Are Public Schools Harming OUR kids?!!

Public schools rely upon forced funding. That's not something I can support.

Public schools may teach some useful things, but the ahem "resources" of the school being derived in an extractive and forceful way taints much of their rhetoric.
 
My son was going to public school, the same school I attended 25 years earlier. We had excellent teachers there who really knew their jobs and were dedicated to our getting an education back then. In 6th grade I had algebra and began learning chemistry. In the 7th grade my son was just learning division and had no knowledge of what chemical elements even were. So I met with the principal and teachers, I was sorely dissapointed, this was more like a jail than a school. After speaking with the school board members and other parents I decided to enroll him in a private school. In a short time he was really getting a good education and interested in learning the subjects. His grades were always good, but that is no real way to measure the education he was getting. A childs education is not just the responsibility of the school system. If I just dropped him off there and expected him to get a good education without helping with his homework and talking to him about the subjects, having him show me in his schoolbooks where he was, he would have not gotten much out of it at all. I got the impression from the public school - teachers and staff, that they really weren't interested in teaching these kids either from frustration or laziness I dont know. 30 plus students per teacher is too much, too many kids for one person to keep track of. I couldn't do it. His class in private school was half the size and his teachers all have assistants. All I know is in private school he is getting a good education and in public school he was not. My property taxes are high because of the school district and now I pay thousands more for my childs education. However his education is of great value to me and whats a good education worth anyway?
 
Padawanbater2 said:


Your assumption that someone without kids wouldn't give the policy of public education much thought is not well thought out. We interact with people every single day, the more intelligent someone is, the better, right? I can think of a billion different things that would change for the better if more people were simply smarter. Public education should be much more important to people, but when was the last time you heard a crazy person admit they were crazy... (stupid people don't think they're stupid)

My guess would be homes were much more conservative before the economic success of the 50's. They didn't require (not to mention the regulations that weren't in place until workers/womens movements) women to work to pay the bills. While homes got bigger, wages remained stagnant for the lower-middle class. Now we're left with the result of a financial crisis with incredibly high costs of living and low wages.

And about the guns, stupid kids with access to guns shoot up schools often enough that it requires some kind of regulation, even you have to admit that.
Click to expand...

The latter thing only started happening when kids started getting prescribed dangerous prescription drugs for conditions they do nothing to help. Which, by the way, is not a coincidence at all.

As far as public education making people smarter... hypothetically it can be used for this purpose. Historically it isn't typically used for this purpose as much as it is to manipulate populations. There's a pretty good argument in favor of private and state funded education given the interests can be quite varied and it keeps ideas diverse (as well as having a much closer connection to the electorate or customer). I don't really see any good argument in favor of huge socialist programs with tremendously centralized power as these are almost always abused (all through history) or are run poorly because large monolithic organizations with little competition typically don't respond well to change.

As far as why we have 2 people working in most families now, the answer for this is rather complicated and not really all that PC. It's a complex issue that you seem to be trying to greatly oversimplify. Certainly the feminist movement had a role, but also the financial system as well. Not that I have issue with women being bread winners, I really don't, however the effect the movement had on the supply of workers is pretty undeniable. This has an effect of driving down wages practically speaking. Of course real wages have been declining as well, in large part due to the inflationary monetary system.

And you talk about the wealth of the 50's and how things have changed. Why? Shouldn't everyone be benefiting from this wealth? It doesn't happen that way and people blame capitalism. But that's a really short sighted cop out answer typical of students from the current education system. So in summation, I think it is very clear the public education system is doing much harm. I also think it's quite clear that is the intent.

It also works as a tool to get kids to bow to authority figures. See how bullying is dealt with these days? Run to the teacher/principle whatever. Oh, school lock down! Oh, we're doing random searches. And yes, we're gonna have to install metal detectors because of all those violent kids that are addicted to prescription drugs and because of the gangs and the violence they bring due to the black markets we create with our war on drugs (knowingly).
 
OGEvilgenius said:
The latter thing only started happening when kids started getting prescribed dangerous prescription drugs for conditions they do nothing to help. Which, by the way, is not a coincidence at all.
Click to expand...

Are you saying most if not all school shootings are the result of intoxicated kids on prescription medications?

