The riddle of the gun; looking at both sides of the gun debate

Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
I would say there is an excellent chance. There are two components to war: the physical and the moral. You can have the best weapons in the world and still not win the moral war. This is why revolution is such a strong force ... when the populace is behind it in majority.
The standing army cannot win the moral war against domestic insurgents. At best, they can fight it to a draw when a cohesive nation is shattered. Jmo. cn
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You're assuming a 'movie-esque' uprising.

While I admire your vision, most people who are told to do something by their boss or someone in power, do it. It's how our psychology works. Kind of sucks, but it's true.

All you people claiming to be the next 'Wolverines' sure talk big, but talk is cheap mother fuckers, and I bet a good portion of you would either do nothing, or run and hide, if shit hit the fan.

As much as I would like to believe that every single person only has a 'fight' response, it's called a 'fight or flight' response for a reason.
 
Doer

Doer

Well-Known Member
NoDrama said:
So just ONE guy can distill enough fuel to run the largest army in the entire world? Private Johnson reporting for duty. If it really were that easy, why do refineries have so many employees?
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Dude. you changed the base premise. I was responding to one guy makes one gal from one barrel. There are about 8 gals per barrel, I think. Well, I can't give you distilling 101, but you can find it.

First off, a refinery is operating a union shop.
A refinery is producing giant volumes of many petro-chemicals.
A refinery is operating under govt restrictions

But, what they are doing is making black moonshine. Abrams tanks and A-10s will run on paraffin and axle grease, reduced with diesel. In Stryker they have the Cat 3126B turbo diesel. So, you see, we are moving the forces away from boutique quality gasoline, (now with Valvoline)

BTW, the military problem is not making fuel. It is the logistics of keeping up with the tanks and fueling the A-10s.
They say, in war, the noobs think tactics.
The smart ones think strategy,
The truly brilliant think logistics. :)
 
Doer

Doer

Well-Known Member
Beefbisquit said:
You're assuming a 'movie-esque' uprising.

As much as I would like to believe that every single person only has a 'fight' response, it's called a 'fight or flight' response for a reason.
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Well I don't know if he is assuming anything or not, but I agree that when the shit hits, no one knows. The enemy will choose the time and place. And then it proceeds. In other words we could be in WW3 already, when we look back from some future point.

Here is what happens, historically. And remember the Gestapo now wears beards and speaks Arabic.

Martin Niemöller
First they came for the communist.
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialist.
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the jews.
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the catholics.
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

​
 
Mr Neutron

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Beefbisquit said:
I bet a good portion of you would either do nothing, or run and hide, if shit hit the fan.
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So, what would YOU do? Drop to your knees, beg for mercy and then volunteer to be cannon fodder?
It doesn't matter. There were plenty of people like you around in 1776, too.
 
Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Mr Neutron said:
So, what would YOU do? Drop to your knees, beg for mercy and then volunteer to be cannon fodder?
It doesn't matter. There were plenty of people like you around in 1776, too.
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Not likely, if I didn't have a gun on me I'd get the fuck outta dodge. If I did, well, I guess we'd have to see. I used to be in the forces, and I own over a dozen firearms. I stopped going to the range about half a year ago when my membership ran out. lol I'd like to think I'd respond well, but shooting is a perishable skill, and my days in the forces are long behind me.

Most people who aren't trained, have a tendency to freeze up, make stupid decisions, or just run.
 
desert dude

desert dude

Well-Known Member
Beefbisquit said:
You're assuming a 'movie-esque' uprising.

While I admire your vision, most people who are told to do something by their boss or someone in power, do it. It's how our psychology works. Kind of sucks, but it's true.

All you people claiming to be the next 'Wolverines' sure talk big, but talk is cheap mother fuckers, and I bet a good portion of you would either do nothing, or run and hide, if shit hit the fan.

As much as I would like to believe that every single person only has a 'fight' response, it's called a 'fight or flight' response for a reason.
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What you is true. Many would knuckle under, and that might be the end of the insurrection. However, your scenario has also been true for every insurrection throughout history, and as we know, a fair number of insurrections have been successful. Look at the middle east as we speak. Syrian rebels are being slaughtered but it looks like they are going to win against Assad. Libyan rebels defeated the standing army of Libya. American colonists defeated the world's super power in America's war of Independence.

What you are saying is that we have to abandon all hope because the task of defeating a government gone bad is utterly impossible. It is the slave mentality. Just roll over and accept it. History has shown repeatedly that you are simply wrong.

Every US military officer takes an oath to uphold and defend the constitution. If the US government goes rogue, some of those officers are going to abide by their oath and the US military is going to fracture. If a legitimate insurrection arises I think it would have very good chance at success, the key word here is "legitimate" though.

I am not saying, nor do I believe, that the US is anywhere close to a revolution. The US is polarized but we can work out our differences peacefully, I think.

There has been at least one plot to overthrow the US government: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot. It failed because it was a simple power grab and was illegitimate. Supposedly George H W Bush's father was one of the key plotters, so all of you Bush haters ought to embrace the story.
 
Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
The only thing I'm saying is that while the 'overthrow a tyrannical government' had extremely large merit back in the 1700's, it's merit is small at best with the advent of modern warfare technology.

However, it in no way lessens the self-defense merit of firearms. They will probably always be the best form of self defense. Well, some form of ranged weapon with 1-shot-kill capability will always be the best form of self defense.
 
FlyLikeAnEagle

FlyLikeAnEagle

Well-Known Member
desert dude said:
So what?

