Basic breeding questions - C99xCheese F2s and 3s

Probably basic questions for advanced growing.. and a short story.

Many years ago a cheese plant was found that grew like nothing else and so was named monster. It's clone's clone was aptly named beast and unfortunately would not be cloned again, instead it was crossed with a C99. Many years after that two F1 plants were chosen and the stronger used to polinate both.

1. What has more variability F2 or F1S1?
2. Is the best way forward from F2 selfing if you want to preserve a phenotype? Isn't this a faster way to "lock in" a trait than making an IBL?
3. What traits show simple genetics similar to the pea experiments and which traits exist on a spectrum?
4. The F1 seeds were incredibly uniform, does this means the traits displayed are dominant traits?

F1 traits from cheese

• Purple stems and jet black leaves
• Purple calyxes at low temperature
• Higer yield (denser growth structure)

F1 traits from C99

• Resistance to PM (thinner growth structure)
• Shorter flower time (monster took 14-16 weeks to flower)

All the F1 generation had purple stems and jet black leaves meaning this is a dominant trait and all F1 generation are heterozygous for that gene?

All the F1 generation had a growth structure in between the two parents and a flowering time in between the two parents. Not sure if this is incomplete domonance or many genes causing spectrum like behaviour.

Assuming all plants will have a growth structure in between the two parents and a flowering time in between the two parents then only purple stems and low temperature purpling need to be selected for. If these are two separate genes then 1 in 16 F2 seeds (and 1 in 9 plants that display both traits) will be homozygous for both traits. By selfing the F2 generation those traits can be "locked in". Under a four plant limit this can theoretically be done in 3-ish years.

Is this how you would go about it? Is something crucial missing?

The biggest issue I see is that after 3 years if you have one plant with those two traits selected for, what are the odds it has a good taste, high? Is low plant count breeding even possible or should we stick to F1 super hybrids?

Hi there, you've asked some great questions. I would direct you to a different post that I like- it gets into Punnett squares a bit more, especially deeper into the thread. This thread has some great posts in it if you filter through the obvious clueless responders. https://www.icmag.com/threads/breeding-for-beginners.20976/. Keep in mind these Punnett square examples are all based on ideal IBL x IBL crosses, not polyhybrid crosses which greatly increase the # of possible phenotypes. Just keep reading posts from known good oldtime breeders and keep making seeds. Good luck on your breeding journey!

F2 has more variability, because you start digging into the recessive genes. True F1 have an even distribution of phenos similar to each Parent and blends of the parents.

For stability of a certain pheno, I believe you're better off keeping an F1 to backross an F2 with and then backcrossing an F3 with the F1 to get to your 4th generation.

You generally want to avoid selfing, it's best kept as kind of a last ditch effort to save some genetics, rarely are plants as good the selfed Parent.
Breeding for vigor usually involves not selecting identical phenos for parents, so trying to breed where the majority of offspring produce a singular set of characteristics is not ideal and you will generally have healthier more vigorous plants having a couple of different phenotypes showing in the gene pool

Of course you can breed with low plant counts, it may take a little longer in the selection process. Many times the 1st seed or couple seeds I popped of a strain has been the best I found in all I ran of some. It's all about the luck of the draw, and more plants just mean more chances. It sounds like you have some genetics you're happy with how the offspring performed, just keep up good selections with good genes, and everything else should take care of itself

If use s1 of f1 or 2. Then try to breed with them they will be unstable and full of variations in genetics when you try to breed them back .. you will end up having to continue to self to hold any gentics you like from the s1's or S1's.. like keifcake said you'll have ot hold onto a f1 mom or a Mom of the traits you like of the one parent and continully backcross to it many generations for stablity.. cubing, squaring, then backcrossing.

Rurumo said:

Hi there, you've asked some great questions. I would direct you to a different post that I like- it gets into Punnett squares a bit more, especially deeper into the thread. This thread has some great posts in it if you filter through the obvious clueless responders. https://www.icmag.com/threads/breeding-for-beginners.20976/. Keep in mind these Punnett square examples are all based on ideal IBL x IBL crosses, not polyhybrid crosses which greatly increase the # of possible phenotypes. Just keep reading posts from known good oldtime breeders and keep making seeds. Good luck on your breeding journey!

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This is very ture, its very hard and time consuming trying to breed and stabilize from polyhybreds.. its probably better to just contiuelly self polyhybreds for trait you like.. you'll still have variations in the s1 or S1 offspring but nothing like if you where breeding to stabilized any traits

keifcake said:

Of course you can breed with low plant counts, it may take a little longer in the selection process. Many times the 1st seed or couple seeds I popped of a strain has been the best I found in all I ran of some. It's all about the luck of the draw, and more plants just mean more chances. It sounds like you have some genetics you're happy with how the offspring performed, just keep up good selections with good genes, and everything else should take care of itself

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Yeah s1s can sometimes suck but like f2s there is some gold always in there too id also say some strains work as a s1 better than others

keifcake said:

You generally want to avoid selfing, it's best kept as kind of a last ditch effort to save some genetics, rarely are plants as good the selfed Parent.
Breeding for vigor usually involves not selecting identical phenos for parents, so trying to breed where the majority of offspring produce a singular set of characteristics is not ideal and you will generally have healthier more vigorous plants having a couple of different phenotypes showing in the gene pool

Click to expand...

Caleb, aka the inspecta, who owns CSI Humbolt seeds, said on the potcast that many S1s can be better than the famous mother cuts. His examples were many, Purple Urkle, Wedding cake, Sherbert(the green cut), mendo purps, birthday cake,TK OG, chem 91 etc. after the interviewer 'Heavydayz' assumed otherwise. Even selfed plants can have many Pheno types depending on if they've been bottlenecked genetically or not.