A Bored Electrician to Answer Your Questions

IAm5toned

Well-Known Member
I fixed that for ya'. :razz:

Thank you from the bottom of my tank Sir! Your drawings have made it perfectly clear.

Now, what guage of wire from the breaker ---->timer----->ballast box?

.........and lastly, what can I use to repair the insulation on the ballast that i soldered?

><))))))>....Poof !
#14 or #12 will work fine... either or. #14 is good for 1440w and #12 is good for 1920w

as far as repairing the insulation, try black electrical tape.. it is its intended purpose. if it is too akward to tape, try cutting the tape off the roll. 3m makes a spray on insulation but its messy and expensive. you can coat it with epoxy but make sure the epoxy is completely cured before energizing the lamp as even the slightest amount of uncured epoxy is highly flammable and conductive... also polyurethane will work as well, but falls under the same rule.
 

chrisg420

Active Member
So i got a question. i " came across" shall we say a whole pallet of 175 watt metal halide fixures and bulbs at my old work. i ended up with one and it says it is wired for 277, but it is a quad tap. i rebuilt my 400 HPS that im currently using, so i know the basics. i believe in order to change it from 277 to 120 all i need to do is disconnect the black 277v cable from the ballast, cap it off, and connect the 120v cable (black with yellow stripe). am i correct?
 

IAm5toned

Well-Known Member
So i got a question. i " came across" shall we say a whole pallet of 175 watt metal halide fixures and bulbs at my old work. i ended up with one and it says it is wired for 277, but it is a quad tap. i rebuilt my 400 HPS that im currently using, so i know the basics. i believe in order to change it from 277 to 120 all i need to do is disconnect the black 277v cable from the ballast, cap it off, and connect the 120v cable (black with yellow stripe). am i correct?
yes, that is correct... leave the neutrals/commons as they are and switch the hot leg from the 277 tap to the 120v tap bongsmilie
 

chrisg420

Active Member
nice and then going to the wall plug i only should have a black coming from the wat will be 120, a green i believe to be ground, and a white
 

emmaegdy

Member
is there any possible way for you to send me a design for a six socket standard e26 medium base scamatics ( like the wiring of six sockets in a row to work for a wallsocket!
 

#1Raiderfan420

Well-Known Member
Got an issue that maybe you can help me with. I had a 30 amp sub panel installed and run off of it's own breaker. I have an inline timer that my two 1000w ballast are run to. I think my electrician friend may of hooked it up wrong. I looked at the schematic and it doesn't look like he has used the 220 connections. My timer drifts several mintues a day. I am harvesting this weekend so I was planning on re-wiring it then. My question is this though. Would this effect my power bill if indeed it is wired wrong? I am using 3351 kwhs vs last year this time when I used 1200 kwhs. This seem like a lot for two 1000w hids and fans. I am trying to trouble shoot without having an electician come out. I have also thought about having pg&e test my meter. Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.
 

IAm5toned

Well-Known Member
Got an issue that maybe you can help me with. I had a 30 amp sub panel installed and run off of it's own breaker. I have an inline timer that my two 1000w ballast are run to. I think my electrician friend may of hooked it up wrong. I looked at the schematic and it doesn't look like he has used the 220 connections. My timer drifts several mintues a day. I am harvesting this weekend so I was planning on re-wiring it then. My question is this though. Would this effect my power bill if indeed it is wired wrong? I am using 3351 kwhs vs last year this time when I used 1200 kwhs. This seem like a lot for two 1000w hids and fans. I am trying to trouble shoot without having an electician come out. I have also thought about having pg&e test my meter. Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.
is your timer rated for inductive loads?
 

#1Raiderfan420

Well-Known Member
do you have a model number?
Here is the information and the model number. Do you have a timer you would recommend for atleast two 1k ballasts?


This 24 hour mechanical time switch is ideal for use with spas, pools, fountains, electric water heaters and lighting. The box is a tamper-proof, lockable rust-proof enclosure. An easy wiring diagram makes this unit simple to hook up and easy to program.
  • Accommodates up to 48 on/off settings
  • Universal voltage 120-240-277
  • Heavy-duty, tamper resistant box
  • Convenient manual override switch
  • MFG Brand Name : GE
  • MFG Model # : 15207
  • MFG Part # : 15207
 

IAm5toned

Well-Known Member
Here is the information and the model number. Do you have a timer you would recommend for atleast two 1k ballasts?


