best nutrients to use in hydro

the formula I high lighted in red is essentially the lucas formula 1:1:2 NPK
by the time you ph adjust with phosphoric acid youll be exactly the same as lucas

its got a low N ratio with the N being only half the amount of the K

this is considered by most to be a low N ratio and if you use it to soon your plants will or should likely yellow out prematurely (unless your over feeding)

id use the reg bloom mix up to week 4 of 12/12 and thyen if you want a lower N mix switch to the late bloom formula and make sure your not over feeding

I bet youd be much better off if you just used the formulas as I provided which should yield roughly an EC of 1.3 to 1.4 +/-


all the work is done for you, all you gotta do is follow the recipe and not over feed... better to under feed than over feed

nothing will reduce your yields more than an unbalanced fertilizer that your using too much of!!!

im4satori said:

ah ok, I apologize, I misunderstood, I thought you where already adding calmag also for some strange reason


the three formulas I provided;

each with full descriptions and showing the amount of N in each formula

veg
bloom
late bloom

if you feel your N is too high then choose the late bloom formula mix that has the lower amount of N

I already provided you with an option to reduce N

go back and look at the post again and look at the ppm numbers for each of the elements
looking strictly at N and from memory +/-

veg N 120ppm
bloom N 100ppm
late bloom N 80ppm

notice how the N drops lower depending on the mix ratio
youll also notice the P will increase as you get later into bloom


adding the calmag (which you are correct in that its an option but...) is only going to confuse things since you really don't know how much youll need to balance your cation/fertilizer ratios

theres a delicate balance between K & Ca & Mg
these three elements will compete for uptake and they need to be balanced to prevent issues, the formulas I gave you are perfectly balanced as they are and adding calmag is only going to mess up the ratios

if you just stick to the 3 recipes youll be in good shape as for as your nutes being balanced they'll be very little to no tweaking needed to dial it in

btw
I suspect your likely over feeding all around and that's why your N is high and your buds are small... what EC are you running?
a proper range would be max or full strength EC1.2 (lowest) to EC 1.5 (highest)

my set up perfectly dialed in sits perfect at EC1.3... for some its a little higher... but theres no reason to feed anything higher than EC1.5... if you are I would bet money that's your issue with reduced bud size

this is all assuming your in hydro, I don't recall your medium, I know you've told me but im a stoner lol

Click to expand...

I am in hydro ebb and flow hydroton media with R O water but need new membranes and the R O water is 0.2-0.3 to start with.

I haven't started to use the cal/mag as of yet and if I did I wouldnt use the cal/nit with it. My ec is 1.7 right now I had it at 1.5 but it has risen to 1.7 since it is taking up more water than nutes I top off the res the ec will go down. So with that info are you going to say I am over feeding cuz the ec should go down along with the water uptake but I have never had the ec go down along with water uptake it has always been the ec goes up a bit the water goes down then if I add water back up to the original level my ec goes down because I am adding R O water back. Clean water will lower your ec concentration. Right now I add water back to the original ec not the original level.

I dont think that I am over feeding with the thinking of when I use H&G at about 3/4 strength and by their feedchart I will get an ec of 1.9-2.2. I understand that overfeeding is bad I have actually over fed small plants and have literally seen them get smaller then I got smart and checked the ppm and I was over feeding by about 450 ppms. But like I said I have pushed my flowers to a 2.2 ec with success but thats H&G - in flower.

So is dry nutes different in that respect?
Maybe my buds are smaller cuz I am underfeeding them. ? Or maybe excess nitrogen??
But this is a sad crop from what I am used to. Very concerning.

I have been running this for the past four weeks
2 grams calnite
2 grams Epsom
2 grams mix
last water change I added some silica but other than that nothing else. So tomorrow I am going to do a water change and use the bloom ratio you posted just to see what happens, I guess to keep the dry nute experiment going.

So.... how do you know these numbers you posted
yields
N 81
P 65
K 166
Mg 39
Ca 80


yields
N 118
P 35
K 128
Mg 52
Ca 125 (high depending on source water)

where do these numbers come from???

I thought I would have a better run with these nutes, new nutes new success, but I guess I do better being willy nilly with H&G.