Seriously, how does your interpretation of the prospects of success by a civilian uprising against the US federal government alter the constitutions authors' reason for writing the second amendment? Even if your analysis is correct, it has absolutely no relevance to why the second amendment was written.
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Funny how right wingers hide behind the constitution when it comes to the 2nd Amendment and guns but hate it and want to change it when it comes to the 14th Amendment and citizenship.


House Republicans Introduce Bill to Repeal Birthright Citizenship Amendment
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...hip-amendment/
 
Mr Neutron

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
FlyLikeAnEagle said:
Funny how right wingers hide behind the constitution when it comes to the 2nd Amendment and guns but hate it and want to change it when it comes to the 14th Amendment and citizenship.


House Republicans Introduce Bill to Repeal Birthright Citizenship Amendment
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...hip-amendment/
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Funny how some people still think it's only left or right.
It's called the amendment process. You hate guns? You can get the 2nd A repealed.
 
desert dude

desert dude

Well-Known Member
FlyLikeAnEagle said:
Funny how right wingers hide behind the constitution when it comes to the 2nd Amendment and guns but hate it and want to change it when it comes to the 14th Amendment and citizenship.


House Republicans Introduce Bill to Repeal Birthright Citizenship Amendment
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...hip-amendment/
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What's funny to me is that you don't see the irony in your own post. Whatever your opinion on birth right citizenship, the Republicans, proposing a constitutional amendment are doing things the right way. They are not demanding that we just say "fuck off" to the constitution, they are saying birth right citizenship is dumb so let's legally amend the constitution to do away with it. Such a constitutional amendment might, or might not pass.

You hoplophobes are saying, "dude, the constitution is old and nobody understands what those white slave owners wrote cause they spoke, like, a different language back then and guns are scary so, dude, the guns gotta go, constitution be damned". You anti-gun types should take a cue from the anti-birth-right types and work to amend the constitution to revoke 2A.

In summary, it is legal and ethical to amend the constitution. It is illegal and unethical to ignore and violate the constitution.

Incidentally, the article you linked to is two years old. The movement to amend the 14th apparently foundered.
 
FlyLikeAnEagle

FlyLikeAnEagle

Well-Known Member
desert dude said:
What's funny to me is that you don't see the irony in your own post. Whatever your opinion on birth right citizenship, the Republicans, proposing a constitutional amendment are doing things the right way. They are not demanding that we just say "fuck off" to the constitution, they are saying birth right citizenship is dumb so let's legally amend the constitution to do away with it. Such a constitutional amendment might, or might not pass.

You hoplophobes are saying, "dude, the constitution is old and nobody understands what those white slave owners wrote cause they spoke, like, a different language back then and guns are scary so, dude, the guns gotta go, constitution be damned". You anti-gun types should take a cue from the anti-birth-right types and work to amend the constitution to revoke 2A.

In summary, it is legal and ethical to amend the constitution. It is illegal and unethical to ignore and violate the constitution.

Incidentally, the article you linked to is two years old. The movement to amend the 14th apparently foundered.
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Did you learn this in the same class that you learned about tax returns in?
 
st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
desert dude said:
What you is true. Many would knuckle under, and that might be the end of the insurrection. However, your scenario has also been true for every insurrection throughout history, and as we know, a fair number of insurrections have been successful. Look at the middle east as we speak. Syrian rebels are being slaughtered but it looks like they are going to win against Assad. Libyan rebels defeated the standing army of Libya. American colonists defeated the world's super power in America's war of Independence.

What you are saying is that we have to abandon all hope because the task of defeating a government gone bad is utterly impossible. It is the slave mentality. Just roll over and accept it. History has shown repeatedly that you are simply wrong.

Every US military officer takes an oath to uphold and defend the constitution. If the US government goes rogue, some of those officers are going to abide by their oath and the US military is going to fracture. If a legitimate insurrection arises I think it would have very good chance at success, the key word here is "legitimate" though.

I am not saying, nor do I believe, that the US is anywhere close to a revolution. The US is polarized but we can work out our differences peacefully, I think.

There has been at least one plot to overthrow the US government: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot. It failed because it was a simple power grab and was illegitimate. Supposedly George H W Bush's father was one of the key plotters, so all of you Bush haters ought to embrace the story.
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You can't compare Syria with the United States.

People in Syria live in a 3'rd world shit-hole. They have been brutally oppressed for decades, and are for the most part hopeless people, with nothing to lose. They are truly willing to die for their freedom.

Americans on the other hand are fat, lazy, and complacent. We all have a roof over our heads, food on our table (lots of it), a cell phone in our pocket, and a delusion that we'll all be rich some day. There isn't enough gumption in the 300+ million people here to defeat an army of GI Joe's let alone the full force of the American military.

As Beefbisquit pointed out .... justifying gun ownership for personal protection is both valid, and reasonable. Justifying gun ownership so that you can overthrow the American government (and the military) is laughable.
 
desert dude

desert dude

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
You can't compare Syria with the United States.

People in Syria live in a 3'rd world shit-hole. They have been brutally oppressed for decades, and are for the most part hopeless people, with nothing to lose. They are truly willing to die for their freedom.

Americans on the other hand are fat, lazy, and complacent. We all have a roof over our heads, food on our table (lots of it), a cell phone in our pocket, and a delusion that we'll all be rich some day. There isn't enough gumption in the 300+ million people here to defeat an army of GI Joe's let alone the full force of the American military.

As Beefbisquit pointed out .... justifying gun ownership for personal protection is both valid, and reasonable. Justifying gun ownership so that you can overthrow the American government (and the military) is laughable.
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I am not justifying gun ownership, I am pointing out the reason 2A was included in the bill of rights.
 
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