This 24 hour mechanical time switch is ideal for use with spas, pools, fountains, electric water heaters and lighting. The box is a tamper-proof, lockable rust-proof enclosure. An easy wiring diagram makes this unit simple to hook up and easy to program.
  • Accommodates up to 48 on/off settings
  • Universal voltage 120-240-277
  • Heavy-duty, tamper resistant box
  • Convenient manual override switch
  • MFG Brand Name : GE
  • MFG Model # : 15207
  • MFG Part # : 15207
sorry man, i would have got back to you sooner, but yesterday was my birthday, lol.

ok... i looked up that timer, it is most def your problem. water heater timers are built to switch what is called a resisitive load, not an inductive load.

what does that mean? its complicated, and would take several pages to give a detailed explanation, so Im going to give you the cliffnotes version:

part 1
Everytime your timer activates, to switch on, there is a massive surge of electricity, called an inrush current. This is because oif the nature of electricity, when a circuit is first completed and energized, there is no electrical resistance, which allows for literally 100,000's of amps to travel through your wiring. this happens and is over in aprox. .001 seconds. this happens with every electrical device, with no exceptions. since your timer is not rated for an inductive load, this inrush will damage the conttact points of the relay inside the timer, causing a serious decrease in efficiency, overtime the timer will eventually suffer a catostrophic failure and cease to function because of this, as well as drawing more power than would typically be used for operation of the lights. it seems to me 80% of timers fail in the on position....

part2
when your timer activates to switch off, because there is an inductive load instead of a resisitive load, inside the timer, there will be an arc (spark) as the timer tries to break the circuit. this arc will mess up your timer cycle, it is why your timer is drifitng, the timer is being held energized by this arc, which in turn creates a cumalative error over time, causing your timer to drift a few seconds every cycle, adding up to minutes over a month cycle. Another thing to consider is that IF the coil (the actual timer inside the timer) is designed to be using 240v, and he (your electrician) is only using one leg of the 240v to run the timer, this will cause all kinds of problems.

part 3-

get a better timer. timers/relays are like cars, you really get what you pay for!
for 2.2kw (2200w, 1050 per ballast/fixture and 45-50w per fan) of inductive load, you need either an electromechanical time clock, or a solid state relay timer with an ice cube relay to switch the load.
if I were going to use a timeclock for your application the simplest one would be the model 1102 tork timeclock, found here.

now using an ice cube relay and a solidstate timer will free up alot of space, there smaller than your average time clock. they way to do this is to use the timer to control the coil of the relay, with the relay acting as the switch for your lights. when the timer is energized, the relay coil is energized, allowing your lights to come on. almost any cheap time switch available @ homedepot or radioshack or whatever will work just fine for this, but not the timer you already have, unfortunatly.
ice cube relays can be found here. you want one that is rated for 15amps inductive with a 120v coil, like the model number 784-4c-120a do not forget to buy the relay base/socket! it costs like 4$, without it the relay is useless ;) (the socket is what the wires connect to)
 

HipE

Member
... wow. i am really excited to find someone that has a thorough understanding of electricity and what works and doesnt. because i unfortunately dont. haha.
This may be a dumb question but from the research i have been doing it is only making me more confused. so i will just ask you. :)
Is there or is there not any HID bulb that can be ran from a normal household light socket?? i have seen some extremely low watt HPS and MH with "standard" bases that apparently can do just that. i have a small flowering box that i am currently using CFLs exclusively in but would love to add say a 50 or 70 watt HPS to really help with bud density. my lighting setup is similar to the Strip Fixture one that you just recently posted for someone. and if it would be possible to just get a 50 watt and plug her in, that would be fantastic..... unforunately i just really doubt it is that easy.. so any help, advice, info would be great. thx man. keep up the amazing help!!
 

IAm5toned

Well-Known Member
... wow. i am really excited to find someone that has a thorough understanding of electricity and what works and doesnt. because i unfortunately dont. haha.
This may be a dumb question but from the research i have been doing it is only making me more confused. so i will just ask you. :)
Is there or is there not any HID bulb that can be ran from a normal household light socket?? i have seen some extremely low watt HPS and MH with "standard" bases that apparently can do just that. i have a small flowering box that i am currently using CFLs exclusively in but would love to add say a 50 or 70 watt HPS to really help with bud density. my lighting setup is similar to the Strip Fixture one that you just recently posted for someone. and if it would be possible to just get a 50 watt and plug her in, that would be fantastic..... unforunately i just really doubt it is that easy.. so any help, advice, info would be great. thx man. keep up the amazing help!!
in all honesty, i have never seen an hid lamp that didnt require a ballast. if they are now being made with a ballast incorporated into the base like a cfl, its something new i have not run across yet
 

#1Raiderfan420

Well-Known Member
sorry man, i would have got back to you sooner, but yesterday was my birthday, lol.

ok... i looked up that timer, it is most def your problem. water heater timers are built to switch what is called a resisitive load, not an inductive load.

what does that mean? its complicated, and would take several pages to give a detailed explanation, so Im going to give you the cliffnotes version:

part 1
Everytime your timer activates, to switch on, there is a massive surge of electricity, called an inrush current. This is because oif the nature of electricity, when a circuit is first completed and energized, there is no electrical resistance, which allows for literally 100,000's of amps to travel through your wiring. this happens and is over in aprox. .001 seconds. this happens with every electrical device, with no exceptions. since your timer is not rated for an inductive load, this inrush will damage the conttact points of the relay inside the timer, causing a serious decrease in efficiency, overtime the timer will eventually suffer a catostrophic failure and cease to function because of this, as well as drawing more power than would typically be used for operation of the lights. it seems to me 80% of timers fail in the on position....

