbiological doctrines.
As a grown man myself, i draw the line at something I do not have ... a woman's body. It seems simplest that way. cn

I agree with you, except for the "arbiters" part. That is just Kulture war bullshit. Women are just as likely as men to oppose abortion. There are lots of polls to back up this statement.

 

[cannabineer]

I agree with you, except for the "arbiters" part. That is just Kulture war bullshit. Women are just as likely as men to oppose abortion. There are lots of polls to back up this statement.

I went looking for stats and concede the point. However both church and state politics are principally a man's game. I extrapolated from there, and made a mistake. cn

 

[desert dude]

I went looking for stats and concede the point. However both church and state politics are principally a man's game. I extrapolated from there, and made a mistake. cn

No problem. At least you are willing to look at facts and not claim the facts, themselves, are 'RACIST, SEXIST, AGEIST", etc. I myself am a factist.

 

[cannabineer]

You factist, you. cn

 

[DonPepe]

I only wish men we afforded the same "grace" period at the beginning of the pregnancy to decide weather they wanted to be associated with the fetus or not. perhaps 2 weeks less than is allotted for women.

but i have come to the conclusion that equality is to much to ask for these days.

 

[cannabineer]

I only wish men we afforded the same "grace" period at the beginning of the pregnancy to decide weather they wanted to be associated with the fetus or not. perhaps 2 weeks less than is allotted for women.

but i have come to the conclusion that equality is to much to ask for these days.

The question is: is it equality, or an attempt to invoke a notional equality to justify keeping our noses in women's ... oh look! Paint!! cn

 

[DonPepe]

The question is: is it equality, or an attempt to invoke a notional equality to justify keeping our noses in women's ... oh look! Paint!! cn

i'm not interested in what she chooses to do, i only wish to be afforded the same choice before undertaking an 18 year obligation to an inhuman fetus. what she chooses to do after i'm out is 100% her call, but it seems unfair to to require males to hold to choices made one drunken night in the bar bathroom when women can choose to alleviate themselves of the obligation.

i'm not asking for any input as to weather she gives birth to a child spawned from my DNA or not, i just feel the choice should be made independently by for parties involved.

i accept that should i choose to keep it and her to not, the the final answer is not, or should i choose to not and she choose to have it anyways then she can still have it. I only ask for her not to have total control over the next 18 years of my life.

 

[cannabineer]

i'm not interested in what she chooses to do, i only wish to be afforded the same choice before undertaking an 18 year obligation to an inhuman fetus. what she chooses to do after i'm out is 100% her call, but it seems unfair to to require males to hold to choices made one drunken night in the bar bathroom when women can choose to alleviate themselves of the obligation.

For those drunken-night situations, there is a wonderful option. cn

 

[desert dude]

For those drunken-night situations, there is a wonderful option. cn

Is that a pope hat?

 

[cannabineer]

It miter be ... cn

 

[DonPepe]

For those drunken-night situations, there is a wonderful option. cn

UOTE]


hasn't that option been around since before the abortion debates? isn't it available to both men and women? if that's the answer then why do we need abortion..... rape? (pretty sure no one has a problem with post rape abortions)

can you give one reason a man should be held accountable for an accidental pregnancy and a women shouldn't?

 

[cannabineer]

For those drunken-night situations, there is a wonderful option. cn

UOTE]


hasn't that option been around since before the abortion debates? isn't it available to both men and women? if that's the answer then why do we need abortion..... rape? (pretty sure no one has a problem with post rape abortions)

The distinction I was looking to make was between casual sex and sex in a relationship. Your earlier scenario was based in a situation in which only an idiot male would assume that risk. In a relationship, contraception failure can occur, and I would think abortion would be the "go to" in that instance.

Even so, I think abortion as a primary means of contraception is neither necessary nor good. cn

<add> Men and women can buy condoms. But the responsibility always falls to the man to wear the damned thing. A man who expects the woman to produce the condom ... doesn't get my respect.

 

[DonPepe]

The distinction I was looking to make was between casual sex and sex in a relationship. Your earlier scenario was based in a situation in which only an idiot male would assume that risk. In a relationship, contraception failure can occur, and I would think abortion would be the "go to" in that instance.

Even so, I think abortion as a primary means of contraception is neither necessary nor good. cn

<add> Men and women can buy condoms. But the responsibility always falls to the man to wear the damned thing. A man who expects the woman to produce the condom ... doesn't get my respect.

despite the social bias and sexism, i see where you're coming from,... err what you mean and personalty agree.

but at this point we are discussing principle. and i can't see the principle that supports why a man should be held accountable for an accidental pregnancy and a woman shouldn't.