Gold. GOLD!!!!! Gooooollllllllllddddddd!!!!!!!!

[NoDrama]

Except that your dollars both have purchasing power. In 1913, an average worker earned the equivalent of under $18,000 in purchasing power. Today, an average worker earns something like $27,000 in purchasing power. Just as people paid rent and bought food with their 1913 dollars, I do exactly the same thing with mine. And I get more than they did for hundreds of hours less work in substantially safer, easier working conditions. You can whine all you want, but reality is reality.

You cannot bitch about inflation destroying the dollar when an average worker only earned $750 in 1913. Even a minimum wage worker makes more than that in a single month today (and for less work). If your theories were correct, life would be far worse today than it was in 1913. Obviously that assertion is laughable.

I can bitch about inflation all I want. Inflation has destroyed the dollar, misallocated valuable resources, and caused huge malinvestment that will destroy economies.

Gold always had that special place because it DEMANDED discipline in spending. You could not go to war without it, you could not run a government without it. Now we can just print the money and everyone will take it in the ass through devalued dollars that outpaces raises you get at work.

You keep trying to compare rubles to dollars and telling us that the ruble inflation didn't have much effect due to the dollar being able to still purchase stuff. Dishwashers I say!! Bolivars are the way to go, inflation proof!!!

Comparing 1913 dollars to 2013 dollars is comparing dishwashers to pigs feet and saying they both wash dishes the same way.

 

[NoDrama]

The experts are forecasting 1100 an ounce. That isnt so bad. Even if it went into freefall It would still recover some.
Stocks are better investments right now and that is why investors are getting out of gold

Who are these "Experts" you put your faith in? Are these people you saw on Television?

 

[echelon1k1]

Did someone say expert? I hope this is not lost on anyone...

 

[tokeprep]

I can bitch about inflation all I want. Inflation has destroyed the dollar, misallocated valuable resources, and caused huge malinvestment that will destroy economies.

Gold always had that special place because it DEMANDED discipline in spending. You could not go to war without it, you could not run a government without it. Now we can just print the money and everyone will take it in the ass through devalued dollars that outpaces raises you get at work.

You keep trying to compare rubles to dollars and telling us that the ruble inflation didn't have much effect due to the dollar being able to still purchase stuff. Dishwashers I say!! Bolivars are the way to go, inflation proof!!!

Comparing 1913 dollars to 2013 dollars is comparing dishwashers to pigs feet and saying they both wash dishes the same way.

When you can't win on numbers, just keep repeating the same old, tired, meaningless lines over, and over, and over again.

You can tell me my dollar has no value all you like, but I'm sitting in a comfortable apartment paid for in dollars, with a kitchen full of food paid for in dollars, typing this message on a computer paid for in dollars, and using internet service paid for in dollars. Evidently it does have value, or I would have nothing.

 

[tokeprep]

Did someone say expert? I hope this is not lost on anyone...

View attachment 2661519

Just for NoDrama: that 1913 pizza is smaller than the 2013 pizza no matter how you want to slice it. That is the mathematical fact you cannot deny.

 

[NoDrama]

Just for NoDrama: that 1913 pizza is smaller than the 2013 pizza no matter how you want to slice it. That is the mathematical fact you cannot deny.

Just for tokeNprepforbankruptcy:

Why would you quote someone else in reference to me? Do you not know who you are talking to?

You are the same person who just recently said that you could do quite well by buying a CD if you wanted to invest and reap the rewards.

With investment advice like that I imagine you will always live in an apartment.

 

[tokeprep]

Just for tokeNprepforbankruptcy:

Why would you quote someone else in reference to me? Do you not know who you are talking to?

You are the same person who just recently said that you could do quite well by buying a CD if you wanted to invest and reap the rewards.

With investment advice like that I imagine you will always live in an apartment.

Because I made it relate to precisely what we just discussed.

And that's actually not what I said, but it's interesting that you remember it that way.

