Bagseed & MiracleGro Tomato ("the cheapsta'")

az2000 said:

Take a look at @unwine99's "no-cook" organic soil. (Revised here.). That looks simple and close to water-only. He might do a tea or two. I'd like to try a water-only organic soil without doing the longer-term soil preparation.

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I'm glad you posted this link. I'm currently working on a compost pile as well for spring but I want to flower this new crop sprouting now around the first or second week of February so I was gonna use this recipe:

1/4 FFOF
1/4 FFLW
1/4 Espoma potting mix(worm castings)
1/4 aeration

As for food I have kelp, bone, blood, and oyster shells along with azomite and greensand. I'm looking for a replacement for the blood and bone meal and I'll just use those for my outdoor garden. I'm gonna pick up the soil sometime this week so any recommendations on other ingredients I should get would be appreciated. As per greasemonkeyman's recommendation, I'm searching for rabbit manure in my area as a supplement for blood meal.

Jan 3 (Day 39)
Twelfth feeding exactly 72 hours after the previous. 3.7g/gal, 490ppm measured (150 water + 340 nutrients). I think the PPMs vary a little between feedings because I fill a bucket to a line I marked for "1 gallon." I'm not very precise. (If it's a couple cups over, the PPMs go down.). Runoff: 1000ppm.

(The runoff ppm leads me to believe I could be feeding 20% stronger, or less runoff. I should try less runoff. I like how it's growing and don't want to overfeed/burn by increasing strength. I mix 1 gallon and that works out perfectly with this #2 container. I have about 20% runoff which I am accustomed to with my Grow More Sea Grow nutrients. Maybe the next feeding I'll pour out the remaining nutrient mix after getting a little runoff. See how the salts accumulate in the soil.).

This is what the plant looked like before feeding.


In the top-down shot you can see the light bleaching from 3-4 days ago. (It looks like Mg deficiency, but it's only those leaves. Faded blotches between the veins.). Those leaves are larger now. I haven't noticed any more stress. I've been keeping the light 10-12" above. Nothing has changed with the the light, but this is what the plant looks like now, proportional to the light:


The first serrated leaves (seen in the first post, days 3 through 9) are yellowing and dying. The cotyldons (first, round leaves) yellowed and died a week or two ago. I should have taken a picture.


(That's weird how the skin of the stalk stops above the soil. I didn't notice that until I looked at the image.).

Sex
I've still been worried it's a male because I could never figure out what that first thread was. And then the other shot which looked like it might be pistils could be hairs (at that magnification). But, I'm seeing something today (third day of 12/12):


That's the same calyx shot from both sides. That's the 7th node. I think the same node I was looking at before. But, I've lost track.

One node above, I see this (both sides of same calyx):


The calyxes are still very small. I think those are pistils. But, considering how large ordinary hair looks like, it's hard to say. But, it has that translucent look.

congratulations, i think you have a daughter

**edit: didnt you say this came from a hermie? If so then yes, you will have a female. But it will herm out easily.

Jan 4 (Day 40)
N Toxicity

I've been seeing some N toxicity which seems really strange considering the NPK ratio is low N for veg (1-1-1.2). Another grower is using MiracleGro Tomato in a small hydro setup. He's having the same curl-down edges. (He has had some other issues, like pH problems due to not having a pH pen -- which is required for hydro. I don't pH the nutrients in soil.).

I thought I would post some pictures of mine. This is the same leaf from different angles. It's very curled further back near the stem. That's why it stands out to me as the worst example. I noticed it a week or two ago when it was a younger leaf.


Here's another leaf which looks more typical (tip pointing down, edges curled down a little)


This seems to exist at a certain stage of growth. I don't see it much on the lower leaves. It's in the halfway-up to 3/4 up (area of the plant).

Since the fertilizer's N is so low, I can only assume it's overfeeding. But, the salt isn't building up in the soil. (Maybe it's related to 80% of Tomato's N coming from urea.). I should have reduced the nutrient strength a week or two ago. I might do that now, but since it's going into flower... I don't know. I think it might be better not to mess with it because it make show P deficiency. If I reduce strength now, I won't know if I contributed to that. But, if I grew this again, it would be worth feeding less to see how it compares. Maybe 3.2g/gal. (I would feed a bit heavier starting, then stop at 3.0-3.4g/gal.).

