advice on thricome status, and time left to flush/harvest. (200/60 x zoom)

Trousers

Well-Known Member
flushing in hydro will stress plants. watering soil is not stressful. flushing for the most part is misunderstood and every one has a different definition.
For me, you flush when you feed too much.

I do not see anything wrong with watering soil for a couple weeks with just water as long as ther are enough nutes in the soil to hold the plant over.
Fert is not stored in buds at all. If you want to flush your roots so they taste better go for it.


Amber trichomes are degraded, basically like rotten fruit. Amber trichomes are rich in cbn which can make a person feel ill if there are enough. Once I see amber it is time to think about harvesting.
Terms like "couch lock" in relation to amber trichomes are bullshit.
 

Flaming Pie

Well-Known Member
If you are really concerned about ferts, and I haven't swayed you, just water without nutes until you get back. Don't flush everything out of the soil tho. Your plant still needs energy.

By the time you get back the plant should be near done maturing.
 

Bakatare666

Well-Known Member
In that case, i dont want amber. but which is it. your statement, or that of growmagazines, and a huge crowd of ppl in here ? hmm :S :)


from tuesday morning til friday 8.

I work for the government, i have travel-orders :(
What she said is true, because if you pull TOO early, with too many clear, they are not ripe yet, but if you wait too long, with too many amber, you have them over ripe, think of them as grapes.
If not ripe, grapes are sour, not sweet, as well as if you eat an over ripe one, it tastes bad also.
The trich's "sweet spot" is cloudy at maximum potency.
 

Trousers

Well-Known Member
yep

it is nearly impossible to get no amber trichomes, you just want to maximize cloudy and minimize amber
 

Dokkedal

Member
If you are really concerned about ferts, and I haven't swayed you, just water without nutes until you get back. Don't flush everything out of the soil tho. Your plant still needs energy.

By the time you get back the plant should be near done maturing.
I grow i DWC waterfarms with hydroton, dripemitters and active circulation... hmm.. do i flush with ripen and florakleen or not ? i'm actually getting a bit confused now since i hear that the flush stresses the plant i hydro.. hmm
 

Dokkedal

Member
allright, i will keep running the nutes then, and add ghe ripen to the mix to tell the plants to finish, and then harvest when i land back home again..

but should i down the EC a bit since i am near harvest then ? how are you hydroguys doing it ? :)
 

Dokkedal

Member
Most indicas flower for at least 50-60 days before ripe. Sativas take longer to ripen.

If you chop while the trichs are mostly clear, you will not have potent bud.

You got another week of growth at least imo.

Also.. curing requires you to care for the bud for another 2-3 weeks. checking on the stems, then burping jars 1-2 times a day..

Really sucks that you are going out of town.
That's a solid roger! but that is how it is.. so...
P_20130221_085622.jpgP_20130221_085547.jpgP_20130221_085500.jpgP_20130221_085452.jpgP_20130221_085442.jpgP_20130221_085436.jpgP_20130221_085431.jpgP_20130221_085420.jpgP_20130221_085405.jpgP_20130221_085400.jpgP_20130221_085350.jpgP_20130221_085343.jpgP_20130221_085336.jpgP_20130217_171523.jpg
 

Trousers

Well-Known Member
I grow i DWC waterfarms with hydroton, dripemitters and active circulation... hmm.. do i flush with ripen and florakleen or not ? i'm actually getting a bit confused now since i hear that the flush stresses the plant i hydro.. hmm
You can not flush the fert out of hydroton, I have tried. I flushed about 200 gallons through my old flood tray full of hydroton. Then it sat outside in rain and snow all winter. Then I flushed it some more. I thought I had for sure removed all the fert. I hooked it up to my pond to grow some tomatoes using the pond water. I had a massive algae bloom in the pond from the leftover nutes.

Flushing hydroton for a couple weeks is not going to do anything but stress your plants, imo.
If you are concerned, you could lower your fert amount.

No nutes in hydro is just stressful on the plant assuming that you haven't over fed.

I would suggest not flushing and seeing the results for yourself.
I run coco and plan on feeding up until the last day.
 

Twohearted

Well-Known Member
Looks all clear to me still, I would agree with Nutty skunk, wait for all cloudy and a few amber, then TIMBER HO!!
 

Dokkedal

Member
You can not flush the fert out of hydroton, I have tried. I flushed about 200 gallons through my old flood tray full of hydroton. Then it sat outside in rain and snow all winter. Then I flushed it some more. I thought I had for sure removed all the fert. I hooked it up to my pond to grow some tomatoes using the pond water. I had a massive algae bloom in the pond from the leftover nutes.

Flushing hydroton for a couple weeks is not going to do anything but stress your plants, imo.
If you are concerned, you could lower your fert amount.

No nutes in hydro is just stressful on the plant assuming that you haven't over fed.

I would suggest not flushing and seeing the results for yourself.
I run coco and plan on feeding up until the last day.
i wasnt gonna flush because of the hydroton, but because i was of the belief that you should fstop feeding nutes to make them eat the ones stored in the plants before harvest. but okay, thanks.
i will then keep up the good nutes, at the level they are at now, and ad gh ripen to the mix im giving them before departure. then harvest when i get home if they are ready. :-)
 

polyarcturus

Well-Known Member
doesn't that make it taste harsh, burn bad when you light it, or let you smoke fertilizers ? It is also my understanding that you can get a more sweet/natural taste and healty (less unhealthy) smoke? :)
your allowing the hypes to confuse you, flushing is a tool, we use it to get rid of excess waste the plant might have, this is congruent to ones growing style, i dont really flsuh either becuase the way i grow deosnt require me to.
 

Dokkedal

Member
your allowing the hypes to confuse you, flushing is a tool, we use it to get rid of excess waste the plant might have, this is congruent to ones growing style, i dont really flsuh either becuase the way i grow deosnt require me to.
Morning guys..

so tha finish is totaly dependent on the curring and not wether i flush some of the chemical nutes out before i harvest you say?
 

Dokkedal

Member
Just found this, which solved my question on wether to flush or not:

Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.

The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.

Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:

The nutrient uptake process is explained in this faq.

A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.

‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.


Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.


You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.

Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.

Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.

Translocation:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.

Summary:
Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing.
 

I2icho

Active Member
Just found this, which solved my question on wether to flush or not:

Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.

The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.

Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:

The nutrient uptake process is explained in this faq.

A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.

‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.


Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.


You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.

Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.

Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.

Translocation:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.

Summary:
Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing.
Oh Snap....
 
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