10-30-20 or 10-50-30 for flower?

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DukeFluke

Well-Known Member
getogrow said:
Thats not my point sir. my point is they cannot survive without N in any stage of life. We as growers tend to cut back on N towards the end. No big deal and the ones who cut it off completely are running with whats leftover in the soil. All i am saying is that if you were to water an inert medium with zero N at the beginning of flower then your going to have problems later.
overfeeding with N is a huge mistake in flower. i agree with most of that. I still stand by P and K as being the number one and two overused nutes because "they make the buds bigger" RIU has most thinking N is bad for buds. i dont like that misinfo.
"Fading" is one thing but dying is another.....thats my only debate. Faded from low N vs Dead from no N. or even lack of yield from no N.
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If people re cutting out nitrogen at the beginning of flower they'll run into major problems. That I agree with. That's not a clever thing to do.

For the first half of the flower stage the plant needs pretty much the same nitrogen it did during veg. The issue is when people up their base feed to sustain a flowering plant in line with the guides and instructions, but the base contains enough N to support veg growth, there is where the issues come in and it's there where they should be supplementing P and K + Ca and Mg, but without the nitrogen.

So in that sense they should be boosting with those elements and cutting the N out of the equation. The base feed which makes up the other part of the feed will have enough N in it already. Just bear that in mind. It's the best way to feed a flowering plant imo.
 
Lordhooha

Lordhooha

Well-Known Member
DukeFluke said:
P is much more benign in the flower stage than N. You'll get a better finish with yellowing plants underfed nitrogen than you will plants overfed it. It's the only element which can compleely fuck the quality of your harvest. Keeping your plants green is not the priority when you're at peak bloom. Getting the fullest buds is.

There are plenty of examples of plants overfed with nitrogen on here and plenty of other forums. You don't have to look far to find them
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Untrue well fed plants should stay a healthy green throughout flower. The fade is nothing more than bro science. Think super soils they stay green til the end. In my rooms my plants stay healthy til they chop. my end weight on a faded crop and a proper fed crop is the same. When I get plants tested they generally test higher for both thc, terpenes and everything in between one my well fed crops.
 
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DukeFluke

Well-Known Member
Lordhooha said:
Untrue well fed plants should stay a healthy green throughout flower. The fade is nothing more than bro science. Think super soils they stay green til the end. In my rooms my plants stay healthy til they chop. my end weight on a faded crop and a proper fed crop is the same. When I get plants tested they generally test higher for both thc, terpenes and everything in between one my well fed crops.
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You've taken my point out of context. Plants should stay healthy green, but the yield and quality will be better on a plant underfed nitrogen than overfed it in the final stages of bloom.
 
T

TheWholeTruth

Well-Known Member
VILEPLUME said:
I'm curious as to what ratio you give your plants during flower?

I'm currently using a 10-30-20 mix but wondering if its worth switching to a higher pk mix.

Its a synthetic grow in coco and its in a flower tent where some plants are 2 weeks in and 5 weeks into flower.
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Usually the P being that high is based on old outdoor farming methods as the p leaches out fast in outdoors conditions. Not got the science to back this up but 5-5-10 or for heavy blooming plants 5-15-30 is probably better in indoors conditions with our plants. For example a good base bloom nutrient is 4-4-11 add to that in heavy bloom something like pk13-14 it makes 4-17-25.
 
Lordhooha

Lordhooha

Well-Known Member
DukeFluke said:
You've taken my point out of context. Plants should stay healthy green, but the yield and quality will be better on a plant underfed nitrogen than overfed it in the final stages of bloom.
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False ive done the bro fade and kept my plants as I always do happy and healthy. And with clones of the same plant the one that stayed green and healthy tested better and just as much or more weight than the bro fade ones. for reference I have more than enough rooms commercially that I have to get tested and report to verify this point. Now a toxic amount of nitrogen will hinder bud development.
 
getogrow

getogrow

Well-Known Member
DukeFluke said:
You've taken my point out of context. Plants should stay healthy green, but the yield and quality will be better on a plant underfed nitrogen than overfed it in the final stages of bloom.
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I believe you are saying the same as the rest of us but slightly misworded.
Im 100% that underfeeding N at any point in the plants life will hinder the yield and quality. I also agree that fading is very very stupid bro talk. I think your base food or whatever you use is enough to last or you would be saying different. If the fade is early though , you WILL gain weight AND quality by adding N.
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
DukeFluke said:
You've taken my point out of context. Plants should stay healthy green, but the yield and quality will be better on a plant underfed nitrogen than overfed it in the final stages of bloom.
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I agree with this point. I’ve seen more issues like foxtailing and even revegging because of unnecessary nitrogen. Anyone using a 3-part system can feed Micros and Bloom and provide nitrogen with both. Add in cal mag. No need for the Grow jug in flower. That’s why Lucas formula.
 
getogrow

getogrow

Well-Known Member
DukeFluke said:
No, N is not benign. It will have a serious effect in the flowering stage to the point where it will ruin a crop.

