Freedom of Religion - Freedom of Hate

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
Hadith's writings aren't even in the Koran, it is a separate book. Not the religion it's self, Kind of like the writings of Josephus and Christianity, a historical perspective.
I have taken up the same arguments with some friends of mine who are muslims, they told me the same thing about the writings of Hadith.



BRB in 30 minutes, I have to pick my son up from school.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
ok, so it's not in the koran but the hadith is still a cornerstone document. sharia is based on the hadith and until just a few years ago sharia allowed grown men to marry 9 year old girls. they raised the age to 13.

Bereft: Did you know Pedophilia is Legal in Iran According to Sharia


did these muslims tell you about the verses that command them not to befriend non-muslims?

The Dinner Table
[5.80] You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide.


The Family of Imran
[3.28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.


single party state.






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Dankdude

Well-Known Member
If that link is what you basing your assumptions on, then you are sadly misguided my friend.

Yet the Koran says to respect all religions... Your Cherry picking as are the radicals.
 

silk

Well-Known Member
so then, during WWI and WWII we should have allowed Germany, Italy and Japan to open branch offices in our borders? never mind the inconvenience of the occasional military operation resulting in thousands of civilian casualties.

islam is not a religion. just because they bend over toward a rock every day doesn't make it a religion any more than pointing your right hand straight out at an angle makes the nazi salute religious.



Islam is not a religion. And you do not exist. Now we have the basis for your logic. See how you are flawed? I doubt it...
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
i don't understand what you're saying silk.

it's also possible that you don't understand what i'm saying because you have decided, in advance, that i'm wrong. i have not decided that you are wrong so i would appreciate clarification.






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7xstall

Well-Known Member
If that link is what you basing your assumptions on, then you are sadly misguided my friend.

Yet the Koran says to respect all religions... Your Cherry picking as are the radicals.



that link isn't the sole basis of my assumptions, but the facts about iran and sharia do contribute to the basic assumptions i have given.

please tell me where i can find the part of the koran that says to respect all religions. if you want to call it cherry picking that's fine. however, these are relevant parts of the islamic manifesto and their content is not contextual; these are intact, full statements.




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7xstall

Well-Known Member
after going through the link you gave to the wiki article i am even more convinced that islam is nothing but a political system that sprang up as an attempt to clone the Roman church's great success at intertwining government and "religious" looking activities.

they use a systematic conquer and commit strategy.

they dictate specific behaviors.

they create a homogeneous court system.

they have a militant philosophy of expansion.


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Islamic law covers all aspects of life, from broad topics of governance and foreign relations all the way down to issues of daily living.


The Qur'an and Sunnah also detail laws of inheritance, marriage, restitution for injuries and murder, as well as rules for fasting, charity, and prayer. However, the prescriptions and prohibitions may be broad, so their application in practice varies. Islamic scholars, the ulema, have elaborated systems of law on the basis of these broad rules, supplemented by the hadith reports of how Muhammad and his companions interpreted them.[86]



The formative period of Islamic jurisprudence stretches back to the times of the early Muslim communities. In this period, the theoretical concerns of the jurists associated with more pragmatic issues of authority and teaching: there had yet to be any crystallization and universality in the application of legal principles.[89] This eventually did occur, with the coming of early Muslim jurist ash-Shafi'i, who codified the basic principles of Islamic jurisprudence in his book "ar-Risālah", detailing the four aforementioned roots of law, while specifying that the primary Islamic texts (i.e. the Qur'an, and verified statements of Muhammad) be understood according to objective rules of interpretation as derived from scientific study of the Arabic language.[90]



Islamic etiquettes practiced by Muslims include saying bismillah ("in the name of God") before eating and drinking and then using the right hand for the purpose, greeting with "as-salamu `alaykum" (peace be unto you), saying Alhamdulillah ("praise be to God") when sneezing and responding with yarhamukallah (may God have mercy on you), and similarly saying the Adhan (prayer call) in the right ear of a newborn and the Iqama in their left.




Muslims, like Jews, are restricted in their diet.




