Impossible! The deficit is falling as well as unemployment Obama wrecking economy

[cannabineer]

"Please go to funnyjunk to view this image". Hotlink blocked? cn

 

[Dr Kynes]

I didn't mean to ignore it, but the claim is obviously false. The home ownership rate in 1913 was very low; indeed, the creation of the Federal Reserve System is what enabled many people to buy homes at all (when they previously could not get a loan from anyone else). Kynes doesn't want to tell you this as he's recounting his fanciful vision of life in 1913.

fanciful? farm work hasnt changed since 1913 and thats what i was raised to do, how i was brought up. my grandfather didnt buy a TV until the mid 80's because he didnt have the time or the inclination to watch the idiot box, when i stayed with him over the summers we read, we talked, we went to bars, shot pool, repaired tools and tack, and cleaned our guns and fishing reels after the sun went down.

i LIVED the 1913 lifestyle every summer till he died. it's actually not so bad, and the best part is, your specious claim ignores the fact that all the wonderful things technology has brought to our lives MUST BE PAID FOR FROM OUR STAGNANT WAGES AND EVER-SHRIVELLING DOLLARS. the fiat currency system doesnt GIVE anyone shit, it TAKES shit. if i borrow from aa bank to buy my farm i dont just have to pay the bank back, i have to pay the bank back PLUS put a profit on top, for the privilege of borrowingg somebody else's money, which the bank doesnt even have in the first place! the bank TAKES it does not give. even a fool should be able to understand that.

I don't think California is a good example for you to use, since it's one of the most expensive places to live in the country now versus being a backwater in the past. There's still plenty of cheap land to be had all over this country. Average land prices would show a much smaller effect. People who are priced out of California shouldn't live there (and indeed, they're going in droves to other states).

of course california is a bad example.

lets try this?
http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G404


aww see land cost the same now as it did in 1913.

and i tell you now, their estimate is LOOOOOOW, in my searches i find good farm land costs between $1800 and $3000/acre, and even more if you have water rights in oklahoma, where they show values in the 1500/acre range

 

[Dr Kynes]

"Please go to funnyjunk to view this image". Hotlink blocked? cn

it looked like it worked to me, but i was reading it from cache

should be fixed now.

 

[cannabineer]

it looked like it worked to me, but i was reading it from cache

should be fixed now.

I figured it was something like that. He was our second-worst export. cn

 

[twostrokenut]

Not leaving till the morning lol.

What about the Civil War?

Already been covered......search greenbacks in this thread....

I take issue with comparing a 1913 house and car to 2013 equivalents. I already discussed the differences in a house, so how about the car. The 2013 car is far larger, far safer, far more comfortable, carries substantially more, has more mechanical power, etc. That a Ford sold in 1913 for less than a modern car really doesn't mean very much when you consider this.

The minute details don't matter. Yes we have mp3 players in our cars and auto sprinklers in our homes today....we also have robots building them.....How many man hours did it take to produce a model T or a 1500 sq ft home vs how many man hours it now takes to produce a ford Edge or the same 1500 sqft home, fancy pcv pipes double pane windows and all??? It's less today which means those things should cost less today....like HD televisions do.....Supply and Demand aren't Austrian terms or Keynesian terms...they are universal economic law.....Austrians tend to let them work themselves out because this ensures everyone is free.....to succeed and fail..... Keynesians pretend that manipulating supply and demand artificially and by means only they claim to understand, somehow is better, which its not, as evidenced by our current economy..

..But alas there's a lot of rules, regulations, cpi's and such in between supply and demand put there by those that know better than us....and they know better than us simply because they told us so, but its for our own good and it's going to help.....till it doesn't...then they will stand there saying "idk what happened" while holding title to all the shit that once was yours.

If you think you have it bad compared to someone pre-1913, I think you're probably just ignorant of how much life sucked in 1913. It wasn't paradise, it was a dirty and smelly world where people had to work more hours for less pay, relatively, often in dangerous conditions.

I didn't say I have it bad compared to 1913....I simply said in 1913 you kept 100% of your paycheck.........I'm not ignorant of how much life sucked then or now.....lol dirty smelly world ever grown a guerrilla garden? Maybe your 1913 city where yall were shitting in the streets were dirty and smelly but lots of ppl then simply built their own houses, grew their own food, and still had plenty of time to whittle wood....despite having an outhouse, the flowers made it smell awesome.