Before you mentioned it I hadn't considered it, but I agree with you, prescription medications definitely play a role. I think the only school shooting I can think of off the top of my head where I never heard a word about the kid being on meds was Virginia Tech.

But regardless, here we are, a nation of hopped up kids with access to weapons. Do you think that's something that should be regulated on school grounds?

OGEvilgenius said:
As far as public education making people smarter... hypothetically it can be used for this purpose. Historically it isn't typically used for this purpose as much as it is to manipulate populations. There's a pretty good argument in favor of private and state funded education given the interests can be quite varied and it keeps ideas diverse (as well as having a much closer connection to the electorate or customer). I don't really see any good argument in favor of huge socialist programs with tremendously centralized power as these are almost always abused (all through history) or are run poorly because large monolithic organizations with little competition typically don't respond well to change.
Click to expand...

Again, I think we're both pretty much in agreement. Rage Against the Machine has a good song called Take the Power Back with a lyric that explains this pretty well;

The present curriculum
I put my fist in 'em
Eurocentric every last one of 'em
See right through the red, white and blue disguise
With lecture I puncture the structure of lies
Installed in our minds and attempting
To hold us back
We've got to take it back

Though it can be (and pretty much has been by special interest groups) co opted to manipulate the population, I think it's still much better than the available alternative. I'm not comfortable letting 90% of the inhabitants of the country teach their own kids basic education. I think that would lead to much worse situations. Also consider you (I'm assuming) and me and a lot of people like us are products of the public education system, yet here we are talking about it's obvious flaws. Shit like this reminds me of The Matrix... how did your red pill taste?
 
Padawanbater2 said:
Shit like this reminds me of The Matrix... how did your red pill taste?
Click to expand...

Bitter, but I think you miss the point of that story. It's about control. Whether it's the machine world of The Matrix or an over bloated, over bearing and over intrusive bureaucracy that is kept in place by bought and paid for politicians... you are under control.
 
A breif History: Compulsory Education, according to Wikipedia.

com·pul·so·ry
 /kəmˈpʌlsəri/ Spelled [kuhm-puhl-suh-ree] adjective, noun, plural com·pul·so·ries.

adjective
1. required; mandatory; obligatory: compulsory education.
2. using compulsion; compelling; constraining: compulsory measures to control rioting.
noun
3. something, as an athletic feat, that must be performed or completed as part of a contest or competition: The ice skater received a higher score on the compulsories than on her freestyle performance.


Compulsory education refers to a period of education that is required of every person.


Antiquity to Medieval Era

Although Plato's The Republic is credited with having popularized the concept of compulsory education in Western intellectual thought, every parent in Judea since ancient times was required to teach their children at least informally. Over the centuries, as cities, towns and villages developed, a class of teachers called Rabbis evolved. According to the Talmud (tractate Bava Bathra 21a), which praises the sage Joshua ben Gamla with the institution of formal Jewish education in the 1st century AD, Ben Gamla instituted schools in every town and made formal education compulsory from the age of 6 or 7.
The Aztecs (AD 1325-1521) had one of the first compulsory educational systems. All male children were required to attend school until the age of 16.

Early Modern Era

During the Reformation in 1524, Martin Luther advocated compulsory schooling so that all parishioners would be able to read the Bible themselves, and Strasbourg—then a free city of the Holy Roman Empire—passed accordant legislation in 1598.
In Scotland, the Reformation prompted the establishment of the first national compulsory system of education. The Education Act of 1496 had obliged the children of noblemen and freeholders to attend school, but the School Establishment Act of 1616 commanded every parish with the means to establish a school paid for by parishioners. The Parliament of Scotland confirmed this with the Education Act of 1633 and created a local land-based tax to provide the required funding. The required majority support of parishioners, however, provided a tax evasion loophole which heralded the Education Act of 1646. The turmoil of the age meant that in 1661 there was a temporary reversion to the less compulsory 1633 position. However, in 1696 a new Act re-established the compulsory provision of a school in every parish with a system of fines, sequestration, and direct government implementation as a means of enforcement where required.
In Austria, mandatory primary education was introduced by Empress Maria Theresa in 1774.
Prussia can claim the first modern compulsory system that was widely recognised and copied. It was introduced by decree of Frederick the Great in 1763-5 and was later expanded in the 19th century. This provided a working model for other states to copy; the clearest example of direct copying is probably Japan in the period of the Meiji Restoration. Prussia introduced this model of education so as to produce more obedient soldiers and serfs.

