~*Another_Led_Thread*~
- Thread starter Treeth
- Start date
I read it, and I looked at all the links.
My thinking is, why white, wouldnt that be defeating the purpose of using led lighting to hit specific wave lengths?
The other thing that bothers me is the power. I am not a mathematician but let me explain.
Suppose it was dark and you had 40 10 watt flashlights all pointing in the same direction.
Now you turned on a 400W HPS, right next to them. Would you even see the light from the flashlights? I dont think so. I realize plants react differently to light but there has to be some similar effect.
So by combining 400 1 watt bulbs is still not going to give you amount of light as a 400w bulb right? I guess what I am getting at is what we need is higher wattage LED's to make this work properly.
Lets assume that a plant uses 15% of the available light. Does that mean 15% of the wattage? Considering the previous example not by using multiple lower wattage lamps.
I have a light meter and play around with lighting, from what I found my plants do best between 10k and 20k lumens of HID lighting. So would we be talking 1500 to 3000 of led?
My guess would be about 5000.
So how would you get there? I dont know how it adds up. I guess you can not use lumens to calculate. So I did a little research and came up with this. Maybe it will help.
------------------------------------------
Regarding lumens, PAR and photons:
The only accurate type of measurement for light intensity is "Photosynthetic Photon Flux" (PPF) and to a greater extent "Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density" (PPFD). Lumens and PAR are grossly inaccurate when measuring the actual plant usable light energy produced by a bulb.
Here is why :
a) higher levels of lumens does not necessarily mean more plant usable light (in most cases it means the opposite)...its about Quantum Yield Curve (ASP x CAS) and amount of photons (PPF).
b) a bulb with a high PAR rating only means the bulb emits more of its energy within the 400-700nm wavelength; not the amount in regards to photons.
c) PPF measures microEinsteins per square meter per second, for photons having wavelengths between 400-700 nm (PAR). This has the same limitation as the PAR watt, by treating all wavelengths in the range as equally useful for plant growth (eg. equal weight). This is why we can use blue and red PARA, PARA ratio and PUR, etc.
Blue PAR (400-500nm):
-increased photosynthesis
-preferred by chlorophyll b**
-preferred less than, but nearly as much as red by chlorophyll a
-stimulates the phototropic response (plants grow towards blue light)
-zeitlupe is a blue light receptor*
-phototropin is a blue light receptor*
-cryptochrome is a blue light receptor*
-zeaxanthin is a blue receptive pigment that opens stoma in daylight (important if you add Co2)
-carotenoids*** absorb blue light and transfer the energy to chlorophyll b (helps offset lower efficiency of blue photon)
-wavelength is shorter and higher in energy, blue photons are absorbed less efficiently (lower action rate due to photons higher energy)
*The blue light receptors do a variety of the following:
mediate blue light-induced phototropism (circadian rhythms), chloroplast re-localization, opening of the stomatal aperture and stimulates proton pumps that drive protons out of the cells which starts off a whole set of reactions; electrochemical gradients, osmosis of water, etc.
**Chlorophyll b is naturally more concentrated in the lower section of higher plants, especially in shaded plant matter. When plant matter is in the shade Chlorophyll b will accumulate in greater amounts.
***Carotenoids are naturally more concentrated in/near the canopy of higher plants. When a plant is under intense blue PAR light carotenoids will accumulate in greater amounts in the canopy.
Red PAR (600-700nm):
-enables the conversion of starch into malate which keeps the stomata open. (important if you add Co2)
-preferred by chlorophyll a, although blue is preferred nearly as much by chlorophyll a
-nearly all plants have a higher concentration of chlorophyll a than chlorophyll b
-wavelength is longer and lower in energy, red photons are absorbed more efficiently (higher action rate due to photons lower energy)"
---------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you guys can use some of that.
Another thing I will toss out there for your consideration.
What I would call the best mix I have found.