 

[bwest]

I bet that $14 an hour comes in handy when you need to pay the $2,000 a month rent and purchase food at outrageous prices.

Maybe a man camp is in your future?

What is there to do in North Dakota anyway? That has to be one of the largest shithole states to ever exist.

Obviously don't know anything about north dakota. I don't know why you think food is more expensive, and they are building like crazy. Rent prices will go down, and those prices are only in the oilfield towns.Yep, clean air, clean water, abundant outdoors, real shit hole state. I live in the country in a two living room, two bath, three bedroom house built in 1992 on 10 acres, and I pay 300 a month. Long way from 2000.
Thats why it's good to actually know what you're talking about before you open your hole.

 

[bwest]

fanciful? farm work hasnt changed since 1913 and thats what i was raised to do, how i was brought up. my grandfather didnt buy a TV until the mid 80's because he didnt have the time or the inclination to watch the idiot box, when i stayed with him over the summers we read, we talked, we went to bars, shot pool, repaired tools and tack, and cleaned our guns and fishing reels after the sun went down.

i LIVED the 1913 lifestyle every summer till he died. it's actually not so bad, and the best part is, your specious claim ignores the fact that all the wonderful things technology has brought to our lives MUST BE PAID FOR FROM OUR STAGNANT WAGES AND EVER-SHRIVELLING DOLLARS. the fiat currency system doesnt GIVE anyone shit, it TAKES shit. if i borrow from aa bank to buy my farm i dont just have to pay the bank back, i have to pay the bank back PLUS put a profit on top, for the privilege of borrowingg somebody else's money, which the bank doesnt even have in the first place! the bank TAKES it does not give. even a fool should be able to understand that.



of course california is a bad example.

lets try this?
http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G404


aww see land cost the same now as it did in 1913.

and i tell you now, their estimate is LOOOOOOW, in my searches i find good farm land costs between $1800 and $3000/acre, and even more if you have water rights in oklahoma, where they show values in the 1500/acre range

Farm work hasn't changed since 1913? I can seed 250 acres a day and my tractor drives itself. Something tells me, it may have changed a bit since 1913.

 

[tokeprep]

so, the great depression didnt teach that generation anything, particularly the ones financially ruined when their banks gambled with their "savings" in the casino of wall street.

those of us who's grandparents were CRUSHED by the financial gamblers you seem to adore, saved. they saved and saved and saved, and many no longer trusted your beloved fractional reserve system of the federal reserves promises, sio they kept their savings in whatever means they felt safe with.

my grandfather trusted LAND SILVER and GOLD and it served him well until the tax man came to the door after he died.

I don't care about what investments people want to make. That's why any debate about currency is really irrelevant, since anyone can trade their currency in for metals if that's what they desire. Of course, the return on financial assets after the Great Depression far exceeded the return on precious metals, so your grandfather evidently lost out.

maybe you think my grandfather worked his whole life so the tax man could reclaim his rightful spoils, maybe you really do believe He Didnt Build That, or maybe you have hitched your wagon to the stone that is the fiat currency, and cannot bear the idea that your economics degree will become obsolete if the system finally changes, to become a more modern and robust currency than the gossamer promises of politicians can support

i dont really care which it is.

I don't have an economics degree and don't work in economics. I have absolutely no ideological or practical investment in the debate whatsoever. My sole interest is in truth, which can only be reached with fact. If the Austrians had facts on their side supporting their case, I would be there too. Alas, they don't, as every single one of these discussions has demonstrated.

I think there actually is an argument to be had about fiat currency, but we've never had it in this forum. All of you are usually too busy trotting out the same misleading information or outright myths ("The dollar has lost 95% of its purchasing power since 1913", "The government's inflation numbers don't include food or energy," "A given amount of silver has bought almost exactly the same amount of goods for thousands of years") to even get there.

your support for the system which is destroying america's agriculture system, ruining rural folks and impoverishing entire communities to enrich the few fat cats in the Money Trust who make the rules to satisfy their own desires for more of everything is despicable.

teddy roosevelt is turning over in his grave

Meaningless and empty assertion.

