Bagseed & MiracleGro Tomato ("the cheapsta'")
- Thread starter az2000
- Start date
I use 3:1 to 4:1 (cool to warm in veg) and 1:1 (in flower) because that's what was recommended in captainmorgan's thread where he used Cree LED lightbulbs two years ago.
All white light follows similar curves as the following (a spectral graph for SMD5630 strip LEDS):
You can see how warm light has a nice peak in the red region, and the cool light has a peak in the blue. Using both warm and cool provides more light in those ranges. If you use more warm in veg, the plant may stretch. I'm not sure what would happen if you used more warm light in flower. Cool light is associated with UVB and trichome production. But, LEDs don't emit much (if any) UVB. I stick with those ratios because they work well. It mimics the cooler light of spring/summer, the warmer light of autumn.
Your question isn't specific to the household LED lightbulbs I use. For more info, you can start a thread about veg/flower spectra on the Indoor-LED forum. (Tag me with @az2000 and I can participate if necessary.). I'd like to avoid this grow journal going too far into that topic.
Using more blue in flower may be a cost-saving motive. You get more light (umoles) per watt generating blues (a denser wavelength) than reds.
Last edited:
Trying to catch up for the past week:
Jan 30 (Day 66)
This is the plant before feeding:
UVB: I reduced the "compact" CFL UVB 10.0 bulb to 1 hour (15, 15, 15, 15 minutes). I feel like I've seen too much UVB (too late into flower) cause the trichs to amber too soon. Maybe I'm being too cautious. But, I see plenty of trichs forming. I'm not greedy. (I kind of wish I hadn't used it. I'd like to show what it looks like without UVB. I can't usually tell much difference -- except when I overuse it.).
Feb 1 (Day 68 )
This is the plant before feeding:
Nute Burn (burnt tips): I see some burnt tips on the newer, slender leaves coming out of the buds. I think that might be related to the 1400ppm runoff I got on Day 60. I think that may have resulted from me being lazy and feeding full strength at lights the previous feeding.
Feb 3 (Day 70)
Light-burnt leaves. I've been trying to hold this plant in 2.2x2.2 feet. In doing so, some fan leaves have been in contact with the lights for hours, causing some burn marks. It's not ideal. If I had a 2x2 tent, it would reflect light on the right side. Or, if I had two plants in this 2x4 tent, they'd share some light from each other. I'm trying to play fair with the 25-30w/sq ft of lighting I'm aiming for, but also accommodate for this plant being slightly oversized for a 2x2' space.
Feeding. I won't post feeding details anymore.
To summarize: I am feeding every other day at lights on. However, frequently the soil is so dry at lights-off that I think it will be too dry by lights-on. I take 2 cups of the nutrients (which are mixed and ready for lights-on) and mix that with 2 cups water (to make half-strength), I feed this at lights out. Later the next day when the soil is dry again (a few hours after lights on) I feed the remaining full-strength for a full drench with runoff. That's good enough until lights on two days later. (You could say I'm feeding every 1-3/4 days. I can't quite make it to 2 days each time.).
I feed half-strength at lights out because I believe I've seen burnt tips when I feed full strength at lights out (even just a small volume, enough to carry the plant to lights on). It seems like the absence of light to drive the uptake of nutrients creates a nute-burn condition(?).
I'm feeding 280-310ppm (2.9-3.1g/gal) mixed with 140-160ppm water. I'm seeing runoff 1200-1300 ppm. I feed enough volume to get 10-15% runoff. Basically, I mix 1 gallon which is sufficient for watering the #2 ("2 gal" container, but really contains 1.61 gallons of soil). I usually have 2-6 cups leftover. If I see runoff ppms rising I will use the leftover to get 20% runoff (I might also reduce the nutrients down to 280ppm). If I grew MG Tomato for awhile (with the strength dialed in better) I could mix only the volume I need. But, the nutrients are cheap. I'm not wasting much money. I feel worse about wasting water.
I don't expect the feedings to change until the end when I will probably switch to half-strength nutrients the last 1-2 feedings. (I call this a "cleanse," not a "flush"--which I consider as 100-300% runoff to correct a problem). If I fed heavier, I might cleanse for 3-4 feedings.
Lighting. I've tied down some of the colas because they became too tall. They weren't taking LST bending/snapping too well (they kept straightening out). I may replace the three Cree 18w PAR38 floods with Phillips 14w-14.5w (100w equiv) A21 lightbulbs (described here). The floodlights require about 10" distance. I don't think I'm getting ideal coverage the way the buds are so tall. (But, I don't think it's too bad either. I've grown with them before and got excellent results.).
On Day 60 I said I thought I had too little blue spectrum. I don't think that was the problem. I think the buds were just stretching and straightening on their own. I'll probably switch that Phillips 14w (100w equiv) cool white lightbulb to warm pretty soon.