5 X purple (420-430nm) (used with deep red for peak chlorophyll A production)
5 X royal blue (455nm) (peak chlorophyll B production and also ß-Carotene production)
10X blue (460-470nm) (Beta-carotene production and also chlorophyll B production)
20X red (620-630nm) (close enough to 640nm for chlorophyll B production and also perfect for phycocyanin production)
10X deep red (660nm) (peak chlorophyll A production)
5 X yellow (585-595) (used for phycoerythrin production)
5 X Pure white (helps the production of chlorophyll A)
Oh, and Treeth, Thanks for the pics. Your design is a bit too tall for my ideas. I would need something around 2 inches tall for what I have in mind.
My thinking is, why white, wouldnt that be defeating the purpose of using led lighting to hit specific wave lengths?
The other thing that bothers me is the power. I am not a mathematician but let me explain.
Suppose it was dark and you had 40 10 watt flashlights all pointing in the same direction.
Now you turned on a 400W HPS, right next to them. Would you even see the light from the flashlights? I dont think so. I realize plants react differently to light but there has to be some similar effect.
So by combining 400 1 watt bulbs is still not going to give you amount of light as a 400w bulb right? I guess what I am getting at is what we need is higher wattage LED's to make this work properly.
Lets assume that a plant uses 15% of the available light. Does that mean 15% of the wattage? Considering the previous example not by using multiple lower wattage lamps.
I have a light meter and play around with lighting, from what I found my plants do best between 10k and 20k lumens of HID lighting. So would we be talking 1500 to 3000 of led?
My guess would be about 5000.
So how would you get there? I dont know how it adds up. I guess you can not use lumens to calculate. So I did a little research and came up with this. Maybe it will help.
------------------------------------------
Regarding lumens, PAR and photons:
The only accurate type of measurement for light intensity is "Photosynthetic Photon Flux" (PPF) and to a greater extent "Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density" (PPFD). Lumens and PAR are grossly inaccurate when measuring the actual plant usable light energy produced by a bulb.
Here is why :
a) higher levels of lumens does not necessarily mean more plant usable light (in most cases it means the opposite)...its about Quantum Yield Curve (ASP x CAS) and amount of photons (PPF).
b) a bulb with a high PAR rating only means the bulb emits more of its energy within the 400-700nm wavelength; not the amount in regards to photons.
c) PPF measures microEinsteins per square meter per second, for photons having wavelengths between 400-700 nm (PAR). This has the same limitation as the PAR watt, by treating all wavelengths in the range as equally useful for plant growth (eg. equal weight). This is why we can use blue and red PARA, PARA ratio and PUR, etc.
Blue PAR (400-500nm):
-increased photosynthesis
-preferred by chlorophyll b**
-preferred less than, but nearly as much as red by chlorophyll a
-stimulates the phototropic response (plants grow towards blue light)
-zeitlupe is a blue light receptor*
-phototropin is a blue light receptor*
-cryptochrome is a blue light receptor*
-zeaxanthin is a blue receptive pigment that opens stoma in daylight (important if you add Co2)
-carotenoids*** absorb blue light and transfer the energy to chlorophyll b (helps offset lower efficiency of blue photon)
-wavelength is shorter and higher in energy, blue photons are absorbed less efficiently (lower action rate due to photons higher energy)
*The blue light receptors do a variety of the following:
mediate blue light-induced phototropism (circadian rhythms), chloroplast re-localization, opening of the stomatal aperture and stimulates proton pumps that drive protons out of the cells which starts off a whole set of reactions; electrochemical gradients, osmosis of water, etc.
**Chlorophyll b is naturally more concentrated in the lower section of higher plants, especially in shaded plant matter. When plant matter is in the shade Chlorophyll b will accumulate in greater amounts.
***Carotenoids are naturally more concentrated in/near the canopy of higher plants. When a plant is under intense blue PAR light carotenoids will accumulate in greater amounts in the canopy.