 

[tokeprep]

nah, youre just not catching tokeprep's attention and rustling his jimmies.

his unshakable faith in the status quo requires a target he feels he can destroy with a simple wave of his hand. thats why he is focussing on silver and whether or not inflation is occuring he has the entire US treasury department in his corner and 100 years of bullshit to back up his claims, the fact that those 100 years' data counters his claims doesnt dissuade him from restating ben bernannke's position or wheeling out the festering corpse of alan greenspan to mumble a few lines of Jabberwocky and send the stock market into a freefall or a buying frenzy depending on how he uses the inflection on his Vorpal sword's "Snicker Snack"

tokeprep has engaged his full faith-based certainty that JP Morgan, the Rothschilds, the Warburgs and William Randolph Hearst have our best interests at heart and he MUST defend their honour!

100 years of data counters my claims? What data are you talking about?

 

[tokeprep]

fanciful? farm work hasnt changed since 1913 and thats what i was raised to do, how i was brought up. my grandfather didnt buy a TV until the mid 80's because he didnt have the time or the inclination to watch the idiot box, when i stayed with him over the summers we read, we talked, we went to bars, shot pool, repaired tools and tack, and cleaned our guns and fishing reels after the sun went down.

i LIVED the 1913 lifestyle every summer till he died.

Now tell me, how many Americans are employed in farming today versus in 2013? You just made my point for me: we make a lot more money even though we don't work nearly as hard.

it's actually not so bad, and the best part is, your specious claim ignores the fact that all the wonderful things technology has brought to our lives MUST BE PAID FOR FROM OUR STAGNANT WAGES AND EVER-SHRIVELLING DOLLARS. the fiat currency system doesnt GIVE anyone shit, it TAKES shit. if i borrow from aa bank to buy my farm i dont just have to pay the bank back, i have to pay the bank back PLUS put a profit on top, for the privilege of borrowingg somebody else's money, which the bank doesnt even have in the first place! the bank TAKES it does not give. even a fool should be able to understand that.

I don't understand how you can keep repeating this with a straight face. We worked out the math multiple times and you were always wrong in every single assertion you made about purchasing power. Why can none of you support your claims with some math? Because they're wrong.

of course california is a bad example.

lets try this?
http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G404


aww see land cost the same now as it did in 1913.

and i tell you now, their estimate is LOOOOOOW, in my searches i find good farm land costs between $1800 and $3000/acre, and even more if you have water rights in oklahoma, where they show values in the 1500/acre range

The 1913 average price is equivalent to about $1,000 in 2013, which would mean a real increase of about 260%. The population of the United States was about 100 million people in 1913, so the price of farmland looks to have approximately tracked population growth. Makes sense.

I don't think it's an inflation issue. Whether we had fiat currency or a gold/silver standard, land should be relatively more expensive with 300 million+ people occupying exactly the same space that 100 million people used to occupy.

 

[tokeprep]

Already been covered......search greenbacks in this thread....

The claim was that the only price fluctuations were due to the Banks of the United States, but the largest price fluctuations occurred during the Civil War. I searched that term in the thread but got no results.

The minute details don't matter. Yes we have mp3 players in our cars and auto sprinklers in our homes today....we also have robots building them.....How many man hours did it take to produce a model T or a 1500 sq ft home vs how many man hours it now takes to produce a ford Edge or the same 1500 sqft home, fancy pcv pipes double pane windows and all??? It's less today which means those things should cost less today....like HD televisions do.....Supply and Demand aren't Austrian terms or Keynesian terms...they are universal economic law.....Austrians tend to let them work themselves out because this ensures everyone is free.....to succeed and fail..... Keynesians pretend that manipulating supply and demand artificially and by means only they claim to understand, somehow is better, which its not, as evidenced by our current economy..

Of course those details matter. Doesn't an audio system cost money? Don't larger, more comfortable seats cost money? Doesn't an air conditioner cost money? Doesn't a bigger car require more materials to build? Isn't a bigger engine more expensive than a smaller one? The same is true for a house! Your focus on man hours makes no sense. If we drove cars that were actually similar to Model Ts, they'd be a lot cheaper. Go study a picture of a Model T right now and try to tell me otherwise (consider that it weighed 1,200 pounds, whereas a modern car weighs 4,000 pounds--there's substantially more material in the car).