Modern Era

Compulsory school attendance on this model gradually spread to other countries, reaching the American State of Massachusetts in 1852, and spreading to other states until, in 1917, Mississippi was the last state to enact a compulsory attendance law. Massachusetts had originally enacted the first compulsory education law in the American colonies in 1647.

In 1852, the Massachusetts General Court passed a law requiring every town to create and operate a grammar school. Fines were imposed on parents who did not send their children to school and the government took the power to take children away from their parents and apprentice them to others if government officials decided that the parents were "unfit to have the children educated properly".
Compulsory education had not been part of early American society; which relied instead on church-run private schools that mostly charged tuition. The spread of compulsory attendance in the Massachusetts tradition throughout America, especially for Native Americans, has been credited to General Richard Henry Pratt. Pratt used techniques developed on Native Americans in a prisoner of war camp in Fort Marion, Augustine, Florida, to force demographic minorities across America into government schools. His prototype was the Carlisle School in Pennsylvania.
One of the last areas in Europe to adopt a compulsory system was England and Wales, where the Elementary Education Act of 1870 paved the way by establishing school boards to set up schools in any places that did not have adequate provision. Attendance was made compulsory until age 10 in 1880.

Current status by country

Some kind of education is compulsory to all people in most countries, but different localities vary in how many years or grades of education they require. Due to population growth and the proliferation of compulsory education, UNESCO has calculated that in the next 30 years more people will receive formal education than in all of human history thus far. It is usually possible in many countries for parents to provide the required education for their children by some other means, such as homeschooling, although this is typically monitored for adherence to national standards.

Australia

Education is compulsory between the ages of 5 to 17 in every state and territory in Australia. However, this ruling may be waived if the student has decided to pursue full time employment or full-time education at other such institution (e.g. TAFE- Technical And Further Education).

Canada

Education is compulsory between ages 6 to 16 in every province in Canada, except for Ontario and New Brunswick, where the compulsory age is 18. In some provinces, early leaving exemptions can be granted under certain circumstances at 14.

China
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH]Age
[/TH]
[TH]Education
[/TH]
[TH]Compulsory
[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15-18
[/TD]
[TD]Senior high school (middle school)
or
Vocational school
[/TD]
[TD]No
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12-15
[/TD]
[TD]Junior middle school
[/TD]
[TD]Yes
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6-12
[/TD]
[TD]Primary school
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Egypt

Education is compulsory in Egypt between ages 6 to 14.

Finland

In Finland, school starts at the age of seven (± 1 year, negotiable), and ends after graduation from comprehensive school at the age of fifteen or sixteen, or at least after nine school years.

France

Education is compulsory between ages 6 to 16.

Germany

In Education in Germany, school attendance is compulsory for 9 to 10 years (age 6 to 16) though the exact time varies between the states.

Hong Kong, China

There is a nine-year compulsory education in Hong Kong. 6 years of primary education and 3 years of junior secondary education were made compulsory in 1971 and 1978 respectively.

India

The Indian parliament passed The Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education Act in August 2009, making education free and compulsory for children between 6 and 14.

Mexico

In Mexico, schooling is required through lower secondary school only.

Poland

In Poland compulsory education ends at the age of 18. It usually starts when children are 6 years old and ends after 12 years of learning (usually in a high school). Contemporary Polish law distinguishes between compulsory school (obowiązek szkolny) and compulsory education (obowiązek nauki).
First idea of compulsory education was put forward by Andrzej Frycz Modrzewski in 1555. After the partitions of Poland, compulsory education was introduced by Prussian authorities in Polish provinces which belonged to Prussia (1825), and Austrian authorities in Galicia (1873). In the Russian Empire compulsory education did not exist. As a result, in 1921, after Poland regained independence, one-third of the population of the Second Polish Republic was illiterate. Illiteracy was very high in the east, and almost non-existent in western provinces. Compulsory education in Poland was introduced by a decree in February 1919. It covered all kids aged 7 to 14. At the beginning, however, newly created Polish state faced several problems in this field - lack of qualified teachers, lack of buildings and funds. After World War Two, compulsory education remained as one of priorities of the state. In 1978, only 1,2% of Polish population was illiterate.