Red PAR (600-700nm):
-enables the conversion of starch into malate which keeps the stomata open. (important if you add Co2)
-preferred by chlorophyll a, although blue is preferred nearly as much by chlorophyll a
-nearly all plants have a higher concentration of chlorophyll a than chlorophyll b
-wavelength is longer and lower in energy, red photons are absorbed more efficiently (higher action rate due to photons lower energy)"
---------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you guys can use some of that.
Another thing I will toss out there for your consideration.
What I would call the best mix I have found.
5 X purple (420-430nm) (used with deep red for peak chlorophyll A production)
5 X royal blue (455nm) (peak chlorophyll B production and also ß-Carotene production)
10X blue (460-470nm) (Beta-carotene production and also chlorophyll B production)
20X red (620-630nm) (close enough to 640nm for chlorophyll B production and also perfect for phycocyanin production)
10X deep red (660nm) (peak chlorophyll A production)
5 X yellow (585-595) (used for phycoerythrin production)
5 X Pure white (helps the production of chlorophyll A)
Oh, and Treeth, Thanks for the pics. Your design is a bit too tall for my ideas. I would need something around 2 inches tall for what I have in mind.
repvip
Well-Known Member
Nice food for thought cruzer!
White LEDs, to me, seem to defeat the purpose as well... Some companies are coming out with the "4th gen" LED lights with PURE WHITE and I was curious... why? I don't see the reasoning... except they are a lot cheaper and put out a lot of light.
You are completely correct about lumens not being a good measure of light intensity. I'm not even sure if the larger wattage LEDs are preferable. The 1w LEDs have the highest efficiency.
http://led.linear1.org/category/led-basics/
Good basic led info...
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/ligcon.html
Awesome site for physics of light.
Do they even make purple (420ish nm) LEDs?
White LEDs, to me, seem to defeat the purpose as well... Some companies are coming out with the "4th gen" LED lights with PURE WHITE and I was curious... why? I don't see the reasoning... except they are a lot cheaper and put out a lot of light.
You are completely correct about lumens not being a good measure of light intensity. I'm not even sure if the larger wattage LEDs are preferable. The 1w LEDs have the highest efficiency.
http://led.linear1.org/category/led-basics/
Good basic led info...
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/ligcon.html
Awesome site for physics of light.
Do they even make purple (420ish nm) LEDs?
Treeth
Well-Known Member
Two inches = Custom fabricated everything. $,$, and more $.
Even procyon's water cooled bar has to be closer to 4 or 6 inches.
=I can slim a unit down to 2 1/2 to 3", and move the power supply off site,
which wouldn't be too difficult, I already got such a design worked out in my brain noodles. I just prefer, you know, to work in a room, so thats what I built.
Damn, all those colors would make one mean light, especially with the imaginary, or future 10k luminous flux dees.
Have you seen the new sulfur plasma lights from LG?
I'll bet those put out more lumens than any HID... finally some real competition!
Even procyon's water cooled bar has to be closer to 4 or 6 inches.
=I can slim a unit down to 2 1/2 to 3", and move the power supply off site,
which wouldn't be too difficult, I already got such a design worked out in my brain noodles. I just prefer, you know, to work in a room, so thats what I built.
Damn, all those colors would make one mean light, especially with the imaginary, or future 10k luminous flux dees.
Have you seen the new sulfur plasma lights from LG?
I'll bet those put out more lumens than any HID... finally some real competition!
Treeth
Well-Known Member
Yeah those ceramics are the shit!
The best of solid state and high discharge!
I'm just about finished the thought process behind my newest concoction...
It's gonna be 510 watts of rebel red
and probably 50? or so watts of royal blue,
4 uvb and maybe two, or even 4 23watt daylight cfls.
If it fails, meaning I don't achieve dense 3.5-4 inch colas, I will quit the dee game for good.
I imagine that this will be the highest wattage/density led flowering yet!!!
If I don't get solid 4 inch frosted colas I will quit with the LED things.