I added an ordinary socket extender to the center socket (where I put the Phillips 14w cool described on Day 60). That lowered the bulb an inch. I might lower it another inch. I'm mentioning it because you'll see it in Day 70's photos (below).
Jan 30 (Day 66)
This is the plant before feeding:
UVB: I reduced the "compact" CFL UVB 10.0 bulb to 1 hour (15, 15, 15, 15 minutes). I feel like I've seen too much UVB (too late into flower) cause the trichs to amber too soon. Maybe I'm being too cautious. But, I see plenty of trichs forming. I'm not greedy. (I kind of wish I hadn't used it. I'd like to show what it looks like without UVB. I can't usually tell much difference -- except when I overuse it.).
Feb 1 (Day 68 )
This is the plant before feeding:
Nute Burn (burnt tips): I see some burnt tips on the newer, slender leaves coming out of the buds. I think that might be related to the 1400ppm runoff I got on Day 60. I think that may have resulted from me being lazy and feeding full strength at lights the previous feeding.
Feb 3 (Day 70)
Light-burnt leaves. I've been trying to hold this plant in 2.2x2.2 feet. In doing so, some fan leaves have been in contact with the lights for hours, causing some burn marks. It's not ideal. If I had a 2x2 tent, it would reflect light on the right side. Or, if I had two plants in this 2x4 tent, they'd share some light from each other. I'm trying to play fair with the 25-30w/sq ft of lighting I'm aiming for, but also accommodate for this plant being slightly oversized for a 2x2' space.
Feeding. I won't post feeding details anymore.
To summarize: I am feeding every other day at lights on. However, frequently the soil is so dry at lights-off that I think it will be too dry by lights-on. I take 2 cups of the nutrients (which are mixed and ready for lights-on) and mix that with 2 cups water (to make half-strength), I feed this at lights out. Later the next day when the soil is dry again (a few hours after lights on) I feed the remaining full-strength for a full drench with runoff. That's good enough until lights on two days later. (You could say I'm feeding every 1-3/4 days. I can't quite make it to 2 days each time.).
I feed half-strength at lights out because I believe I've seen burnt tips when I feed full strength at lights out (even just a small volume, enough to carry the plant to lights on). It seems like the absence of light to drive the uptake of nutrients creates a nute-burn condition(?).
I'm feeding 280-310ppm (2.9-3.1g/gal) mixed with 140-160ppm water. I'm seeing runoff 1200-1300 ppm. I feed enough volume to get 10-15% runoff. Basically, I mix 1 gallon which is sufficient for watering the #2 ("2 gal" container, but really contains 1.61 gallons of soil). I usually have 2-6 cups leftover. If I see runoff ppms rising I will use the leftover to get 20% runoff (I might also reduce the nutrients down to 280ppm). If I grew MG Tomato for awhile (with the strength dialed in better) I could mix only the volume I need. But, the nutrients are cheap. I'm not wasting much money. I feel worse about wasting water.
I don't expect the feedings to change until the end when I will probably switch to half-strength nutrients the last 1-2 feedings. (I call this a "cleanse," not a "flush"--which I consider as 100-300% runoff to correct a problem). If I fed heavier, I might cleanse for 3-4 feedings.
Lighting. I've tied down some of the colas because they became too tall. They weren't taking LST bending/snapping too well (they kept straightening out). I may replace the three Cree 18w PAR38 floods with Phillips 14w-14.5w (100w equiv) A21 lightbulbs (described here). The floodlights require about 10" distance. I don't think I'm getting ideal coverage the way the buds are so tall. (But, I don't think it's too bad either. I've grown with them before and got excellent results.).
On Day 60 I said I thought I had too little blue spectrum. I don't think that was the problem. I think the buds were just stretching and straightening on their own. I'll probably switch that Phillips 14w (100w equiv) cool white lightbulb to warm pretty soon.
I added an ordinary socket extender to the center socket (where I put the Phillips 14w cool described on Day 60). That lowered the bulb an inch. I might lower it another inch. I'm mentioning it because you'll see it in Day 70's photos (below).
420monster
Well-Known Member
All in all looking good
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Rollitup mobile app
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Rollitup mobile app
Larry {the} Gardener
Well-Known Member
Great information here. Thanks for posting this journal. You have shown frosty nuggs are doable with MG and CFL's.
Unfortunately my light is on a timer all it's own. Which means I'm killing time until the sun comes back around so I can start my garden. Today we had 11 hours 37 minutes of visible light. And as wunderground was so nice to tell me, tomorrow will be 1 minute and 32 seconds longer than today. Anything longer than 13 3/4 hours is safe, so it won't be too much longer before I can pop some seeds.