I almost used All Purpose (NPK ratio 3-1-2). That's 80% urea too. It seems like that would have been too much N.

Jan 5 (Day 41)
Sex. It's confirmed.


Lights
I added a Cree 18w PAR38 flood to the top, and moved the 10w GE BrightStik (with plastic cap removed) from the side to the top.


I'm running four Cree 9.5w cools (5k) on the side, two Cree 18w PAR38s (3k) on top. One 10w GE BrightStik (cap removed) cool (5k) on top. That's 84w total. (21/w sq ft.). I think this is a bit too much light for transition. But, I'm sweating over 4-5w/sq ft. It's nothing.

In mid flower I'll have four PAR38s on top for a total 110w (27.5w/sq ft).

I made the "fixture" on top. It's 1/2" PVC pipe and allows me to reuse the slip-on light mounts I use on the legs. I'll document that in my blog area and add a link in a future post.

Feed
The container is already light. I don't think it will make it another 18-20 hours. I'll probably have to lightly water before lights out, then the rest during lights on. Update tommorrow. (I'm going to feed 3.4g/gal since it seems N toxic. (That's not much less. But, a little. I should have gone weaker before. I'm nervous about going too weak now during transition.).

Jan 6 (Day 42)
Thirteenth feeding. 3.5g/gal. 450ppm measured (150 water + 300). Runoff: 1100ppm. I fed a little lighter because of the N-toxicity mentioned two days ago. And, I fed with 5% runoff (much less than I normally do).

Jan 8 (Day 44)
Fourteenth feeding. 3.2g/gal. 475ppm (oops[1]) measured (140 water + 335). Runoff: 1030ppm. I fed enough for about 10% runoff (less than I normally do).

[1] I intended to feed even lighter than two days ago. (@DarkWizard021 said he fed 3g/gal when he used MG Tomato.). I must've misread the scale, or missed the "gallon" line on my bucket again. I'll go lower next time. I expected it to be around 425ppm).

Before feeding, the plant looked like this:


The light is the same as described on Day 41. But, I added a compact UVB 10 bulb in the top left.


It comes on for 2 hours during lights-on. (15, 30, 30, 30, 15min). It's not very much. I don't think these LED lightbulbs generate trics as much as I'd like. It seems like this helps. I'll reduce it to 1 hour by mid flower, then stop by late flower. It seems like running it in late flower causes trichs to turn amber sooner. I try to go sparing with it.

Jan 9 (Day 45)
LST. The plant's a little stretchier than I'm accustomed to. It stretched a little in early veg before I had enough cool light. And, it seems a little stretchy again. It could be due to using too much warm light too soon. I bent the main stem to make the canopy flatter:


I like to do a little LST. The bent/tortured branches seem to produce the best buds. I don't shy away from it, anyway. This one took it very well. I bent it a lot in one try. (Sometimes they snap. This one folded and is staying in position.).

Jan 10 (Day 46)
Fifteenth feeding. 3.0g/gal. 430ppm measured (150 water + 280). Runoff: 1280ppm.

This is the lowest strength I've fed in veg. (I think I did something wrong Day 42. I don't think that was 3.5g. I think 300-330ppm is good.). The runoff ppm may have risen because I watered for less runoff the previous two waterings (and this one was about 10%).

The plant looked like this before feeding:


I'm still using the same light described Day 41 (21w/sq ft). I'm going to add another 10w (23.5w/sq ft) or 18w (25.5w/sq ft) in a day or two.

Looking good. Thanks for all the good work.

Back when I was a kid growing in the piney woods, when there was rain expected, I sprinkled the regular MG right on the ground. I grew in trenches back then, and I would just put it on one side of the trench. If the rain didn't come and it was too strong, the roots could always grow the other way. I was a very poor kid, so I never used more than I thought was needed, but I didn't measure anything. I just eye-balled it.

Last year I used a little regular MG, as well as the liquid. I got a good deal on some of the Veg and Bloom food. I just squirted 5-10 seconds per five gallons, according to how many plants it was going on. {which was decided by the rain or lack there of} I might have used a little too much, but I got a late, late start, so I was trying to get as much growth as possible before they flowered.