I imagine that this will then become the highest density led grow yet?!?!
AND the led part of the fixture will probably only hang at 3.5 inches deep!
Mainly by off loading the psu(s) and simplifying the hanging structure.
It's going over a 5 gallon bucket, holding 4 soon to be taken cuttings, fed fog style.
Re god damn diculous.
The best of solid state and high discharge!
I'm just about finished the thought process behind my newest concoction...
It's gonna be 510 watts of rebel red
and probably 50? or so watts of royal blue,
4 uvb and maybe two, or even 4 23watt daylight cfls.
If it fails, meaning I don't achieve dense 3.5-4 inch colas, I will quit the dee game for good.
I imagine that this will be the highest wattage/density led flowering yet!!!
If I don't get solid 4 inch frosted colas I will quit with the LED things.
I imagine that this will then become the highest density led grow yet?!?!
AND the led part of the fixture will probably only hang at 3.5 inches deep!
Mainly by off loading the psu(s) and simplifying the hanging structure.
It's going over a 5 gallon bucket, holding 4 soon to be taken cuttings, fed fog style.
Re god damn diculous.
repvip
Well-Known Member
re god damn diculous is right!
That is going to be the shit!!!
Red is where it's at. I'm so impressed with this light I'm going to finish this entire crop under it. I haven't seen this many trich's on this strain at this stage... ever! The buds could be slightly bigger, but damn they are looking sweet!
Your light will beat this easy.
This is 31 days flowering.
That is going to be the shit!!!
Red is where it's at. I'm so impressed with this light I'm going to finish this entire crop under it. I haven't seen this many trich's on this strain at this stage... ever! The buds could be slightly bigger, but damn they are looking sweet!
Your light will beat this easy.
This is 31 days flowering.
Attachments
repvip
Well-Known Member
god you idiots are all the same.
Think about it for two minutes. Like an investment. The price is high, yes (the whole point of this thread was on building one, which is siginificantly cheaper) but it's a one time price. The light will last 50,000 hours. You should replace your precious HPS bulbs every 6 months.
Then there's the heat factor. Or lack of it. Growers in california are gonna love this. This means.... tada... NO A/C unit! Which is easily another 1000watts... and.... NO DUCTWORK..... NO BLOWERS...... all saving you time and $$$ and ultimately decreasing your risk of detection.
The yields from this grow alone look like they will be about the same as what I was getting with the HPS.
Mr.Bob Saget
Active Member
I don't want to argue, because I'm really into LED's and I'm talking with Treeth about them, but there is really no less heat with LED's. If you did a 1000 Watt LED system, you would have some heat. A Watt burnt is a Watt Burnt.
repvip
Well-Known Member
Hmmm.. I disagree.
At least, with the professionaly made panels, there are no heat problems whatsoever. I should know. Mine is a combination of 1 and 3w LEDs totaling 350w. I honestly believe this light is comparable to HID, when you factor in the many other benefits.
Anyway.. you may get into some heat issues with the 5w and 10w leds. I suppose if you don't solder efficiently you could have heat problems with the 3w leds, or if you neglect a heat sink or just plain suck at designing your shit.
A watt burned is not a watt burned, either. Some watts are just plain wasted energy as heat. My 350w LED panel is no where near as hot as a 400w HID, or even my 50w CFL's! I can touch the LED light without burning. I can't even unscrew the CFL without burning myself. You just can't compare watts that way.
Treeth
Well-Known Member
Rep Vip,
Love your girls man.
Good Stuff... Imagine if they had 80 watts each!?!
These lights are great for stressing resin production.
About heat:
I think the difference with dees is that they have adequate heatsinking attached and required unlike... everything else.
The problem with dees is that the efficiency just drops through the floor as they get hotter. If you had a liquid N cooling system... Talk about "overclocking" a light!
-You could pump a ton of amps through those suckers.
