kermit2692
Well-Known Member
Good luck! These are older than i am! Going to check back real interested to see if any work.
GrandfatherRat
Active Member
I'm moving the journal entries into this thread...
1.10.17 - GrandfatherRat's Bagseed Time Machine Project
Now it begins.
I have sorted through the seed pile, removed the obvious deaders and any that crushed under gentle pressure of a finger. There were about a hundred dead seeds I took out. This left a count of 989 potentially viable beans to work with. Crushed and dead seeds were saved in case they are useful for gene profiling.
Today I began a control group germination of 10 random seeds, using tap water and brown paper towels in a ziplock bag, placed on top of the hot water heater (waiting on my new heat mat). Based on the success rates with this method, I will branch out to try and find the best way to get the most seeds to pop. Here are some of the variables I'm interested in trying;
Storing seeds in the fridge for 3 days
Soaking seeds in water
Scoring seeds / seams with sandpaper
Germ in paper towels
Germ in rapid rooters
Germ in soil
Heat mat or no heat mat
If these methods do not produce good results, I will try more invasive options like the gibberellic acid treatment. I need to be mindful of not wasting seeds by too much experimentation; once I find a viable method, I need to pop these beans while they still have life! At the same time, I understand that I could spend the next ten years investigating and breeding the results from just one run of a dozen plants... and I have hundreds and hundreds of seeds waiting.
Second test group is in progress; this batch was sanded, is being chilled, and will shortly be in wet paper towels and on a heat mat. These are being germinated at another friend's garden-- this will give us some isolation, and a layer of redundancy in case of any problems.
http://i.imgur.com/HoWHCa3.jpg
I've started these two groups because we simply could not wait after the first sort and clean and count. I am on pins and needles waiting to see how many will pop-- we are expecting to possibly have to wait awhile for germination-- 1-2 weeks.
In the meantime I will continue to sort the seeds into rough groups based on size and appearance. From my sorting, I noticed a large number of small seeds, and quite a few very small seeds. These all passed the squeeze test. There are some really nice tiger striped seeds, quite a few uniform light brown, and some small dark ones. The larger seeds stand out. I will sort them into rough categories, and then we will catalog the promising ones.
1.10.17 - GrandfatherRat's Bagseed Time Machine Project
Now it begins.
I have sorted through the seed pile, removed the obvious deaders and any that crushed under gentle pressure of a finger. There were about a hundred dead seeds I took out. This left a count of 989 potentially viable beans to work with. Crushed and dead seeds were saved in case they are useful for gene profiling.
Today I began a control group germination of 10 random seeds, using tap water and brown paper towels in a ziplock bag, placed on top of the hot water heater (waiting on my new heat mat). Based on the success rates with this method, I will branch out to try and find the best way to get the most seeds to pop. Here are some of the variables I'm interested in trying;
Storing seeds in the fridge for 3 days
Soaking seeds in water
Scoring seeds / seams with sandpaper
Germ in paper towels
Germ in rapid rooters
Germ in soil
Heat mat or no heat mat
If these methods do not produce good results, I will try more invasive options like the gibberellic acid treatment. I need to be mindful of not wasting seeds by too much experimentation; once I find a viable method, I need to pop these beans while they still have life! At the same time, I understand that I could spend the next ten years investigating and breeding the results from just one run of a dozen plants... and I have hundreds and hundreds of seeds waiting.
Second test group is in progress; this batch was sanded, is being chilled, and will shortly be in wet paper towels and on a heat mat. These are being germinated at another friend's garden-- this will give us some isolation, and a layer of redundancy in case of any problems.
http://i.imgur.com/HoWHCa3.jpg
I've started these two groups because we simply could not wait after the first sort and clean and count. I am on pins and needles waiting to see how many will pop-- we are expecting to possibly have to wait awhile for germination-- 1-2 weeks.
In the meantime I will continue to sort the seeds into rough groups based on size and appearance. From my sorting, I noticed a large number of small seeds, and quite a few very small seeds. These all passed the squeeze test. There are some really nice tiger striped seeds, quite a few uniform light brown, and some small dark ones. The larger seeds stand out. I will sort them into rough categories, and then we will catalog the promising ones.
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GrandfatherRat
Active Member
Here's a small sample of the batch that I'm sorting at the moment. They are quite interesting; still lots of junk to clean out, and a few damaged seeds that I didn't spot on the first sort. The small glossy black ones are curious looking! Looks like a decent variety present, which is good news as well.
Still no real idea what's in here, other than what I posted in the earlier journal entry. I did manage to search up some info on the Bork strain, which was apparently an early Skunk#1 cross. That would be an amazing find. Personally I'm interested in seeing some landrace sativas, but it's just a big mystery until we get seeds to pop and plants to grow...
Still no real idea what's in here, other than what I posted in the earlier journal entry. I did manage to search up some info on the Bork strain, which was apparently an early Skunk#1 cross. That would be an amazing find. Personally I'm interested in seeing some landrace sativas, but it's just a big mystery until we get seeds to pop and plants to grow...
GrandfatherRat
Active Member
Images!
Group 1 germ attempt -- 10 seeds, three days in at this point, and no signs of life yet...
