Another side by side....by side HPS VS DE HPS VS COB LED

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
Hi Mega, do you (or any de guru) know if it is important for the de ballast to use hi frequency or is the lower frequency just as good?
I'm no guru and for what ever reason that word drives me up a wall(like moist) anyways I've never tested the difference... But if there was a difference in PPF/s I would think that would be the reason more so than just the hz you know?
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
Just a quick update... And a duplicate from my journal...

Decided to be cheap yet again.... I'm almost done with my DIY 50lb Carbon filter. Tomorrow I'm going to get some more screen and it will be all set. There will be a video once it's all together.

Total cost
Activated carbon- $50
4x8 OSB- $11
8in connector-$4
Screws, wood glue, and 2 hours time- $5-60
Depending on if you count that


Total IMO
$70 for a 8"opening x 48"tall 12" wide

Better than paying the $250 for a premade one IMO. I'll follow up later on it. Oh this assumes that you have something to cut the wood already.
 

Attachments

Trippyness

Well-Known Member
What COBS are you using? What BIN?
What Amperage are you running them?
Bare LEDS can be run much closer.
No doubt COB wins vs DE.
Here is a nice video by @Growmau5 on this very subject.
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
What COBS are you using? What BIN?
What Amperage are you running them?
Bare LEDS can be run much closer.
No doubt COB wins vs DE.
Here is a nice video by @Growmau5 on this very subject.
No doubt that they will win, but by how much in the same environment? This is a proof of concept not a estimation based on numbers. I'm well aware of growmau5s videos and have seen them all. This is also to see if my theory on PPFD being more important than PPF for an area... But that will be found out soon enough. I always comment as Dimrain13 on his videos :)
 

Trippyness

Well-Known Member
No doubt that they will win, but by how much in the same environment? This is a proof of concept not a estimation based on numbers. I'm well aware of growmau5s videos and have seen them all. This is also to see if my theory on PPFD being more important than PPF for an area... But that will be found out soon enough. I always comment as Dimrain13 on his videos :)
I am also a person who prefers real world results as opposed to numbers alone.
What I want to see is a watt for watt comparison of a COB either Vero, Citi or Cree vs DE in same sized rooms same clones same environment.
Would love to see how much the LED would outproduce the DE.
Reason is the fact that COB is so much more than a DE. If the yield isnt substantially more than COB would not be worth it to me for a commercial enviornment. It would take many years to recoup any saving on electricity if yield isnt there.
However you have to factor in cooling for the DE much more than the LED.

Looking forward to your test to see which produces more per watt.
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
I am also a person who prefers real world results as opposed to numbers alone.
What I want to see is a watt for watt comparison of a COB either Vero, Citi or Cree vs DE in same sized rooms same clones same environment.
Would love to see how much the LED would outproduce the DE.
Reason is the fact that COB is so much more than a DE. If the yield isnt substantially more than COB would not be worth it to me for a commercial enviornment. It would take many years to recoup any saving on electricity if yield isnt there.
However you have to factor in cooling for the DE much more than the LED.

Looking forward to your test to see which produces more per watt.
You don't need a way to watt comparison to get more.. If you get 1g/W with de HPS I would think you can get something like 1.4-1.7g/w with cobs... But time will tell
 