My sinks get to around 70-80 degrees, barely even warm to the touch. I imagine that they could heat up an enclosed, poorly ventilated, or small room pretty fast, till the heatsinks start rising in temp themselves.
A watt is a watt, led's just push that shit out the back to where it is evenly distributed. They aren't that effecient.
...DO NOT ABUSE!!!
Rebel Red baby.
There couldn't be a better name than that.
Love your girls man.
Good Stuff... Imagine if they had 80 watts each!?!
These lights are great for stressing resin production.
About heat:
I think the difference with dees is that they have adequate heatsinking attached and required unlike... everything else.
The problem with dees is that the efficiency just drops through the floor as they get hotter. If you had a liquid N cooling system... Talk about "overclocking" a light!
-You could pump a ton of amps through those suckers.
My sinks get to around 70-80 degrees, barely even warm to the touch. I imagine that they could heat up an enclosed, poorly ventilated, or small room pretty fast, till the heatsinks start rising in temp themselves.
A watt is a watt, led's just push that shit out the back to where it is evenly distributed. They aren't that effecient.
...DO NOT ABUSE!!!
Rebel Red baby.
There couldn't be a better name than that.
Mr.Bob Saget
Active Member
There must be some sort of heat sink or fans blowing over the back side. If the LED is on it is making heat that needs to be removed before the LED burns out, which can happen within minutes or seconds if it is not cooled.
Mrnoprints
Active Member
I used d's for seed and veg, but some threads scared me into buying an hps for flowering. Didn't want to take any chances being my third attempt at a first grow. Now my girl is looking thick and smoking hot. She got curves in all the right places. Her hair is thick and her skin is sticky to the touch. Just how I like her. feeling like she just got out the shower. LOL. I take this shit seriously and plan to be giving advice here some day. I got the D for the greenness of the product and it definitely served it's purpose. Honestly the plants that I've seen flowered with d's seemed to be alot skimpier than the HID's. That's just speaking from what I've seen.
repvip
Well-Known Member
Yes, but have you ever seen buds with 100+ watts of LEDs?
JJD
Well-Known Member
Are insults really necessary?
You say all that as if it applies to me, which my original statement did. I don't have an AC, i dont live in cali and i dont have heat problems therefor there is no reason, at this current time, for me to invest into LED's
Don't get me wrong man, I love your setup, but Im not running as big of an op so for me the MH/HPS will suit me better and produce better bud than LED's would.
Treeth
Well-Known Member
Reppy you need to get an IR bulb in there man...
Thats where the phat flowers come from, I'm sure you'll notice a difference after only a couple of days.
All you need to run it for is 5 minutes after lights out,
and then you can increase the day time by a couple of hours as well. Make sure all the plants get hit!
(Never mind you got an HPS,... I still would recommend trying it though... its only like a 15 buck bulb and a timer)
Water cooling... ha. Actually the theorem innovations pro bloom whatever model number is water cooled!
2000 bucks for a set up though....
Thats where the phat flowers come from, I'm sure you'll notice a difference after only a couple of days.
All you need to run it for is 5 minutes after lights out,
and then you can increase the day time by a couple of hours as well. Make sure all the plants get hit!
(Never mind you got an HPS,... I still would recommend trying it though... its only like a 15 buck bulb and a timer)
Water cooling... ha. Actually the theorem innovations pro bloom whatever model number is water cooled!
2000 bucks for a set up though....
By IR bulb you a referring to an infrared bulb correct? i have aheard a lot about Supplementing with uv, cfl etc...
anyway, can you get decent UV and/or IR led's? what are the known benefits of each (i.e. i have heard uv aides in resin production)
also i am wondering, with a the 5mm panels that are all over ebay, if you keep the panels back more than 5 inches, the led's will be quite innefective correct? because you use the inverse square law for each individual 5mm led, not for the collective panel... well you may get where im going. is this logical? lol sorry if i sound like a vulcan!
this is turning into an info filled thread, thanks everyone whos putting up useful info!