Jihad is literally struggle in the way of God and is sometimes referred to as the sixth pillar of Islam, although it occupies no official status as such.[101] Within the realms of Islamic jurisprudence, jihad usually refers to military exertion against non-Muslim combatants.


Although some Islamic scholars have differered on the implementation of Jihad, there is consensus amongst them that the concept of jihad will always include armed struggle against persecution and oppression.




Despite the military successes of the Muslims at this time, the political atmosphere was not without controversy. With Umar assassinated in 644, the election of Uthman as successor was met with gradually increasing opposition.[113] He was subsequently accused of nepotism, favoritism and of introducing reprehensible religious innovations, though in reality the motivations for such charges were economic.[113] Like Umar, Uthman too was then assassinated, in 656. Ali then assumed the position of caliph, although tensions soon escalated into what became the first civil war (the "First Fitna") when numerous companions of Muhammad, including Uthman's relative Muawiyah (who was assigned by Uthman as governor of Syria) and Muhammad's wife Aisha, sought to avenge the slaying of Uthman. Ali's forces defeated the latter at the Battle of the Camel, but the encounter with Muawiyah proved indecisive, with both sides agreeing to arbitration. Ali retained his position as caliph but had been unable to bring Mu'awiyah's territory under his command




In the early 16th century, the Shi'ite Safavid dynasty assumed control in Persia under the leadership of Shah Ismail I, upon the defeat of the ruling Turcoman federation Aq Qoyunlu (also called the "White Sheep Turkomans") in 1501. The Ottoman sultan Selim I quickly sought to repel Safavid expansion, challenging and defeating them at the Battle of Chaldiran in 1514. Selim I also deposed the ruling Mamluks in Egypt, absorbing their territories into the Ottoman Empire in 1517.













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matias2911

Well-Known Member
This is the definition by encarta of religion:

re·li·gion (plural re·li·gions)

noun
Definition: 1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life

2. system: an institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine

3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by

4. obsession: an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is completely devoted to or obsessed by
The danger is that you start to make fitness a religion.

Seems to me that islam fits in there just fine, It is fairly easy to fit all muslims under a same category, same practices, and same lifestyles, yet it would be unfair to do so. As in every religion , different interpretations of the coran lead to different religious practices. The verses you quoted are from a particular translation of the coran, which is a difficult text to translate since the lack of vowels makes for different interpretations of the same passage. Their is, for instance a part of the coran which states what the prophet would do if a wife was unfaithful, controversial as it may be, it states that women should be first ''scolded verbally'' then the husband should ''hit'' the woman, yet the same word ''hit'' has several meanings such as ''lock'' , ''leave'' and a few others i do not recall. This changes the meaning radically, and there is still no real concensus between muslims as to how the coran should be read (i.e: which interpretation).
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
actually, Matias, the verse you refer to is talking about what to do if your wife talks back to you or is disrespectful. unfaithful wives are to be put to death - no questions asked. the order in the koran is "scold", "hit" and "beat severely".

the main difference between the encarta definition of religion and what we call islam is action. islam calls for specific physical actions, not only in what you eat and what you say but even in how to "further" the islamic political system and expand it's borders.

true faith based religions rely on inner conviction which result in outward manifestations. islam attempts to reverse this. you are told what to do and as a result you will believe, you must believe, because your body is carrying out the orders.

it's nothing but course, brute force sociological manipulation.



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matias2911

Well-Known Member
unfaithful wives are to be put to death - no questions asked
--> please quote the passage, I am very interested.
 

matias2911

Well-Known Member
true faith based religions rely on inner conviction which result in outward manifestations.

In theory you are correct, yet what about the first communion, the bar mitzvah, these are just a few examples of ceremonies where you are told what to do, you are taught religious principles in order to get closer to god: action leads to belief. ''inner conviction''? In my opinion , one is not born with the conviction of god, or of any religion, it is passed on by our surroundings. Yet again you are taught/told how to think. The ten commandments is a clear illustration of this.
 

matias2911

Well-Known Member
wrong again god isnt real i win game over man game over

Lol, the question here is not wether god exists or not, it is wether islam is a religion or not. My friend you are way off, this is not a game, it is a conversation. It is interesting, especially in the state of foreign policies today. But I am not going to extend my thoughts further , since you clearly have no interest in discussing the subject.
 

silk

Well-Known Member
i don't understand what you're saying silk.

it's also possible that you don't understand what i'm saying because you have decided, in advance, that i'm wrong. i have not decided that you are wrong so i would appreciate clarification.






