Any other Spinozists or Naturalistic Pantheists out there?

Hey Chartreuse, thank you for the kind words. I think the biggest thing that people don't understand is that no atheist, by default, CHOOSES not to believe in a supreme being; as CHOOSING not to believe implies that there is at least some belief that a supreme being may exist. On a more personal note, you like absinthe... I can't stand it. I want to like it because it is cool to drink it and a lot of awesome people in history have, but I just can't. You can't make yourself like something or not like something just as you can't convince yourself to believe something or not to believe something.

I've thought a lot about DNA, but didn't think about it when creating this thread. I don't know that I could go so far as to equate DNA with god, but I do believe it has some important connection; not sure what I think of it yet though or how to describe it. Everyone is different so it wouldn't surprise me if everyone had a slightly different belief system from the next guy.

As for a soul, there is no need for one in my world view. I used to believe in souls, but have spent some time studying neuroscience in university and that will kill all notions of a soul, free will, and for some even god real quick. Our brains are very well explained, its just we don't have many definitive answer as to how it functions. "How can a brain just happen" is answered by evolution just as the similar question, "How can an eye just happen". Richard Dawkins has a great explanation for this if you search on Youtube. On another note, try this for me and see what you think:

Remember the cartoons where the bad guy (or whoever) created a machine that would switch peoples minds? Imagine if that happened to you; who would you be? If I were there with Thomas Jefferson and we had our minds switched. I'd say that was me in TJ's body and TJ was in mine. Would you agree? [If yes, continue] This leads me to think the "soul" is located in our heads as that is the part that we identify as "I".

Now imagine reincarnation in the traditional sense. You die and are reborn in another body, however you keep your memories of your past life, yet your have a completely different brain than before. I would say that that was me in a different body. Would you? [If yes, continue] This leads me to think that maybe it isn't the brain that I identify myself with... but maybe my thoughts and memories.

Now imagine reincarnation again, only this time you retain no memories whatsoever of your past life and you have a completely different body as you did before. Would you say this is you in a different body? You have to be honest with yourself here as this is where many people that WANT to believe in a soul will try to convince themselves/lie to themselves in order to hold onto this belief. If you do believe it's you in a different body, maybe you can explain why. I personally would not say that that was me in a different body. In my opinion, we identify the "I", ourself, with our memories. It's a bit more complicated than that though when you get into memory loss, but I will talk about that in a different post if anyone asks about it.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just trying to share my pov and maybe find some people that believe the same or similar to me. I'm certainly not trying to make atheism into a religion. If I've given that impression it wasn't my intention. There is no rituals, no doctrine other than my own personally held beliefs. Atheists that want religion have the Unitarian Universalist church. If I've said anything that is illogical, incoherent, or ill informed... please let me know. Challenge me. I want to know if I'm wrong.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to read and comment on my post.

Well, we know our brain works with chemical messages. And you mentioned free will? how does that go with what we are talking about? The fact that we can know knowledge and consciousness is like the very proof of a soul, (otherwise we would be nothings) which for me is God. God=soul. same thing. its the spirit. and I can see how if you don't believe in God, a soul would not exist too. When we are put into consciousness via our brain, maybe the third eye-the pineal gland does this as it is said, that is our soul...our consciousness, our entity takes form. Thinking that there is nothing after death is such a sad thought to me. But existing in another realm or higher consciousness after we die makes me so fascinated. God may not be God as most people religiously think. It's a force. It's the creative force that binds the universe that manifests in our bodies of conscious.ness. We are not meant to have the complete explanation. It is far beyond the capacity of our brain to understand. We just have to know that there are pretty special forces at work in each of us and do right by everyone in love. If we life in love we vibrate a certain way and our DNA gets marked. Our lives will reflect and upon death our dna code will be read-our book of life. If we live the opposite of love, fear, our dna gets marked that way thru the bad vibrations and again the code will be read. If we do it right, we get a pass. If we do it wrong...errrr! reject and start over try again...reincarnation...Heaven and hell. It's like heaven is the other realm, hell is reincarnation to Earth to try again. Think of all the pain we endure in our life. Is that not hell? It's conscious. I dont think that in heaven there can be consciousness and so no pain. Im just saying Heaven and Hell for lack of better words, not in trying to be religious just like when you made up that one word but I still got the point. That's all the ticket to Christ consciousness. It's said to be the only way. And that does not mean anything to do with Jesus of Nazareth.