part2
when your timer activates to switch off, because there is an inductive load instead of a resisitive load, inside the timer, there will be an arc (spark) as the timer tries to break the circuit. this arc will mess up your timer cycle, it is why your timer is drifitng, the timer is being held energized by this arc, which in turn creates a cumalative error over time, causing your timer to drift a few seconds every cycle, adding up to minutes over a month cycle. Another thing to consider is that IF the coil (the actual timer inside the timer) is designed to be using 240v, and he (your electrician) is only using one leg of the 240v to run the timer, this will cause all kinds of problems.

part 3-

get a better timer. timers/relays are like cars, you really get what you pay for!
for 2.2kw (2200w, 1050 per ballast/fixture and 45-50w per fan) of inductive load, you need either an electromechanical time clock, or a solid state relay timer with an ice cube relay to switch the load.
if I were going to use a timeclock for your application the simplest one would be the model 1102 tork timeclock, found here.

now using an ice cube relay and a solidstate timer will free up alot of space, there smaller than your average time clock. they way to do this is to use the timer to control the coil of the relay, with the relay acting as the switch for your lights. when the timer is energized, the relay coil is energized, allowing your lights to come on. almost any cheap time switch available @ homedepot or radioshack or whatever will work just fine for this, but not the timer you already have, unfortunatly.
ice cube relays can be found here. you want one that is rated for 15amps inductive with a 120v coil, like the model number 784-4c-120a do not forget to buy the relay base/socket! it costs like 4$, without it the relay is useless ;) (the socket is what the wires connect to)
Thank you for the response and HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! I appreciate the detailed explanattion. I ran this by my buddy, and he actually said he is not an electrician he is an a/c specialist so he does a lot of wiring in his job. He said that he could install a relay, but was not familar with and ice cube relay. He also explained that he installed the 30 amp sub but it was a 2 breaker panel. He ran 4 110 outlets along with the two 220's. So I am going to swap out that panel for a 4 breaker panel and have him install the relay. He says that he can use the existing timer with a relay because the timer will just trigger the relay as you explained above. I don't want to cut any corners here so if I need a new timer, than I will get one. What do you think?
Bro I really appreciate the help. You are the man!!
+rep
 

IAm5toned

Well-Known Member
Thank you for the response and HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! I appreciate the detailed explanattion. I ran this by my buddy, and he actually said he is not an electrician he is an a/c specialist so he does a lot of wiring in his job. He said that he could install a relay, but was not familar with and ice cube relay. He also explained that he installed the 30 amp sub but it was a 2 breaker panel. He ran 4 110 outlets along with the two 220's. So I am going to swap out that panel for a 4 breaker panel and have him install the relay. He says that he can use the existing timer with a relay because the timer will just trigger the relay as you explained above. I don't want to cut any corners here so if I need a new timer, than I will get one. What do you think?
Bro I really appreciate the help. You are the man!!
+rep
personally, I would just get a cheap timer from homedepot... it will be more accurate than the timer you already have, and get rid of that drift problem, i know its a pain in the ass to keep adjusting the trip times, as im picky about when my lights are on and off.

and thanks for the happy bday bongsmilie
 

#1Raiderfan420

Well-Known Member
personally, I would just get a cheap timer from homedepot... it will be more accurate than the timer you already have, and get rid of that drift problem, i know its a pain in the ass to keep adjusting the trip times, as im picky about when my lights are on and off.

and thanks for the happy bday bongsmilie
You mean in addition to the relay, right? I am anal about the light schedule too and actually have been adjusting my existing timer every night or every other so that because of the drift issue..such a pain in the ass. I haven't cut any corners on my set and am bumbed that the electrical is screwed up. I want to get it all dialed.

Oh yeah, I love the avatar. I was so baked last night I watched it for like 5 mins.lol

I got the timer I am using from home depot, but here is the digital one they have for 69 bucks. Whatcha think?





This digitual unit is ideal for use with fans, pumps, pool heaters, air conditioners, blowers, lighting, etc. It comes with a simple wiring diagram and is easy to program. It accommodates up to 9 on/off settings and random vacation settings for security. The enclosure is lockable to prevent tampering.
  • Easy to set large digital display
  • Heavy-duty rain tight, rust-proof construction
  • Programmable to the minute
  • 3 month battery back up
  • MFG Brand Name : GE
  • MFG Model # : 15132
  • MFG Part # : 15132
 

IAm5toned

Well-Known Member
you dont even need that... try this, its much cheaper and does the same thing.
you'll just have to fashion a cord going from the timer to the relay coil
 
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