I've used lights on pepper and tomato plants, but have never grown weed indoors. Your plant is looking very good for the infrastructure you have. Keep up the good work,

Larro

Jan 12 (Day 48 )
Sixteenth feeding. 3.0g/gal. 435 ppm measured (150 water + 285). Runoff: 1280ppm. 10% runoff.

I think 280-305 ppm is where I want to be. That's 3.0g to 3.3g/gal (0.81 to 0.89 teaspoon). That with less runoff should be ok. I usually do 20% runoff (and feed heavier). Letting the salt build up more in the soil should compensate for feeding less(?). The plant looked like this before feeding:


Yesterday I added another Cree 9.5w A19 cool, it's in the top left:


Now I'm running


That's 93.5w total. (23/w sq ft.). Pretty soon I will replace the two small lights on top with two more PAR38 floods. Or, I'm thinking about using splitters and flexible goosenecks to use 8 smaller lights on top for better coverage.

(Note: The photos aren't as good. My old camera died. It was 15 years old, but a good one. I used my phone this time.).

Flower her out.

theexpress said:

Flower her out.

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I should have announced it more clearly, but at the end of Dec. 31 (Day 36) I changed the lights to 12/12. So, it vegged 5 weeks, and it has been in flower for 12 days. The stretch has stopped. 3-4 short nodes have developed at the end of the growth shoots. A number of buds sites emerged from within the canopy. It looks like pistils will appear from those bud sites any day now. I see pistils on the lower bud sites.

I'm glad @GrowUrOwnDank talked me into not waiting another week. It got big. I'm sure I'll have to tie the colas to the stalk in mid-flower.

Morbid Angel said:

didnt you say this came from a hermie? If so then yes, you will have a female. But it will herm out easily.

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Yes, it was from heat stress I think. In the summer touch I 84-86F. I LSTed more branches yesterday and today, and kept bending the main cola which I LSTed 3 days ago. Every time I do it I worry it will hermie.

Larro Darro said:

but I didn't measure anything. I just eye-balled it.

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I don't think this has to be precise. I bet I could alternate 1/2 tsp/gal and 1 tsp/gal every feeding and it would come out perfect (average 3/4 tsp, which is about what I'm doing at 0.81 tsp). Nobody should be deterred by my weighing nutrients. In fact, considering how I'm not very precise about the volume of water I use, I should focus on ppms. I've been giving the grams I used as additional info.

But, for most people: it boils down to "feed 1/2 to 1tsp/gal, feed one then the other, alternating every watering. Feed enough volume for 10-20% runoff." That should work fine. (If someone had an actual 3/4tsp measuring spoon, that would be even better. But, I don't think it matters. The TDS meter would be better to have, especially to watch for salt buildup when getting less runoff.).

One thing I think I should have done differently is feed heavier earlier. Then stop at 3.0-3.2g/gal (0.81-0.89 tsp). It seemed N-deficient very early, then went N toxic. MG Tomato's N is 80% urea. It seems like it takes awhile for that to become available. I kind "overshot" it trying to green it up. I think feeding more sooner would have been good, but stop at 3/4tsp/gal sooner, maybe go to 7/8 tsp/gal.

Looks great. I do have a habit of outgrowing my space bro. And I often make the mistake of waiting to late to train or tie down as well. The last time I had the issue I broke the main stalk down low. I fixed it but, I could've avoided it had I started training sooner. Great thread bro. Some people think/say it can't be done. Heck I may go back to MG myself. I still use it with other stuff. Why not? Thanks for sharing.

Some strains can be finicky with N.

The girl I'm growing now has been dealing with N tox since I switched to flower. Which is very odd since I don't use veg nutes. She's getting 0-50-30 feed right now and still N toxing near the top.

Think from now on, I'm going to ditch the FFOF and just go back to Happy frog, much lighter, and I've never suffered N tox.

Jan 14 (Day 50)
Seventeenth feeding. Fed 2.9g/gal, 464ppm measured (168 water + 296). Runoff ppm: 1250ppm. 10% runoff.

The plant looked like this before watering:


Lighting
It has been exactly two weeks since switching to 12/12 (Jan 1). Yesterday I added another Cree 18w PAR38 floodlight (top left, behind the UVB bulb), and two 10w cool (top right, using a Y-splitter):


I had to use a socket extender (about 1" long) in order to use the Y-splitter. Those outdoor floodlight holders are deep.