 

[NoDrama]

The inflation rate is very easy to beat. You can do it with a CD, stocks, bonds, dividends, physical assets--and that's exactly what people do.

Average US Stock market Returns over the last 10 Years: 7.2%

Average US Currency Devaluation over the last 10 Years: 27.93%

Average Price increase of Gold over the last 10 years: 428%

Average US T-Bill Bond Return over the last 10 years: 8.2%

Average Corporate bond yield over the last 10 years: 7.9%

Combined cumulative inflation rate since inception of the Fed: 2,195%

Average annual yield of top dividend yielding companies: 2.65%

Yep, looks like you said a mouthful.

Edit: Average long term CD rate of return the last 10 years: 2.8%

Edit 2: 10% YoY returns are totally possible over a 25 year period.

I bet you didn't say that either did you?

I laughed at that little tidbit for 2 days.

 

[tokeprep]

First, this is what you said I said: "You are the same person who just recently said that you could do quite well by buying a CD if you wanted to invest and reap the rewards." As you just showed us, this is what I actually said: "The inflation rate is very easy to beat. You can do it with a CD, stocks, bonds, dividends, physical assets--and that's exactly what people do."

I never said CDs were rock star investments, I said you could beat inflation with them. Your numbers wholeheartedly agree with me.

Average US Stock market Returns over the last 10 Years: 7.2%

How do you get 7.2% over the last 10 years? The return on the S&P 500 over 10 years is above 50%.

Edit: Unless you meant the average annualized return is that, but that wouldn't make your point, so I'm presuming not.

Average Corporate bond yield over the last 10 years: 7.9%

Likewise, where did you get this one? Corporate bonds have returned an average yield of more than 5% a year over the last 10 years, or more than 50%.

Edit: Same note as above.

Average annual yield of top dividend yielding companies: 2.65%

I actually didn't say anything about averages, I said it was possible to beat inflation with dividends. We both know there are lots of stable companies that pay much larger dividends (AT&T, Altria, and AEP to start alphabetically). If you owned a basket of stocks with high dividend yields, you would have beaten inflation.

Nonetheless, a 26.5% return over 10 years comes very close to that 28% inflation rate.

Edit: I realized this is flawed because it doesn't consider capital gains on the stock. When you buy stocks for yield, you not only get the yield, you have 10 years worth of price appreciation. Since the S&P 500 was up more than 50% over 10 years, this appreciation would potentially be substantial (depending on the specific stocks). But my original point was that you could easily find large, stable companies with dividend yields exceeding inflation.

Edit: Average long term CD rate of return the last 10 years: 2.8%

This one just validates my point. You said the devaluation was 28%; the average yield on a CD was also 28%.

Edit 2: 10% YoY returns are totally possible over a 25 year period.

I bet you didn't say that either did you?

I laughed at that little tidbit for 2 days.

Obviously not. I used a 10% annual return to account for the fact that the market might be up 50% one year, down 20% another year, up 20% one year, then down 10% another year. You're obviously familiar with this concept of average annualized return since you just posted a huge slate of calculations that reflect exactly the same principle.

 

[cannabineer]

When you can't win on numbers, just keep repeating the same old, tired, meaningless lines over, and over, and over again.

You can tell me my dollar has no value all you like, but I'm sitting in a comfortable apartment paid for in dollars, with a kitchen full of food paid for in dollars, typing this message on a computer paid for in dollars, and using internet service paid for in dollars. Evidently it does have value, or I would have nothing.

Maybe you're both right. At this time, our money buys real stuff. There might be real merit to the idea that it has become a Ponzi scheme. If it collapses, only the extremely agile (and unrelentingly vigilant) and those with inside forewarning will be in a position to salvage some value. The bears (uh HUhhuhuhuh) will be in gold already, safe against collapse but also cut off from the awesome wealth engine that marks the latter stages of a bubble ...
My retirement is entirely in securities right now. I'm beginning to feel insecure (and I freely admit this is a matter of feeling, of hunch like every gamble) and will explore ways to armor some of my assets. This reduces their speed and range but hardens them against inconvenient artillery. cn

 

[heckler73]

Maybe you're both right. At this time, our money buys real stuff. There might be real merit to the idea that it has become a Ponzi scheme. If it collapses, only the extremely agile (and unrelentingly vigilant) and those with inside forewarning will be in a position to salvage some value.