Forgive me. Maybe you can explain how we "know knowledge and consciousness"?
I'm sorry, but Descartes was wrong. The soul is not in the pineal gland. You can remove it from an individuals brain and that person will continue to exist.
Can you clarify "put into consciousness"? I'm convinced at this point in my life that as Daniel Dennett put it, "consciousness is an illusion by the brain for the brain".
People would be a lot happier if they didn't try to change the very things that make so special. It IS temporary and it is so much better this way. I'm happy with this life, I don't fear death. Many people don't understand this because they've been taught that it would be horrible if there was no afterlife.

Doing what's right by others is for the morally weak. I'd rather some people do what was right by others or follow a list of laws, but I and many others do not need that in our lives because we take an active look into morality and ethics and strive to understand what matters, what's right, what's wrong and why. I do what I think is right and I strive to be honest, frank, and considerate of nearly everyone. For the most part though, there is a concensus about what is right and wrong, but the concensus isn't always correct.

Well, if there is no consciousness in heaven and no consciousness in death (with no afterlife)... what's the difference? You've lost me on the DNA thing.

I don't believe there is such a thing as free will. I guess I just threw it in there because you and someone else asked about my beliefs.

You're are interested, not sure I understand them and I'm not sure that they really follow. I think you might be basing some of your premises on false information. I'm not sure how a genetic/chemical strand (not very familiar with biology) such as DNA gets marked by a higher being or even why that being would care.

Bumpity Bump

Zaehet Strife said:

Sorry bud... Existential Nihilist here.

Click to expand...

stoned cockatoo said:

I'm a retard

Click to expand...

Do Buddhist hillbillies believe in reintarnation? cn

Chartreuse Spruce said:

Wow guy. you are MY guy! I have felt and spoke these very things. I thought I was alone and no one can connect with me on this one in my peer group or my family. Whew. Spinozist? Pantheist? And I was reading your other thread about this and thought to myself the very same thing you mentioned above. That you substitute God for the word eternam. but that God means a different thing to you. God to me is DNA. It's the eternam; DNA; the double helix; the force of the universe. Ok, so one thing I just saw too...you don't believe we have a soul. I am perplexed every day by these things we are talking about here and ask for answers in prayer. I can't be atheist. I don't want to be. It sounds like that might be the fine line...the fact of believing in the soul. If I know everything you say is true, but choose to believe something entirely different about the soul, am I an atheist? I was with you entirely except the atheist part. Can you maybe shed some light as to how an atheist can not find God when knowing how amazing our bodies are. How can a brain just happen? All other life is easier explained...but not our brains and our development.

Click to expand...

Meh, our bodies aren't particularly well 'designed' -

[video=youtube;4238NN8HMgQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4238NN8HMgQ[/video]

cannabineer said:

Do Buddhist hillbillies believe in reintarnation? cn

Click to expand...

it would make no sense to assume otherwise would it?

NietzscheKeen said:

Forgive me. Maybe you can explain how we "know knowledge and consciousness"?
I'm sorry, but Descartes was wrong. The soul is not in the pineal gland. You can remove it from an individuals brain and that person will continue to exist.
Can you clarify "put into consciousness"? I'm convinced at this point in my life that as Daniel Dennett put it, "consciousness is an illusion by the brain for the brain".
People would be a lot happier if they didn't try to change the very things that make so special. It IS temporary and it is so much better this way. I'm happy with this life, I don't fear death. Many people don't understand this because they've been taught that it would be horrible if there was no afterlife.

Doing what's right by others is for the morally weak. I'd rather some people do what was right by others or follow a list of laws, but I and many others do not need that in our lives because we take an active look into morality and ethics and strive to understand what matters, what's right, what's wrong and why. I do what I think is right and I strive to be honest, frank, and considerate of nearly everyone. For the most part though, there is a concensus about what is right and wrong, but the concensus isn't always correct.

Well, if there is no consciousness in heaven and no consciousness in death (with no afterlife)... what's the difference? You've lost me on the DNA thing.

I don't believe there is such a thing as free will. I guess I just threw it in there because you and someone else asked about my beliefs.

You're are interested, not sure I understand them and I'm not sure that they really follow. I think you might be basing some of your premises on false information. I'm not sure how a genetic/chemical strand (not very familiar with biology) such as DNA gets marked by a higher being or even why that being would care.

