UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
only if we're lucky. she was a true progressive, especially on the issues important to democrats.
Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the US
- Thread starter Padawanbater2
- Start date
ttystikk
Well-Known Member
This is a very strange article. Starting from a fairly reasonable premise, that most Americans are against our ongoing wars of opportunism, it paints some alternate scenarios and then examines them.
The conclusions drawn are strange. What do you all think?
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/04/anti-war-political-purity-tests-not-sound-political-strategy.html
The conclusions drawn are strange. What do you all think?
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/04/anti-war-political-purity-tests-not-sound-political-strategy.html
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
Absurd, man. How did you come across nakedcapitalism? From what I've read, which isn't much admittedly, they seem to have an establishment slant, like Newsweek. I noticed 2 typos in the first couple paragraphs. Do they have an editor?
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Good article Ty. I've been floundering about trying to reconcile a public opinion that favors social progressive policy yet votes against it. This article hits that nerve and gets my attention. I'll read this one through more carefully.
LOL Paddy doesn't like this conclusion: So if an otherwise sound candidate doesn’t campaign on “more war” and gives only at most tepid support, that is far more pragmatic and more likely to win against the war machine in the long run than going after it head on.
This conclusion has almost a zen approach to conflict. Don't endorse violence if you can't support it. But also, don't get consumed in opposition. Do what's necessary to win even if that means conceding early defeat. Or something like that.
We resume with our regular schedule of Padawonbater rage.
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
Sorry, starting offensive wars and wasting trillions of dollars is one of those "purity tests" you guys hate so much..
It sucks when values get in the way of partisan politics..
ttystikk
Well-Known Member
Economics is a bit dry but they aren't the right wingers you may initially suppose.
Keep reading them, I think you'll find it interesting. Many if not most of their articles come from other sources, curated there. The commentariat is very knowledgeable and insightful as well, and bring many viewpoints that inform my perspective.
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ttystikk
Well-Known Member
It was thought provoking, thanks for your take.
Blind rage against the machine is ultimately unhelpful. Its advantages include passion and getting people off the couch and into the fray, but without a direction it has a tendency to fizzle or worse.
Just as Zen would suggest, we need to be ready with a good alternative when the opportunity presents itself, because the window isn't likely to remain open for long.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
you aren't sorry but thanks for the sentiment. We mostly agree on policy, just not how to get there. I guess you are always just angry. Anger clouds the mind, sorry.
How do you reconcile that most Americans oppose war by opinion but support the war machine by voting for it in the form of representation? Am I being partisan by asking that question and refusing to accept "because corporations" as an answer?
ttystikk
Well-Known Member
I think that's a very thorny question.
There are a lot of cross currents and a truly incredible amount of money being made and moved around.
The potential for people to act in self serving ways is endless.
How do the American People regain control of the situation and the MIC? I don't know, but that isn't stopping me from trying to find out and testing various hypotheses.
This makes me wrong sometimes, but I know of few worthwhile successes that weren't born of many failures. I'm not afraid of failure, only of not trying again.
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
Because the military industrial complex funds part of virtually every member of congress' campaigns
Do you think it's a coincidence those who take in the most tend to be the biggest war hawks in government?
You can brush off my attitude as angry if you want, if you're not angry about the shafting average Americans have blindly accepted the past few decades, you're not informed.
ttystikk
Well-Known Member
The tricky part seems to be voicing one's anger in a way that doesn't give people an opening to call you unreasonable or worse.
I'm trying and it's no easy feat.
Justin-case
Well-Known Member
They don't know what they want until they get it, and don't know what they have until it's taken away. Definetly frustrating for others.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Put names to them. My congressmen aren't war mongers. put a name to these congressmen who say they oppose war but vote for war funding. I'll probably point out a few very good people in that list. Would you prefer those names be replaced by right wingers?
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
And decades after that film was released we have Trump and the most extreme right government ever. Yeah anger yourself up for success. Anger is just another side or the coin called fear. It is harmful in the long term. Just look at what's going on in those angry red neck woods.
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
I agree. But that doesn't mean all anger is irrational, or that all decisions that stem from anger are irrational. Anger precedes every political and social revolution ever held. Do you think Martin Luther King was angry when he was held against his will in that Birmingham jail? Don't you think anger was a big part of the reason the civil rights movement succeeded? People were very angry at the time..
There's nothing wrong with being angry about being abandoned by political representation.
ttystikk
Well-Known Member
There lot of pent up anger- and fear- in America right now.
I fear it's going to get worse before it gets better, as people get very angry about how they've been robbed of their future by the ultra rich.
I smell a crash coming...
Sometimes I actually think you're serious with this bullshit.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Yours is a useless naive and worthless anger. Do you think that Martin Luther King just got up one day and got angry then did something?
The endorphin-releasing fight or flight response can result in a rage that might be necessary to motivate an effective response that puts the defender in harms way. It might be necessary to cloud the mind with anger in order to get somebody to do that. The group benefits while the defender might lose their life or health through injury. You are talking about an evolved response that ensures survival of the group but not necessarily the responder. Same goes with military actions.
Anger-rage is very different from what MLK used to correct generations-long segregation. He was passionate about correcting a wrong but he was reasoned and persistent. His words and actions don't indicate he was motivated by anger. Trump, on the other hand seems to me to be motivated by anger. His actions and the actions of people around him are pretty much textbook in what happens when a leader uses fear rather than reason to motivate change.
Hitler seems to me to have been motivated by anger too. Just saying.
Lots of alcohol abuse, drug abuse, other unhealthy forms of abuse in economically anxious, angry red neck communities. Same goes with economically challenged urban communities. Fear and anger aren't healthy long term. Compared to people who aren't stressed and axious, plenty of studies show people who are fearful and angry make decisions that have poor outcomes. Which goes a long way to explain your condition.
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ttystikk
Well-Known Member
We can't all be MLK Jr, but we can certainly try to channel our frustrations into more positive outlets.
I understand Pad's anger and I share it. I'm also aware that mere cussing and screaming (not accusing Pad of this) is almost always counterproductive. It's a tightrope walk for sure. I'm still learning.