Trippyness

Well-Known Member
You don't need a way to watt comparison to get more.. If you get 1g/W with de HPS I would think you can get something like 1.4-1.7g/w with cobs... But time will tell
I agree COBS will win. My issue is that I know people hitting 1.5 GPW with DE and higher with Blue Dream.
For example purposes, lets say that the DE hits 1GPW and the LED hits 1.5GPW.
1,000 Grams for the DE = 2.2LBS
1,500 Grams for the LED = 3.31LBS
In Money terms in my area in Canada a LB goes for 2k.
DE = $4,400 wholesale
LED =$6,620 wholesale
Thats a $2,220 difference per harvest.
If 4 harvests a year, thats $8,880 per 1,000w of COB over DE.
LED pays for itself first grow.
For those who grow for personal reasons thats 1.11LB difference per harvest. Could be more or slightly less depending on genetics etc.
So for all intensive purposes, COBS our preform DE.
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
I agree COBS will win. My issue is that I know people hitting 1.5 GPW with DE and higher with Blue Dream.
For example purposes, lets say that the DE hits 1GPW and the LED hits 1.5GPW.
1,000 Grams for the DE = 2.2LBS
1,500 Grams for the LED = 3.31LBS
In Money terms in my area in Canada a LB goes for 2k.
DE = $4,400 wholesale
LED =$6,620 wholesale
Thats a $2,220 difference per harvest.
If 4 harvests a year, thats $8,880 per 1,000w of COB over DE.
LED pays for itself first grow.
For those who grow for personal reasons thats 1.11LB difference per harvest. Could be more or slightly less depending on genetics etc.
So for all intensive purposes, COBS our preform DE.
Exactly it's just all over a better option. But some stoners can't see past the right now.. Can't see the price being worth it... I try to explain but what can you do lol
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
So I had to move around a lot of things, but anyways the grow will be OG KUSH and GG#4. I'm cleaning all this tomorrow with a shop vac. Lights are cranked up to 1000W, and the other is 825W(ish). One set wil have 2 OGKushes other than that it will all be the same layout, same nutes, same environment. I'll also be putting up panda film walls between each area. I moved the Pinapple express into the closet in the back for a mother plant.
 

Attachments

Budies 101

Well-Known Member
I'd like to see in a 4x4 or 4x8 what can grow more, Led or HPS. To me that's the only metric that matters. I don't care if you use 1000watt led vs 1000watt HPS. Commercial or in a tent, closet or basement the only thing that will limit all growers is space (indoor).

I am thinking about adding a grow log in the next couple months with my rec cob grow I'm building out now.

At some point believe it or not we will be paying dollars for Cobs, that's if they are not pre made in a light running 200watts for 150$ or somthing like that. In the end "investment" in led for a grower on any level will be the same for led vs HPS. a 1k watt of led in a 4x4 to me seems like a massive waste as yeilds i would think would hardly reflect the energy used. At some point the plant simply does not soak up light just because it's being blasted, if it did people would do 5k watts of hps over a 4x4 and get 10 pounds, but even if that were true we know the space won't allow a 10 pound (dried) plant to be grown.

This is just all my opinion and I'll be doing a 4x8 led grow to test and should post what I get in that space. If it works out I'd like to see if any HPS can beat what I believe LED are capable of. I'm of the opinion that people are not making the best use of their space, not an arrogant opinion but rather I see a lot of wasted space in every single grow I see and will post a log to see if I can make use of that space... If not, oh well. If so, maybe others can use that information.
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
I'd like to see in a 4x4 or 4x8 what can grow more, Led or HPS. To me that's the only metric that matters. I don't care if you use 1000watt led vs 1000watt HPS. Commercial or in a tent, closet or basement the only thing that will limit all growers is space (indoor).

I am thinking about adding a grow log in the next couple months with my rec cob grow I'm building out now.

At some point believe it or not we will be paying dollars for Cobs, that's if they are not pre made in a light running 200watts for 150$ or somthing like that. In the end "investment" in led for a grower on any level will be the same for led vs HPS. a 1k watt of led in a 4x4 to me seems like a massive waste as yeilds i would think would hardly reflect the energy used. At some point the plant simply does not soak up light just because it's being blasted, if it did people would do 5k watts of hps over a 4x4 and get 10 pounds, but even if that were true we know the space won't allow a 10 pound (dried) plant to be grown.