Small batch of seeds being sorted
Close up of the group
Group 1 germ attempt -- 10 seeds, three days in at this point, and no signs of life yet...
Small batch of seeds being sorted
Close up of the group
Attachments
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GrandfatherRat
Active Member
I just... holy shit new developments.
No, nothing has popped yet, and it's four days. Still waiting on germination. And now a new complication has appeared.
After the find of 1K beans from the 80's (yes, 989, whatever, 1K is just easier), we were leaning on my friend to dig up more info on his seeds. He did us one better, and dug up his seed stash from the 90's. These seeds are from Colorado, are more recent, and we have a better idea of what's in this group. At the time, my friend was connected with the local grow scene, and was furiously smoking all the Colorado kind bud he could find after leaving the East coast scene. Another mutual friend at the time was running a fantastic strain we called The Diamonds, which I think was an AK47 and Blueberry cross. He later stopped growing and the strain was lost as far as we know. We are sure this stash contains Diamonds seeds, as well as a variety of other Colorado kind buds, including a good deal of Blueberry.
Around this time, about 95', I moved out to Colorado, and met up with the friend with all these seeds. I was connected to a grower in the mountains known as the Gold Hill Hippie, who had been growing outdoor since the late 60's. His weed was all oddball bagseed strains and stuff he got from friends, and his outdoor grow was always fluffy and not well manicured, but some plants were real standouts. We have some of those seeds as well; God only knows what genetics might be in there.
This stash may be even larger than the first. I have not counted yet, but at first glance it looks easily as big as the first batch.
I'm still processing this find. I'm stunned.
No, nothing has popped yet, and it's four days. Still waiting on germination. And now a new complication has appeared.
After the find of 1K beans from the 80's (yes, 989, whatever, 1K is just easier), we were leaning on my friend to dig up more info on his seeds. He did us one better, and dug up his seed stash from the 90's. These seeds are from Colorado, are more recent, and we have a better idea of what's in this group. At the time, my friend was connected with the local grow scene, and was furiously smoking all the Colorado kind bud he could find after leaving the East coast scene. Another mutual friend at the time was running a fantastic strain we called The Diamonds, which I think was an AK47 and Blueberry cross. He later stopped growing and the strain was lost as far as we know. We are sure this stash contains Diamonds seeds, as well as a variety of other Colorado kind buds, including a good deal of Blueberry.
Around this time, about 95', I moved out to Colorado, and met up with the friend with all these seeds. I was connected to a grower in the mountains known as the Gold Hill Hippie, who had been growing outdoor since the late 60's. His weed was all oddball bagseed strains and stuff he got from friends, and his outdoor grow was always fluffy and not well manicured, but some plants were real standouts. We have some of those seeds as well; God only knows what genetics might be in there.
This stash may be even larger than the first. I have not counted yet, but at first glance it looks easily as big as the first batch.
I'm still processing this find. I'm stunned.
OldMedUser
Well-Known Member
One thing I've noticed by breeding my own plants for the last 15 years or so is that each strain has pretty distinct seeds. Side, colouring and patterns are mostly quite different tho some strains are hard to distinguish due to their blandness. I'd start grouping the ones that stand out as related then grow some out to see if the plants are similar too.
Sure a lot of beans to wade through.
Sure a lot of beans to wade through.
GrandfatherRat
Active Member
Yes! This is definitely the plan. I'm really hoping for some consistency with the seeds-- once each batch is grouped by size and appearance, hopefully this will give us some leading predictors as to what seeds are left. I will be sorting the second batch today. I've already begun another test group for germination of the second batch, which we will be calling the CO Group. The first batch will be referred to as the PA Group. This new test germ batch of ten seeds was sanded, and is just finishing a 24 hr water soak-- I will have them in paper towel by this evening. Seven of the ten have sank to the bottom, which I take as a good sign.One thing I've noticed by breeding my own plants for the last 15 years or so is that each strain has pretty distinct seeds. Side, colouring and patterns are mostly quite different tho some strains are hard to distinguish due to their blandness. I'd start grouping the ones that stand out as related then grow some out to see if the plants are similar too.
Sure a lot of beans to wade through.
GrandfatherRat
Active Member
This is the first batch from the CO Group. Ten seeds, a good mix with some nice tiger stripes. Here they are on the paper ready to sand. 
whitebb2727
Well-Known Member
I would try this first. You would be surprised.
I've thrown old seeds outside and forgot about them and come out and see them up and growing a month later.
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yes and no. its best he does it so it comes up under his name/avatarI saw the blog thing when I was going to start my grow journal but went into the forums to do it there.
Can you move said blog into the forums or will @GrandfatherRat have to copy/paste it into the forums himself?
Thanks for the explanation Sunni.
GrandfatherRat
Active Member
I've moved all the content into this thread, so I will probably just delete the old journal entries for clarity's sake and so searches will point to the right thread. Thanks for responding and looking into this!
GrandfatherRat
Active Member
The control group is pretty much this-- just tapwater and brown paper towels. I prefer the paper towels because I can visually inspect the seeds. So far the control has been going almost five days with no signs of life-- though we expect they could take up to a couple of weeks to pop.