Things shouldn't cost less just because we have more of them. In 1913, most of the world's population was impoverished, enabling a couple hundred million people in countries like the United States to use all of the resources that existed in the world. Today, there are several billion people using the same amount of resources. You should expect that those resources are going to be more expensive, relatively, even though supplies increased, because demand outpaced those supply increases.

See China driving up the cost of building materials. We're paying more than we used to in order to put buildings up, but that's not a matter of inflation. There's only so much iron in the world, and only so much steel fabrication capacity, until we build more.

General Caveat on Commodity Prices: For the past 10 years, commodity prices skyrocketed as hundreds of millions of people in countries like India and China suddenly became well-to-do for the first time in the world's history. I think this was the real driver of gold prices, for example: China and India were importing vast amounts of gold for domestic consumption (generally not as an investment, as people in this forum will try to tell you--in India most of the demand is for jewelry). Everyone here thinks the recent crash in gold prices was due to paper manipulation, but there may be a significantly better explanation: the Indian government has begun implementing all kinds of measures to try to restrict gold imports (draining tens of billions of dollars out of the country every year to buy gold to make jewelry is hurting domestic investment), and India is one of the largest buyers in the market. What happens when you lose a huge buyer? The price goes down.

Anyway, the general sentiment in the investment community, including among people who have played commodities for the last ten years, is that this cycle is coming to an end now that the world has adjusted. Trillions of dollars have been invested over this period in obtaining new commodity supplies, and since it takes a very long time to build a mine/whatever and all the infrastructure you need to transport stuff out of it, many of these projects are just starting to come online. In a few years, we'll see where things stand.

..But alas there's a lot of rules, regulations, cpi's and such in between supply and demand put there by those that know better than us....and they know better than us simply because they told us so, but its for our own good and it's going to help.....till it doesn't...then they will stand there saying "idk what happened" while holding title to all the shit that once was yours.

People have been saying the system would collapse ever since it was created. Instead, we have the modern world.

I didn't say I have it bad compared to 1913....I simply said in 1913 you kept 100% of your paycheck.........I'm not ignorant of how much life sucked then or now.....lol dirty smelly world ever grown a guerrilla garden? Maybe your 1913 city where yall were shitting in the streets were dirty and smelly but lots of ppl then simply built their own houses, grew their own food, and still had plenty of time to whittle wood....despite having an outhouse, the flowers made it smell awesome.

Anyone who wants to exist that way today can do so. But no one wants to exist that way.

 

[Harrekin]

The claim was that the only price fluctuations were due to the Banks of the United States, but the largest price fluctuations occurred during the Civil War. I searched that term in the thread but got no results.



Of course those details matter. Doesn't an audio system cost money? Don't larger, more comfortable seats cost money? Doesn't an air conditioner cost money? Doesn't a bigger car require more materials to build? Isn't a bigger engine more expensive than a smaller one? The same is true for a house! Your focus on man hours makes no sense. If we drove cars that were actually similar to Model Ts, they'd be a lot cheaper. Go study a picture of a Model T right now and try to tell me otherwise (consider that it weighed 1,200 pounds, whereas a modern car weighs 4,000 pounds--there's substantially more material in the car).

Things shouldn't cost less just because we have more of them. In 1913, most of the world's population was impoverished, enabling a couple hundred million people in countries like the United States to use all of the resources that existed in the world. Today, there are several billion people using the same amount of resources. You should expect that those resources are going to be more expensive, relatively, even though supplies increased, because demand outpaced those supply increases.

See China driving up the cost of building materials. We're paying more than we used to in order to put buildings up, but that's not a matter of inflation. There's only so much iron in the world, and only so much steel fabrication capacity, until we build more.

General Caveat on Commodity Prices: For the past 10 years, commodity prices skyrocketed as hundreds of millions of people in countries like India and China suddenly became well-to-do for the first time in the world's history. I think this was the real driver of gold prices, for example: China and India were importing vast amounts of gold for domestic consumption (generally not as an investment, as people in this forum will try to tell you--in India most of the demand is for jewelry). Everyone here thinks the recent crash in gold prices was due to paper manipulation, but there may be a significantly better explanation: the Indian government has begun implementing all kinds of measures to try to restrict gold imports (draining tens of billions of dollars out of the country every year to buy gold to make jewelry is hurting domestic investment), and India is one of the largest buyers in the market. What happens when you lose a huge buyer? The price goes down.