I fail to see that merit. Can you elaborate a little more?

Mike Norman's most recent vid on the US Dollar is quite succinct in questioning a couple of the myths which Doom'n'Gloomers keep promulgating.

[video=youtube;QPmIhYuRhbE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPmIhYuRhbE[/video]

 

[Balzac89]

Why burn resources digging up gold when we can print it?

This guy ignores basic supply and demand. Either the Fed is magical or at some point there will be a huge correction.

 

[NoDrama]

First, this is what you said I said: "You are the same person who just recently said that you could do quite well by buying a CD if you wanted to invest and reap the rewards." As you just showed us, this is what I actually said: "The inflation rate is very easy to beat. You can do it with a CD, stocks, bonds, dividends, physical assets--and that's exactly what people do."

I never said CDs were rock star investments, I said you could beat inflation with them. Your numbers wholeheartedly agree with me.



How do you get 7.2% over the last 10 years? The return on the S&P 500 over 10 years is above 50%.

Edit: Unless you meant the average annualized return is that, but that wouldn't make your point, so I'm presuming not.



Likewise, where did you get this one? Corporate bonds have returned an average yield of more than 5% a year over the last 10 years, or more than 50%.

Edit: Same note as above.



I actually didn't say anything about averages, I said it was possible to beat inflation with dividends. We both know there are lots of stable companies that pay much larger dividends (AT&T, Altria, and AEP to start alphabetically). If you owned a basket of stocks with high dividend yields, you would have beaten inflation.

Nonetheless, a 26.5% return over 10 years comes very close to that 28% inflation rate.

Edit: I realized this is flawed because it doesn't consider capital gains on the stock. When you buy stocks for yield, you not only get the yield, you have 10 years worth of price appreciation. Since the S&P 500 was up more than 50% over 10 years, this appreciation would potentially be substantial (depending on the specific stocks). But my original point was that you could easily find large, stable companies with dividend yields exceeding inflation.



This one just validates my point. You said the devaluation was 28%; the average yield on a CD was also 28%.



Obviously not. I used a 10% annual return to account for the fact that the market might be up 50% one year, down 20% another year, up 20% one year, then down 10% another year. You're obviously familiar with this concept of average annualized return since you just posted a huge slate of calculations that reflect exactly the same principle.

Do you have to pay taxes on Equities that you sell and realize a gain on?

Why?

I don't suppose ANY of your investment advice has to do with picking the correct stocks does it?

Perhaps you think you can just invest in any stock at all and you will be guaranteed a return?

Enron was an Awesome stock to own, I had a bunch of it and could have made quite a pretty penny, but the stock just kept going up so I was afraid to sell and lose out on the profits. Then one day I woke up and the stock was worth nothing.

Have any idea how many people on TV and in Academia were touting Enron stock? Everyone.

So, which stocks would you purchase and hold for the next 10 years? Give us some advice so we can see just how good an investor you really are. Bad performance will prove you don't know what you are talking about, while good performance will vindicate your position.

If you invested in the Stocks (Perfect picks) in 2003, you lost 60% in 2008-2009, the gain realized today on those stocks = a grand total of 7.2% gain

Most people have just made back the same $ value they had 5 years ago, somehow you presume that the 2008 crisis never happened.

 

[tokeprep]

Do you have to pay taxes on Equities that you sell and realize a gain on?

Aren't you paying taxes on those precious metal gains? If I recall correctly, you seemed to imply in the past that you didn't owe taxes on them because 1099s don't have to be filed. Obviously that's false--if you buy an asset and sell it for more than what it's worth, it's taxable income whether you report it or not.