This is just all my opinion and I'll be doing a 4x8 led grow to test and should post what I get in that space. If it works out I'd like to see if any HPS can beat what I believe LED are capable of. I'm of the opinion that people are not making the best use of their space, not an arrogant opinion but rather I see a lot of wasted space in every single grow I see and will post a log to see if I can make use of that space... If not, oh well. If so, maybe others can use that information.
All fair points, the 4x8 you can check out Growmau5 on YouTube.. He breaks it down by any metric you would want. I'm doing this because I have seen it done, I'm sure that is has.. But not in the same environment. After this grow... I'll not have any waste space in my grow room and will have a lot of lights that will be spread out quite nicely.
 

Budies 101

Well-Known Member
All fair points, the 4x8 you can check out Growmau5 on YouTube.. He breaks it down by any metric you would want. I'm doing this because I have seen it done, I'm sure that is has.. But not in the same environment. After this grow... I'll not have any waste space in my grow room and will have a lot of lights that will be spread out quite nicely.

Yeah, G5 is great and is what got me into led growing.

How tall are your ceiling btw?
 

Budies 101

Well-Known Member

Mine are 12 foot but in a 9 foot area i plan on running rack and growing on top of itself, like what you see done for clones. 4x8 + 4x8 with 2400ish watts. Double your space.

LED with low profile and ability to be very close to plants towards end of flower should allow for stacking.
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
Mine are 12 foot but in a 9 foot area i plan on running rack and growing on top of itself, like what you see done for clones. 4x8 + 4x8 with 2400ish watts. Double your space.

LED with low profile and ability to be very close to plants towards end of flower should allow for stacking.
Why not just grow vertical? Even less wasted space, LED doent care about gravity.
 

Budies 101

Well-Known Member
Why not just grow vertical? Even less wasted space, LED doent care about gravity.

A few reasons.

1: From what I have seen HPS would far outperform LED on a vertical grow as you can do a vertical bulb hitting all plants without a reflector while LED would require far more actual lights to grow equal to the HPS. LED is directional while HPS with a single bulb can hit to the left, right and bottom.

2: From everything I have seen a vertical grow looks to be a nightmare to keep up. It seems like you have 2 options, big ass plants meaning you lose a huge amount of time or have to have massive veg rooms.

3:Watering if you actually are planting vertically not just training a big plant to grow up a few feet more seems like a huge investment of time with possibilities of big problem.

4: Training/cleaning.

If a room is tall, like 12-20 feet lets just say, the best vertical that I know of would be to actually plant the plants going up, training in a vertical scrog. If you just grow big plants it would only help in a small are IMO, like 8 foot or less ceiling height. It's simply a measurement of sqft, if I can grow in a 4x8 and run 10 beds in a row, then stack them 1x I double my grow space (generally) compared to a normal HPS grow. On a vertical grow the only way to keep up is to go really tall... In the end it might be more on a yield but at this point I don't want to figure out something like that. a 12 foot ceiling means I COULD do 3 grows stacked. I will start with a single stack and if I can keep my strains in a 4 foot area I'll look at adding a third grow. Even at that i'd need to fill the space with a double grow before caring about a triple. 1k sqft grow room is now 2k, and another level would be 3k... That's huge for a smaller grower.

Again this is all just my opinion and the direction I'm willing to take. I'll see if it even works =)

I'm not opposed to trying new things, obviously as I build my own lights and grow with diy led lights. We can only do so much at one time tho =)

Thanks for the idea tho! Who knows, maybe a vertical grow is in my future!

last thing. I think the space saved by a vertical grow is false. I could say a room is 1k sqft and say I'm growing in 1k sqft but reality is the canopy space would be more like 700sqft or you can't even get to plants or walk around your room. Same goes for growing in racks, but I can put racks on wheels and move them side to side just giving me 4 foot work space then move them back giving me 2 foot aisles. When I see vertical grows it's much the same, you have to have work space or problems will destroy you before you even know they exist. Growing in a tent is different than a whole room whatever the size of the room is.