Anyway, the general sentiment in the investment community, including among people who have played commodities for the last ten years, is that this cycle is coming to an end now that the world has adjusted. Trillions of dollars have been invested over this period in obtaining new commodity supplies, and since it takes a very long time to build a mine/whatever and all the infrastructure you need to transport stuff out of it, many of these projects are just starting to come online. In a few years, we'll see where things stand.



People have been saying the system would collapse ever since it was created. Instead, we have the modern world.



Anyone who wants to exist that way today can do so. But no one wants to exist that way.

Yeah, cos you can just start a new mine whereever you want.

Metals arnt finite resources or anything...

 

[tokeprep]

Farm work hasn't changed since 1913? I can seed 250 acres a day and my tractor drives itself. Something tells me, it may have changed a bit since 1913.

Did huge harvesting machines exist in 1913? You or Kynes might know. I live in a state with a lot of farms, and I see these huge things rolling through the fields everywhere. I'm not even sure they're all human operated--I've heard that you can run them on GPS coordinates.

 

[tokeprep]

Yeah, cos you can just start a new mine whereever you want.

Metals arnt finite resources or anything...

Are you really going to say that Rio Tinto, BHP Billiton, Glencore, Vale, and dozens of other companies haven't been investing vast fortunes into building new commodity capacity...? Anyone here from Australia?

 

[Harrekin]

Are you really going to say that Rio Tinto, BHP Billiton, Glencore, Vale, and dozens of other companies haven't been investing vast fortunes into building new commodity capacity...? Anyone here from Australia?

You don't seem to understand, the rate at which it's extracted isn't important, it's finite and it'll eventually appreciate and the people holding physicals then will be sitting on a fortune.

You're like a person in the late 1800's who thought sitting on top of an oil-field was an inconvenience...

 

[tokeprep]

You don't seem to understand, the rate at which it's extracted isn't important, it's finite and it'll eventually appreciate and the people holding physicals then will be sitting on a fortune.

You're like a person in the late 1800's who thought sitting on top of an oil-field was an inconvenience...

Eventually. My post said nothing about "eventually," it talked about what happened over the past 10 years and expectations for the near future. Markets reflect present supply and demand, not eventuality.

We'll all have long been dead before the world's finite resources run out, so that should be irrelevant to us.

 

[Harrekin]

Eventually. My post said nothing about "eventually," it talked about what happened over the past 10 years and expectations for the near future. Markets reflect present supply and demand, not eventuality.

We'll all have long been dead before the world's finite resources run out, so that should be irrelevant to us.

Cockdribble, you're not worth the hassle.

Enjoy your paper money.

 

[tokeprep]

Cockdribble, you're not worth the hassle.

Enjoy your paper money.

Enjoy the commodity prices you'll never see since you'll be dead.

 

[Mr Neutron]

Interest paid to the Federal Reserve? I can tell you it hasn't been very much historically. Since the Fed went on its trillion plus spending spree, they've been returning quite substantial sums to the treasury: $88.9 billion in 2012. The Federal Reserve has no profits. They're the federal government's profits.

Until the Fed has a thorough audit, how can we know? I didn't know the US federal government was a "for profit" organization. Where's my share?

What's wrong with the inflation numbers? Be specific.

The Fed prefers using core inflation numbers. Others use CPI, PCE, trimmed mean PCE, median CPI, median PCE or if the numbers don't show the preferred results, another formula will be manufactured that will.
Using the governments numbers to reveal the fraud is like asking the burglar to submit a manifest of what he stole.

How big does a fluctuation have to be to be "huge"? Because I can certainly show you some that are pre-fiat dollar.

IDK, how about more than 10%?

 

[ChesusRice]

Until the Fed has a thorough audit, how can we know? I didn't know the US federal government was a "for profit" organization. Where's my share?

You live in Mexico.
You get 900 a month income which means you pay zero taxes
In other words you dont contribute shit to the USA

What do you think your "share" is worth?