If you aren't paying the legally obligated tax, I don't see why we should assume our investor is paying it either.

Why?

I don't suppose ANY of your investment advice has to do with picking the correct stocks does it?

Perhaps you think you can just invest in any stock at all and you will be guaranteed a return?

Enron was an Awesome stock to own, I had a bunch of it and could have made quite a pretty penny, but the stock just kept going up so I was afraid to sell and lose out on the profits. Then one day I woke up and the stock was worth nothing.

Have any idea how many people on TV and in Academia were touting Enron stock? Everyone.

That's why we didn't talk about the return of any individual stock. I used the S&P 500, which anyone can easily own with an index fund. No stock picking needed.

So, which stocks would you purchase and hold for the next 10 years? Give us some advice so we can see just how good an investor you really are. Bad performance will prove you don't know what you are talking about, while good performance will vindicate your position.

If you invested in the Stocks (Perfect picks) in 2003, you lost 60% in 2008-2009, the gain realized today on those stocks = a grand total of 7.2% gain

Most people have just made back the same $ value they had 5 years ago, somehow you presume that the 2008 crisis never happened.

The assumptions you're using to get there make no sense. If you had purchased and held stocks for 10 years, the paper yearly gains and losses actually meant nothing. In calculating return, all that matters is the value today and the value originally invested. That gives you a very real gain of more like 72%, not 7.2%, as of today, which you would realize by liquidating the investment. 2008 didn't cost anything if you held everything you owned (unless you were directly invested in a company that went under, but diversified holdings or an index fund would have minimized any loss).

I would never propose that average individual investors try to engage in individual stock picking. They're too ignorant and stupid to succeed there. I wouldn't even suggest mutual funds, given the fees; index funds are probably the best option for that kind of investor. And historically, an index fund has substantially beaten inflation, on an annualized average return basis, which is the real basis, so it's a perfectly legitimate option with a proven record of building wealth over time.

 

[Balzac89]

If you stay under the threshold limits you do not have to report it.

[video=youtube;qjtPSDTcy4E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjtPSDTcy4E[/video]

 

[Balzac89]

Silver and gold just took another hit when the asian market opened

 

[Balzac89]

Silver about a dollar and Gold about 20 dollars an oz

 

[tokeprep]

If you stay under the threshold limits you do not have to report it.

[video=youtube;qjtPSDTcy4E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjtPSDTcy4E[/video]

You don't legally have to report the transaction on an IRS form. You are legally obligated to report your income from whatever source. The fact that you're evading taxes shouldn't get credit in discussing returns.

 

[NoDrama]

Aren't you paying taxes on those precious metal gains? If I recall correctly, you seemed to imply in the past that you didn't owe taxes on them because 1099s don't have to be filed. Obviously that's false--if you buy an asset and sell it for more than what it's worth, it's taxable income whether you report it or not.

If you aren't paying the legally obligated tax, I don't see why we should assume our investor is paying it either.

All stock market transaction are reported to the IRS. Even if you only purchased a single penny stock for 1 penny. Anyone who has ACTUALLY done any investing would know this. Anyone who has ACTUALLY invested in the markets would know what a 1098 form is.

I assume that if you sell a dime bag you are reporting it to the IRS and paying taxes on your gain?

I didn't think so, you are evading taxes aren't you?

 

[tokeprep]

All stock market transaction are reported to the IRS. Even if you only purchased a single penny stock for 1 penny. Anyone who has ACTUALLY done any investing would know this. Anyone who has ACTUALLY invested in the markets would know what a 1098 form is.

I realize that. The fact that it would be unwise to evade your taxes doesn't mean that it's otherwise not illegal.

My capital gain/loss section must have been 20 pages long.

I assume that if you sell a dime bag you are reporting it to the IRS and paying taxes on your gain?

I didn't think so, you are evading taxes aren't you?

I don't sell drugs. I do report my income; I usually don't owe any income tax, just self-employment tax, which is a bitch--I wrote the IRS a big check in April.