The lighting now is:



I don't think this lighting will change. In the last two weeks I might replace the two cools (on top) with warm.

Keeping my eye on glued to this

Jan 16 (Day 52)
Eighteenth feeding. 3.2g/gal. 480ppm measured (150 water + 330). Runoff: 1350ppm. 10% runoff.

Jan 18 (Day 54)
Nineteenth feeding. 3.0g/gal. 453-468ppm measured (148 water + 305-320). Runoff: 1280ppm. 10% runoff.

This time I carefully measured 1 gallon in my bucket. So, the 305-320ppms from 3.0g/gal is correct. However, I mixed it 12 hours prior. When I mixed it, it added 320ppm. About 6 hours later it measured about 311ppm. (When I fed 12 hours later, 305ppms.).

I think the prior feed was like that too. The 330ppm was immediately after measuring. I think it was more like 320 when I fed. I didn't pay attention.

So, it seems like MG Tomato is 100-110ppm per gram. And, 3.0g is a "rounded" 3/4 tsp (0.81 tsp).

The plant looked like this before feeding:


The first set of fingered leaves are deteriorating as normal. They'll probably fall off in a week.


Those leaves were emerging on Day 4 and well-formed by Day 12. The first serrated leaves (the one that's not fingered) looked like this on Day 39, fell off (with a slight tug 3-4 days ago.).

A little porn:


I have LSTed the outer buds back into the canopy to try and keep them within a 2x2' space. But, the plant is still hanging into more of a 2.2x2.3 space. I may add another light to maintain my 25-30w/sq ft target in late flower.

Jan 20 (Day 56)
20th feeding. 3.0g/gal. 438ppm measured (143 water + 295). Runoff: 1350ppm. 10% runoff.

I reduced the UVB 10 (compact) bulb from 1.5 hours (15, 15, 30, 15, 15 min). I started to use it 2 hours per day on Day 44. I'll reduce it to 1 hour per day in a week or two. (I could probably use it for twice as long. Sometimes it seems like it causes the buds to ripen too fast. So, I try to err on the side of caution.).

Jan 22 (Day 58 )
21st feeding. 3.0g/gal. 450ppm measured (154 water + 296). Runoff: 1300ppm. 5% runoff.

I carefully measured the quantity of water these two feedings. 3.0g definitely produces 295-305ppm. It seems to be 20ppm higher immediately after mixing. A few hours later it is stable at 100ppm per gram.

The plant looked like this before feeding:


I see some trichomes forming on the leaves.

Nothing has changed with the lighting. I may add another bulb in a couple weeks.

Jan 24 (Day 60)
22nd feeding. 3.0g/gal. 452ppm measured (152 water + 300). Runoff: 1400. 10% runoff.

Jan 26 (Day 62)
23rd feeding. 3.0g/gal. 458ppm measured (152 water + 306). Runoff: 1300. 10% runoff.

The plant looked like this before feeding:


Lighting. I added a light to the center of the top-fixture. On Day 59 it was a 10w warm GE BrightStick. I felt like the buds stretched a little. So, I replaced it on Day 61 with a 14w cool Philips A19.



It's probably going to stay at this w/sq ft. But, I'll replace that top-center 14w with a 14.5w warm (2700k) eventually (or maybe I'll replace the two cools on the top-right).

The plant's a little large for 2x2'. The w/sq ft is probably closer to 28. That's one of the reasons I chose to add more light sooner.

Buds. This is the bud atop the main cola (near the center of the plant):


This is the bud closest to the front of the plant (in the canopy photo above).

This great stuff AZ, thank you for the awesome documentation of MG usage and pictures.

Hola, you helped me out a few days ago and linked this grow . I read your blog on household LED bulbs and can't quite wrap my head around this point made -

"These come in 2850K (warm) and 5000K (daylight). In veg, use 1:3 to 1:4 ratio (warm:daylight. Don't add the warm until you have 2 or 3 cools in place or you might get some stretch.). In flower, use 1:1 ratio.

Is it beneficial to use the 5000k bulbs 1:1 in flower or just a cost saving method? (As i have a separate veg tent)

Thanks again az.