Russia

The project of the Compulsory Primary Education Act was discussed in the Russian Empire from 1910, however in June 1912 it was rejected. In the first years of the Soviet Russia a massive Likbez campaign of eradication of illiteracy began, and later the primary education became compulsory. The 1936 Soviet Constitution declared the free education among the other social and economic rights of the citizen.
Eleven-year secondary education in Russian is compulsory since September 1, 2007. Until 2007, it was limited to nine years with grades 10-11 optional; federal subjects of Russia could enforce higher compulsory standard through local legislation within the eleven–year federal program. Moscow enacted compulsory eleven–year education in 2005, similar legislation existed in Altai Krai, Sakha and Tyumen Oblast. A student of 15 to 18 years of age may drop out of school with approval of his/her parent and local authorities, and without their consent upon reaching age of 18. Expulsion from school for multiple violations disrupting school life is possible starting at the age of 15.

Slovenia

Compulsory education in Slovenia begins at the age of five and extends until the age of fourteen. After having attended primary school for nine years, pupils customarily continue to pursue some kind of secondary education (vocational schools, technical schools or gymnasiums).

Singapore

In Singapore, the Compulsory Education Act (Cap 51) was passed by parliament on 9 October 2000 and was assented to the President on 16 October 2000. The statute provides for compulsory primary education for students in Singapore. In accordance to the Act, a child is of an age of compulsory education is one who is above the age of 6 years and has not reach the age of 15 years. A child of compulsory school age born after 1 January 1996, and who is a Singapore citizen residing in Singapore must attend a national primary school regularly with the exception of the child being exempted from compulsory education, e.g. a child with special needs and a child receiving home-schooling.
Under the Compulsory Education Act (Cap 51), a child who fails to attend regularly as a student of a national primary school or a designated school/be home-schooled (where exemption is granted), the parents or guardian may be guilty of an offence under the Act. The penalties provided in the Act for a person to be convicted for the offence are a fine not exceeding S$5,000, or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months, or both.

Taiwan (Republic of China)

Main article: :zh:台灣九年國民義務教育#法令研訂
Compulsory education was extended from six years to nine years in 1968 in the Republic of China, effective in Taiwan (both Taipei City and Taiwan Province (which then covered Kaohsiung City)), Kinmen County and Lienchiang County. 10th to 12th grade is projected to be free and guaranteed (but not compulsory) in 2013.

United Kingdom

Main article: History of education in England
The Elementary Education Act 1870, also known as Forster's Education Act created the concept of compulsory education for children under thirteen. Ten years after the Elementary Education Act 1880 insisted on compulsory attendance from 5–10 years.
Now in the United Kingdom compulsory education begins between four and a half and five and a half; since 1972 it has ended at the age of 16. But from 2013 compulsory education, be it traditional classroom education or training is planned to be raised to the age of 17, and from 2015 to the age of 18.

United States

Main article: History of education in the United States
School attendance is compulsory for most but not all children in the United States, but the age range for which school attendance is required varies from state to state. It begins between the ages of five and eight and ends between age sixteen and eighteen. Some states allow students to leave school between 14–17 with parental permission, before finishing high school; other states require students to stay in school until age 18. Many states do however allow gifted and talented students to accelerate their education so as to finish all educational requirements early.
The State of New Hampshire voted into law HB 542 the repealing of compulsory curriculum in public schools. Governor Lynch initially issued a veto but it was overidden by both the New Hampshire House and Senate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_education

:peace::leaf:
 
The conditioning of modern American society began with John Dewey, a psychologist, a Fabian socialist, and the "Father of Progressive education." Dewey used psycholgy developed by Wilhelm Wundt, and believed through a stimulus-response approach (like Pavlov) students could be conditioned for a new social order.
Charlotte Iserbyt
The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America

"I believe that education is a regulation of the process of coming to share in the social consciousness; and that the adjustment of the individual activity on the basis of this social consciousness is the only sure method of social reconstruction."
---John Dewey

[video=youtube;iFlvkwXCQco]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFlvkwXCQco[/video]


"If we could first know where we are, and whither we are tending, we could then better judge what to do, and how to do it."

"He who molds the public sentiment... makes statutes and decisions possible or impossible to make."

"The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next."

"The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly."

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it."

"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves."

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."