Click to expand...

oh my where to start...shit...ok. Something tangible. I need tangible words. Meaning...let's take free will for example. That is a thing. It means making conscious decisions one way or another for a purpose or no reason at all. How can you deny that? It is what it is. There is no question that we are able to decide for ourselves our own destiny. Now you speak of Dennett and are saying consciousness is an illusion by the brain for the brain". What is that? It's not tangible...there's nothing there. It says nothing. It is an opinion. And I have never heard of Descartes. But you can't possible say that about the pineal gland with certainty unless you are GOD. That is an unknown. There is much we do know about that little gland and do not underestimate it's power over our whole system. I'm not saying it is a soul portal, I say that is suggested. I am not saying our hearts would not beat if it were gone. But we are loosing it because we are not using it. anyway...on to try and explain my speaking of love marking our DNA...a new concept...

...ok. Thanks.

NietzscheKeen said:

...ok. Thanks.

Click to expand...

I must have the super giggles because even that was funny. just an ok?! lol. I have laughed more with this forum in one day than I have in the last 3 months. So to answer you, it's great here!

Tyson is hilarious. Good points, some can be countered. Most of our assumptions about life is basically humans taking themselves too serious believing the Earth is ours.

Nah Neer, we tend to look on the bright side of things.

Also, here is a thing or two about Descartes that none of you have probably ever heard about;

In order to establish that his beliefs have stability and endurance, which Descartes takes to be two important marks of knowledge, he uses what is known as "The Method of Doubt". This starts with the meditator setting aside any belief who's truth can be doubted, whether slightly or completely. Descartes' aim is to show that, even if we start from the strongest possible skeptical position, doubting everything, we can still reach knowledge. The doubt is "hyperbolic" (exaggerated), and used only as a philosophical tool; as Descartes points out; "No sane person has ever doubted these things." <---(Which may explain the insanity i feel when contemplating the universe and existence)

Descartes starts by subjecting his beliefs to a series of increasingly rigorous skeptical arguments. Questioning how we can be sure of the existence of anything at all. Could it be that the world is just an illusion? We cannot trust our senses, as we have all been "deceived" by them at one time or another, and so we cannot rely on them as a sure footing for knowledge. Perhaps, he says, we are dreaming, and the apparently real world is no more than a dream world. He notes that this is possible as there are no sure signs between being awake or asleep. But even so, this situation would leave open the possibility that some truths, such as mathematical axioms, could be known, though not through the senses. But even these "truths", might not in fact be true, because God, who is all powerful, could deceive us at this level.

Even though we believe that God is good, it is possible, that he made us in such a way that we are prone to errors in our reasoning. Or perhaps there is no God; in which case we are even more likely to be imperfect beings (having arisen only by chance) that are capable of being deceived all the time.

Having reached a position in which there seems to be nothing at all of which he can be certain, Descartes then devises a vivid tool to help him to avoid slipping back in to preconceived opinion; He supposes that there is a powerful and evil demon that can deceive him about anything. When he finds himself considering a belief, he can ask; "Could the demon be making me believe this even though it was false?" And if the answer is yes, he must set aside the belief as open to doubt.

At this point, it seems as though Descartes has put himself into an impossible position- nothing seems beyond doubt, so he has no solid ground on which to stand. He describes himself as feeling helplessly tumbled around in a whirlpool of universal doubt, unable to find his footing. Skepticism seems to have made it impossible for him to even begin his journey back to dissimulated knowledge and truth...

I think everyone should read... really read Descartes Meditations of First Philosophy. It really can be a mind F**k, if you read it actively and with an open mind.

Genesisgrower said:

Tyson is hilarious. Good points, some can be countered. Most of our assumptions about life is basically humans taking themselves too serious believing the Earth is ours.

Click to expand...

Love your name! Genesis is my FAVORITE book and I luuuuuv to talk about it. Tyson? Who's that NeechyKeeny's real name?

NietzscheKeen said:

I think everyone should read... really read Descartes Meditations of First Philosophy. It really can be a mind F**k, if you read it actively and with an open mind.

Click to expand...

I love a mind fuck and I never get one!

You don't ever get one? Then you must be doing SOMETHING wrong...
Check out that book. It might change the WAY you think about things.
No, Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Look him up on youtube. I love listening to him, he's every intelligent, charismatic, and witty.

Chartreuse Spruce said:

I love a mind fuck and I never get one!

Click to expand...

If you never get a mind=blown... you aren't doing it right... imo

Tyson is the new Sagan. Both are amazingly interesting people.

Chartreuse Spruce said:

Love your name! Genesis is my FAVORITE book and I luuuuuv to talk about it. Tyson? Who's that NeechyKeeny's real name?

Click to expand...

No Tyson is in the video on the previous page. Basically a rocket scientist who can make stupid people like me understand the Universe. Genesis is a cool book, but I prefer the acquired definition of genesis, new beginnings.

When it comes to readings, I love the crazy stuff found in the Dead Sea scrolls. Man that stuff is cra!