Still I believe that 2 levels, even in a small tent would be much faster turnover and easier to work on than a U shaped vertical grow. If you measure canopy space I believe that U shape is far less than people think while 2 levels of lets say 4x4 is a 4x8. a U shape would require big plants to grow that high up the sides (massive time loss) and you would have to go all the way to the ceiling to really beat stacking IMO.

This is again all my guess from hat I have seen, I'll base more off reality when I finish my first grow in racks. =)
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
A few reasons.

1: From what I have seen HPS would far outperform LED on a vertical grow as you can do a vertical bulb hitting all plants without a reflector while LED would require far more actual lights to grow equal to the HPS. LED is directional while HPS with a single bulb can hit to the left, right and bottom.

2: From everything I have seen a vertical grow looks to be a nightmare to keep up. It seems like you have 2 options, big ass plants meaning you lose a huge amount of time or have to have massive veg rooms.

3:Watering if you actually are planting vertically not just training a big plant to grow up a few feet more seems like a huge investment of time with possibilities of big problem.

4: Training/cleaning.

If a room is tall, like 12-20 feet lets just say, the best vertical that I know of would be to actually plant the plants going up, training in a vertical scrog. If you just grow big plants it would only help in a small are IMO, like 8 foot or less ceiling height. It's simply a measurement of sqft, if I can grow in a 4x8 and run 10 beds in a row, then stack them 1x I double my grow space (generally) compared to a normal HPS grow. On a vertical grow the only way to keep up is to go really tall... In the end it might be more on a yield but at this point I don't want to figure out something like that. a 12 foot ceiling means I COULD do 3 grows stacked. I will start with a single stack and if I can keep my strains in a 4 foot area I'll look at adding a third grow. Even at that i'd need to fill the space with a double grow before caring about a triple. 1k sqft grow room is now 2k, and another level would be 3k... That's huge for a smaller grower.

Again this is all just my opinion and the direction I'm willing to take. I'll see if it even works =)

I'm not opposed to trying new things, obviously as I build my own lights and grow with diy led lights. We can only do so much at one time tho =)

Thanks for the idea tho! Who knows, maybe a vertical grow is in my future!

last thing. I think the space saved by a vertical grow is false. I could say a room is 1k sqft and say I'm growing in 1k sqft but reality is the canopy space would be more like 700sqft or you can't even get to plants or walk around your room. Same goes for growing in racks, but I can put racks on wheels and move them side to side just giving me 4 foot work space then move them back giving me 2 foot aisles. When I see vertical grows it's much the same, you have to have work space or problems will destroy you before you even know they exist. Growing in a tent is different than a whole room whatever the size of the room is.

Still I believe that 2 levels, even in a small tent would be much faster turnover and easier to work on than a U shaped vertical grow. If you measure canopy space I believe that U shape is far less than people think while 2 levels of lets say 4x4 is a 4x8. a U shape would require big plants to grow that high up the sides (massive time loss) and you would have to go all the way to the ceiling to really beat stacking IMO.

This is again all my guess from hat I have seen, I'll base more off reality when I finish my first grow in racks. =)

1. Is highly inaccurate, with reflectors being around 92-94% Efficient you are not gaining anything of worth running bare bullbed compared to having LED on its side, just look at @ttystikk. He has proved this already.

2. Yes it takes longer but thats worth it if your biggest issue is space to grow in.

3. Hydro hybrid automated system, auto top off on your DWC buckets from a gravity fed Res. No issues with water as hydro uses 2/3 less water.

4. Its as easy as a scrog, just on its side.

As for your last statement, its all about what you feel comfortable with, if you want to run the entire height of your room... you wont have anyone close to you when it comes to the numbers you pull per SQ/FT. However thats not the intent of the ceiling height, thats more for commercial growers that really dont care about efficiency as the plants pay for the costs... that is until LED growers drive the price down to something like 100/oz or something like that(not me but just saying). Plants grow almost twice as fast in veg with DWC so thats something to think about.

This guy has a good setup, just go 12/12 from seed and load this bad boy up. Hes not really up to date on LED tech but the idea is sound.

 
Top