"Public sentiment is everything. With public sentiment, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed."

---Abraham Lincoln

:peace::leaf:
 
Padawanbater2 said:


But regardless, here we are, a nation of hopped up kids with access to weapons. Do you think that's something that should be regulated on school grounds?



Again, I think we're both pretty much in agreement. Rage Against the Machine has a good song called Take the Power Back with a lyric that explains this pretty well;

The present curriculum
I put my fist in 'em
Eurocentric every last one of 'em
See right through the red, white and blue disguise
With lecture I puncture the structure of lies
Installed in our minds and attempting
To hold us back
We've got to take it back

Though it can be (and pretty much has been by special interest groups) co opted to manipulate the population, I think it's still much better than the available alternative. I'm not comfortable letting 90% of the inhabitants of the country teach their own kids basic education. I think that would lead to much worse situations. Also consider you (I'm assuming) and me and a lot of people like us are products of the public education system, yet here we are talking about it's obvious flaws. Shit like this reminds me of The Matrix... how did your red pill taste?
Click to expand...

Yea, let's listen to the most Socialist band ever. Here's another lyric of theirs:

Now i'm rollin' down Rodeo with a SHOTGUN
These people aint seen a brown man since their grandparents bought one (let's kill some whities because of their ancestors)


Here's my fovorite, A line from Train Of Consenquences from Megadeth:

Now i'm doin' you a favor
As I'm takin' all your money!


I bet you agree with that one too!
 
Padawanbater2 said:
Or Neo-Nazi's!

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/ne...-nazi-kills-four-himself-in-shooting-rampage/

"When Ready ran for Mesa City Council in 2006, he made headlines that March when he fired a pistol at a Latino man armed with a BB gun, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. His campaign came to an end, after it came to light that Ready had been discharged from Marine Corps after a court martial."
​
Click to expand...

that happened less than a mile from where i used to live. something definitely fucked up with AZ, glad i left.
 
Moses Mobetta said:
My son was going to public school, the same school I attended 25 years earlier. We had excellent teachers there who really knew their jobs and were dedicated to our getting an education back then. In 6th grade I had algebra and began learning chemistry. In the 7th grade my son was just learning division and had no knowledge of what chemical elements even were. So I met with the principal and teachers, I was sorely dissapointed, this was more like a jail than a school. After speaking with the school board members and other parents I decided to enroll him in a private school. In a short time he was really getting a good education and interested in learning the subjects. His grades were always good, but that is no real way to measure the education he was getting. A childs education is not just the responsibility of the school system. If I just dropped him off there and expected him to get a good education without helping with his homework and talking to him about the subjects, having him show me in his schoolbooks where he was, he would have not gotten much out of it at all. I got the impression from the public school - teachers and staff, that they really weren't interested in teaching these kids either from frustration or laziness I dont know. 30 plus students per teacher is too much, too many kids for one person to keep track of. I couldn't do it. His class in private school was half the size and his teachers all have assistants. All I know is in private school he is getting a good education and in public school he was not. My property taxes are high because of the school district and now I pay thousands more for my childs education. However his education is of great value to me and whats a good education worth anyway?
Click to expand...

OK, now what if there were no private schools, what would you have done? I venture the same as all the other parents in your community who care and are able to pay the private tuition, Organize and change the public system???
 
MellowFarmer said:
OK, now what if there were no private schools, what would you have done? I venture the same as all the other parents in your community who care and are able to pay the private tuition, Organize and change the public system???
Click to expand...

I don't think so. The whole schooling system is wrong. It goes against how humans learn. I support almost the notion of unschooling, but not quite.
 
Canna Sylvan said:
I don't think so. The whole schooling system is wrong. It goes against how humans learn. I support almost the notion of unschooling, but not quite.
Click to expand...
If I have kids ever, they will be taught by me and socialized through sports etc. However, I do believe if the community values a good true education, then it is possible. Moses said he got a great education 25 years ago and my guess is it is because communities were smaller and more tight knit then. I got a stellar if not completely accurate(in the subjective studies) education myself 18 years ago but my town is still circa 1950, the teachers were our friends' parents and our parents' friends. Everyone keeps very busy maling sure everyone else is doing thier job and no one is shy to condemn... not a fun place to live but a top notch, prep school quality education due to communtity involvement.
 
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