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I agree that I decided you are wrong. How can you say Islam is not a religion? That's like saying weed doesn't get people high. It's such a fallacious statement that I was trying to point out how ridiculous it was by making another fallacious statement about you. Of course you exist, but I think you are the one that needs to clarify.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
unfaithful wives are to be put to death - no questions asked
--> please quote the passage, I am very interested.
Here are a couple passages:


Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid:
While we were with the Prophet , a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "'Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death.


Volume 8, Book 82, Number 826:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid:
Two men had a dispute in the presence of Allah's Apostle. One of them said, "Judge us according to Allah's Laws." The other who was more wise said, "Yes, Allah's Apostle, judge us according to Allah's Laws and allow me to speak (first)" The Prophet said to him, 'Speak " He said, "My son was a laborer for this man, and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and the people told me that my son should be stoned to death, but I have given one-hundred sheep and a slave girl as a ransom (expiation) for my son's sin. Then I asked the religious learned people (about It), and they told me that my son should he flogged one-hundred stripes and should be exiled for one year, and only the wife of this man should be stoned to death " Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to Allah's Laws: O man, as for your sheep and slave girl, they are to be returned to you." Then the Prophet had the man's son flogged one hundred stripes and exiled for one year, and ordered Unais Al-Aslami to go to the wife of the other man, and if she confessed, stone her to death. She confessed and was stoned to death.




to see what's going in the modern muslim world:
Punishment for adultery in Islam




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7xstall

Well-Known Member
true faith based religions rely on inner conviction which result in outward manifestations.

In theory you are correct, yet what about the first communion, the bar mitzvah, these are just a few examples of ceremonies where you are told what to do, you are taught religious principles in order to get closer to god: action leads to belief. ''inner conviction''? In my opinion , one is not born with the conviction of god, or of any religion, it is passed on by our surroundings. Yet again you are taught/told how to think. The ten commandments is a clear illustration of this.
scripturally, first communion is only real when the person chooses to engage in it. this would result from inner conviction; communion with God can not be caused or enabled by compulsory obedience to human doctrine. i do agree though, in cases where there is "forced participation" of individuals who are not aware or who have not consciously determined their participation - this is not of a spiritual nature but rather this is human conditioning.

mitzhav, etc., these are celebrations which have accumulated certain traditions over the millennia.

carrying out traditions is not the same as obedience. the koran commands you to behave, think, act, eat, have sex and pray a certain way. when you surround a person by inescapable walls you make that person a prisoner, they will eventually behave as a prisoner. their mind will create freedom and they will lose desire for physical freedom. this is islam.

not trying to get off topic, but i would argue that we are born with an inner connection to God, this is why you will find common themes in all ancient religions from every corner of the earth. even if you are right and we are born blank slates with no concept of "greater than ourselves", the boundaries set by the Ten Commandments would not regulate the behavior of a reasonable person but rather establish what is unreasonable.







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7xstall

Well-Known Member
I agree that I decided you are wrong. How can you say Islam is not a religion? That's like saying weed doesn't get people high. It's such a fallacious statement that I was trying to point out how ridiculous it was by making another fallacious statement about you. Of course you exist, but I think you are the one that needs to clarify.


obviously, i think it's ridiculous to say that islam is a religion but if this is fallacious of me show me why.

i have laid out how i can say islam is not a religion. it's a social/political system that uses religious attributes. can we call Nazism a religion or would it make more sense to call it a social/political system?

islam resulted from a desperate culture which was politically inept and socially disorganized. they also hated the Jews and their religion (including early Christianity) but they had grown tired of worshiping various objects and statues which did nothing so islam was born. they neatly tied every aspect of their peoples lives into one package.




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