GrandfatherRat
Active Member
All ten were sinkers this morning!
Now moved into unbleached paper towels inside an open ziplock. The bag is now on a ceramic plate on a heat mat, covered by another plate.
Now moved into unbleached paper towels inside an open ziplock. The bag is now on a ceramic plate on a heat mat, covered by another plate.
GrandfatherRat
Active Member
I'm looking at suppliers on ebay, as the local garden shops don't appear to stock it; if anyone has first hand experience with this process, I would love input. I've downloaded a couple of the scholarly pdfs on the process, but of course none of those were done on cannabis seeds. I'm reading them anyway. On the advice of an earlier poster, I searched and found this youtube from VaderVision That's about where I am so far. Once I can distill this information down to an actual process, I will post it and folks can make suggestions.
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GrandfatherRat
Active Member
Found a supplier of GA3 online through Amazon, in the gardening supply section-- 5 grams of 'technical grade' powder. Hopefully it's clean and not too old.
Ordered and will be here Tuesday, thank you Optimus Prime! That should give me time to read up and form a plan of attack.
Ordered and will be here Tuesday, thank you Optimus Prime! That should give me time to read up and form a plan of attack.
GrandfatherRat
Active Member
I will be using these resources on germination, from the research of Dr. Norman Deno titled 'Seed Germination: Theory and Practice'. The links are too good not to share; the study is comprehensive, involving thousands of species and all kinds of variables. Deno has experimental methods which I will certainly be stealing for this work. I've already come across some great stuff here, and I encourage others to read the pdf. The below is a USDA publication search link.
http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/catalog/41278
Supplement 1
https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/catalog/41279
Suppement 2
https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/catalog/41277
http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/catalog/41278
Supplement 1
https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/catalog/41279
Suppement 2
https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/catalog/41277
GrandfatherRat
Active Member
The Deno pdf is pure gold. This guy's style is very readable, his methods are simple and proven, and his results are conclusive. I can tell you that more than a few bombs will be dropped from this tome. His process for using GA3 is simple and elegant, and I plan to apply it. Here are a few general conclusions drawn from the study, which I am eager to see applied my own germination attempts. The study did not include cannabis, so it will be a matter of experimentation to see how these conclusions apply specifically to our beloved plant. I also looked for Hops, which is a relative of pot, but it was also not included.
In most cases (certainly in my case) moist paper towels in baggies are the best method to use for germinating seeds. Deno has a specific method which I will describe later, but it's basically what most of us do already.
It doesn't matter if you use unbleached paper towels, though heavy duty towels last longer in extended experiments.
Seeds should not be put in the freezer to 'awaken' them. Temperatures of 40 deg F (that of a standard fridge), were sufficient for this in the case of almost every seed in Deno's 2500 species sample. The other baseline temperature is 70 deg F, average room temperature. Temperature fluctuations may or may not be a factor in cannabis germination.
Soaking seeds, if done, is recommended for shorter periods of up to a week. Soaking for longer periods did not increase germination in almost all cases. Soaking is not required for cannabis germination, but it seems likely that it will promote germination.
Sanding or scoring seeds is only useful if the outer shell of the seed is actually breached with micro fissures, or an actual water channel or hole that lets moisture into the seed.
Light will either block germination, have no effect on germination, or is required for germination. Based on the fact that folks germinate cannabis in both the presence and absence of light, it is likely that light has no effect on germination in cannabis seeds.
In most cases (certainly in my case) moist paper towels in baggies are the best method to use for germinating seeds. Deno has a specific method which I will describe later, but it's basically what most of us do already.
It doesn't matter if you use unbleached paper towels, though heavy duty towels last longer in extended experiments.
Seeds should not be put in the freezer to 'awaken' them. Temperatures of 40 deg F (that of a standard fridge), were sufficient for this in the case of almost every seed in Deno's 2500 species sample. The other baseline temperature is 70 deg F, average room temperature. Temperature fluctuations may or may not be a factor in cannabis germination.
Soaking seeds, if done, is recommended for shorter periods of up to a week. Soaking for longer periods did not increase germination in almost all cases. Soaking is not required for cannabis germination, but it seems likely that it will promote germination.
Sanding or scoring seeds is only useful if the outer shell of the seed is actually breached with micro fissures, or an actual water channel or hole that lets moisture into the seed.
Light will either block germination, have no effect on germination, or is required for germination. Based on the fact that folks germinate cannabis in both the presence and absence of light, it is likely that light has no effect on germination in cannabis seeds.
CannaBruh
Well-Known Member
very rarely if ever do I stick them in the dark, only making sure they are in no direct light.
Something that has always puzzled me, is what the little green patch on a fresh cracked bean is for if we keep them in the dark? Is that a store of starch/chlorophyll for feeding or is it actually meant to perform photosynthesis until the cotyledons emerge? Admittedly I don't know.
Something that has always puzzled me, is what the little green patch on a fresh cracked bean is for if we keep them in the dark? Is that a store of starch/chlorophyll for feeding or is it actually meant to perform photosynthesis until the cotyledons emerge? Admittedly I don't know.