Unfortunately my light is on a timer all it's own. Which means I'm killing time until the sun comes back around so I can start my garden. Today we had 11 hours 37 minutes of visible light. And as wunderground was so nice to tell me, tomorrow will be 1 minute and 32 seconds longer than today. Anything longer than 13 3/4 hours is safe, so it won't be too much longer before I can pop some seeds.
I'm glad you like it. However, I wanted to clarify that I don't recommend CFLs. You'll get much more lumens per watt from LED. And, GE's BrightStik is cost competitive with CFL ($3.50 US for a 60w equiv. $8.00 for 100w equiv). Due to the way the diodes are forward-facing (not omnidirectional by design) you get a fairly directional light without the trouble of mounting it in a reflector. The 10w/60w equiv is 5x more light than an unreflected CFL (and 50% fewer watts than a 15w/60w equiv CFL).
The Philips A19 (not the wifi-enabled, nor the "warm effect" dimmable light, just the cheapest A19) is even more efficient (lumens/watt). But, the 8w-8.5w 60w-equiv costs a little more than the GE BrightStik.
You can flower with either of those, unreflected, with the plastic diffusor removed, at about 30-35w/sq ft. (If mounted in proper reflectors: 25-30w/sq ft.). However, you do need to power them through a GFCI outlet because removing the diffusor exposes electrical surfaces. The GFCI outlet will protect against shock.).
See this page for more details. I don't want to go too far into lighting topics here. If you want to discuss it further, start a thread in Indoor->LED and tag me (@az2000).
420monster
Well-Known Member
I was always wondering how thoes led bulbs would compare to cfl thanks for the clarity I use a hid buy maybe I'll give led bulbs a shot for my veg instead of a 600w mh
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Rollitup mobile app
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Rollitup mobile app
They're good for a smaller space (4' tall, for example). If you do a taller space, you have to make a fixture and use the 14-18w versions (fewer bulbs). It's too much work hanging bulbs in a 4x4x7' tall space. But, in a 2x4x4' tall space, it's not bad using a lot of 8-10w bulbs (more bulbs, more distributed lighting).
In a taller/larger space, I would mount some Cree 18w PAR38s on 1x4" planks of wood. One every foot. And, maybe 5 planks. That would be 5 bulbs times 5 planks (25 bulbs x 18w = 450w, or 28w/sq ft. Add a tent-leg mounted sidelight in each corner and you're up to 30w/sq ft.
I would mount those in the outdoor angle-sockets like I'm using in the top-mount fixture in this grow.
But, those Cree PAR38s are considerably more expensive. And, those sockets are $5 each.
Philips 14-14.5w in reflector (and the plastic diffsor removed) would be less expensive. At that point, I would buy those flexible goosneck extenders (mentioned here). I'd bust the male end off those extenders and mount them to something like an angle-iron bar. That would give even more flexibility than those outdoor floodlight sockets. But, then you have to buy the clamp-on reflectors just to get the reflector which will slide onto the end of the goosneck extender (held in place with a piece of rubber-band.). That gets expensive. But, after you have the equipment, the bulbs themselves are less expensive than the PAR38s with built-in reflectors. (But, the PAR38s have 10-year warranties.).
That's the challenge with these bulbs: how to mount/aim/reflect/power (without a mess of cords). It's kind of a zen thing, where you have to weigh the various DIY options. The link in the prior paragraph lists all the possibilities I find useful. But, I really think hard-wiring those inexpensive gooseneck extenders is one of the better (and unrecognized) options. Those things are cheap, and they have a Metric #8 male stud on the end. Just bust the male end off.
If anyone has questions, start a thread on Indoor->LED and tag me with a @ in front of my username.
Keep an eye on this page. I plan to post some measurements of the different bulbs (so their efficiency is more conclusive.).
Larry {the} Gardener
Well-Known Member
I understand. But like you said early on, it shows folks who haven't grown before it can be done without breaking the bank on equipment and nutes.
My situation is such that I won't be using lights for my herb garden at all. I have tomato and pepper plants under florescent tubes and CFL's {with homemade hood} in the house, but there is so much traffic in my house, greenhouse and garden shed I just don't have the risk tolerance for starting weed that way. Luckily the sun shines bright down here.
Enigmatic Ways
Well-Known Member
Very very nice, I wish I would have ran across something like this when I first started growing, it shows all the neophytes that they don't "need" all the extras to grow marijuana. Great journal keep up the good work!
vino4russ
Well-Known Member
I always loved to get some old 70's-80's Red Hair....not so good... bag-weed from someone years back that had seeds in it and grow it for myself with awesome results. Smoother, tastier, better in every way cannabis. 
Friends would always say"this is the same stuff man"....Yep
Friends would always say"this is the same stuff man"....Yep