A plant can take the required nitrogen from its stores during the final week of bloom where it is just swelling out the calyxes. By that point you have built the yield you are going to get anyway and nothing short of a major fuckup will change much by then. In that instance, a plant isn't being starved of nitrogen, it's just using up what's readily available to it.
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100% agree

DukeFluke said:
You can trial this for yourself any time.... A yellowing plant can finish with solid swelled calyxes, while a dark green plant with a high percentage of nitrogen as it's finishing feed can finish airy and with a high leaf to bud ratio. If it was true that nitrogen was a building block even in the final stages then this wouldn't be the case.
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If using a very high % of N as its "finishing feed" may cause problems on a yellowing plant or a green plant. (the airy , high leaf to bud ratio is more bro talk)
When your talking final week then it shouldnt need much of anything so i assume were on the same page here....
 
getogrow

getogrow

Well-Known Member
hotrodharley said:
I’ve seen more issues like foxtailing and even revegging because of unnecessary nitrogen.
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I have seen this an done this .....ive always thought the same but as of lately , im starting to think the N is not the main culprit of this problem. I "think" stress/overwater/overfeed is the biggest factor but this is purely an opinion. I suppose i could prove or disprove this theory. I have a very healthy girl a few weeks into bloom that i can spare for a test.....
If i do decide to do this , im thinking , feed normal until about week 6 (out of 9) then switch to a pure N food for 3 or 4 waterings ? or should i keep the regular diet up and just add a giant amount of N to it ? i have some 46-0-0 perfect for the job.

EDIT: if you guys KNOW 100% one way or another then i wont waste the plant....
 
BIGBALLSJOE

BIGBALLSJOE

Member
you want to use the 10-30-20 when flowers starts to form and 10-50-30 for ripening
with this kind of ratio you dont need pk boosters, but probably something with more N for the stretch (3 first weeks)
plants will tell you by their color if they lack something or have anything in excess
they must be lushy green but not too dark, never cut out N just decrease it progressivly
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
getogrow said:
I have seen this an done this .....ive always thought the same but as of lately , im starting to think the N is not the main culprit of this problem. I "think" stress/overwater/overfeed is the biggest factor but this is purely an opinion. I suppose i could prove or disprove this theory. I have a very healthy girl a few weeks into bloom that i can spare for a test.....
If i do decide to do this , im thinking , feed normal until about week 6 (out of 9) then switch to a pure N food for 3 or 4 waterings ? or should i keep the regular diet up and just add a giant amount of N to it ? i have some 46-0-0 perfect for the job.

EDIT: if you guys KNOW 100% one way or another then i wont waste the plant....
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I have totally switched to Lucas using Jungle Juice in Pro Mix in flower. My first feed after flip is a veg feed. Straight because they need it. But after that I run Lucas and stopped having the foxtailing at the very end. That’s just my experience though. There’s so many ways to get there and deliver good product.
 
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DukeFluke

Well-Known Member
getogrow said:
I have seen this an done this .....ive always thought the same but as of lately , im starting to think the N is not the main culprit of this problem. I "think" stress/overwater/overfeed is the biggest factor but this is purely an opinion. I suppose i could prove or disprove this theory. I have a very healthy girl a few weeks into bloom that i can spare for a test.....
If i do decide to do this , im thinking , feed normal until about week 6 (out of 9) then switch to a pure N food for 3 or 4 waterings ? or should i keep the regular diet up and just add a giant amount of N to it ? i have some 46-0-0 perfect for the job.

EDIT: if you guys KNOW 100% one way or another then i wont waste the plant....
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I know for sure how it'll turn out, but you don't. So if you want to find out what it's like to grow a load of leafy burned bud then fire up that test area.
 
TintEastwood

TintEastwood

Well-Known Member
Is this correct in general?

optimal-npk-values-growing-cannabis-sm.jpg

MC2Part sack
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The N ppm kinda remains the same.
It's the ratio of N, P, and K PPM that make the diff.
 
getogrow

getogrow

Well-Known Member
DukeFluke said:
I know for sure how it'll turn out, but you don't. So if you want to find out what it's like to grow a load of leafy burned bud then fire up that test area.
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im not going to waste it if you already know the outcome.... i made that clear. Now if you were a random riu member then i would maybe continue but there is really no need if you are sure. i sure dont think it would add leaf and i know it wont "burn" um unless i try to .... thats why i asked how would you do the test ? im talking fully healthy plants to start. 6 weeks in, im not gonna see a bunch of new leaf grow but the taste might be riuned....not sure
 
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DukeFluke

Well-Known Member
You WILL see extra leaf grow. You won't see leaves growing where no leaves would grow, but you will see the leaves in the bud develop more and thicker if you use enough nitrogen during the bloom cycle.

There's only one way to find out my friend. It won't be a complete waste of a plant either, but you will definitely see the difference in the quality and weight of your finished product.
 
Southside112

Southside112

Well-Known Member
I don't even know how to cut all N out of a solution. Micro has a decent amount of N.
I usually add 2-3 ml of grow per 2 gallon up until stretch is done and then switch to the Lucas formula.
 
getogrow

getogrow

Well-Known Member
DukeFluke said:
You WILL see extra leaf grow. You won't see leaves growing where no leaves would grow, but you will see the leaves in the bud develop more and thicker if you use enough nitrogen during the bloom cycle.

There's only one way to find out my friend. It won't be a complete waste of a plant either, but you will definitely see the difference in the quality and weight of your finished product.
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something just feels right about this post so im gonna leave it at that. Taste is everything to me and i believe that would be ruined. i better just leavce her be :eyesmoke:
Thanks though , you dont find info like that without real world "tests". Sounds like you know enough to count it as gold.
 
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