Not going to lie the plants do have signs of nute burn but how can that be with an ec of about 1.6 when I have run H&G to 2.2 with no nute burn. But lets not focus on what I think is a nute burn cuz it may have been caused by something else, I did post that my leaf edges (the points on the leaf edge) are/where sticking up and have that serrated look to them. Those edges turned brown plus the tips and not on the entire plant. My lights may have been too close at the time and have raised them a little.

Idk I guess they show all the signs of being over fed but how can that be at just 800 ppms 1.6ec. I still think there is something else going on.

as for the nute EC

its the same no matter the brand, and yes I believe your over feeding

like I said, drop it down to 1.3, if the EC drops without top off raise it, but not above 1.5

do a little test, take your single pot, hold it over a bowl and pour some of the reservoir solution thru it and then test the EC.... compare the EC from the solution coming from the bottom of the pot vs that going in at the top of the pot

silica...stop adding silica, it adds K and the additional K could give you magnesium lockout which could exp0lain the leaf curl

the mix already has lots of K, and your already on the high end of your K needs, adding silica/K , I wouldn't

Good growing and maybe i try grow in water to. Looks good is expensive?

I switched to formulating via elemental ppm a while back. At the time I did a good bit of research and came to the conclusion that the agricultural community (cannabis being the exception) had a fairly standard set of ratios and ppm which can vary slightly from one crop to another.

N = generally somewhere between 100-150. 150 would be the high end, probably useful when the product is vegetative like lettuce and other greens.

P = generally somewhere between 20-40 but as high as 80-100 for some crops.

K = generally between 100-150 but as high as 250 for some crops.

It's difficult to translate because of the various mediums involved, but I assume most of the data is in reference to growing in soil, meaning fields that are used year after year. N get's leeched if it's not taken up while P and K are more stable. This could indicate higher PK levels in water and fresh soilless media because they are generally devoid of available NPK.

Which brings us to elemental ppm from 100-50-150 to 100-100-250. Those formulations will generally result in EC readings of around 1-1.2.

It does depend on the brand of fertilizer and it can vary a lot. I replicated a NPK elemental ppm profile using two different nutrient formulas. The meter registered a 25% difference between the two formulas. I then bumped up the ppm on the weaker solution with a combination of pk booster and complete fert to equal the other and ended up with 50% more K and 40% more N. This is the reason why formulating based on TDS alone is going to be sloppy.

Another issue as mentioned is uptake competition. PK boosters that don't contain micros will change those ratios so if someone want's to push the EC to 1.5 and beyond it would be best to get as close as possible without using PK boosters unless one can maintain micro ratios with additional supplements. I am experimenting with the 1.5-2 EC range, but haven't gotten enough data to speak about possible benefits yet. I can say that using high levels of fert and added PK boosters can result in elemental P ppm of 150-200+ and K of 300-425+.

A more traditional farmer would say that was just crazy. The clerk at the grow store will tell you traditional farmers have to look at cost to benefit ratio of low value crops and that just doesn't apply to us, so we push the limits. There is some logic in this principal so I want to explore it and see for myself first hand.

I'm doing a side by side journal with Jacks 3-2-1 in coco and RDWC. should have some good info by the end. I ended up taking advice from tty here and his RDWC ratio is pretty similar to the coco recipe I'm running. with the possibility of adding more K to the rdwc side and running lower ppms hopefully it meshes well.

Rahz said:

I can say that using high levels of fert and added PK boosters can result in elemental P ppm of 150-200+ and K of 300-425+.

A more traditional farmer would say that was just crazy.

Click to expand...

I also think P that high is crazy. Same with K. N at 200ppm is not crazy.

Have you checked out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoagland_solution yet or did you rule this out as a common agriculture community standard? It is an old formula, but I still wonder if you've considered it in selecting ranges and ratios.

There are 2 reasons farmers don't use higher levels of P.

There has been a lot of research done on the effects of P concentration vs growth rates and just about all of it suggests that below a certain concentration, growth will be stunted proportionally to how far below that concentration it is, but after that point, there are no effects. So after a certain concentration of P, you're guaranteed to be throwing it away with res change with no extra growth.

The other reason farmers don't use too much P is runoff of P in particular is heavily regulated to prevent algae blooms in nearby ponds and streams.

churchhaze said:

I also think P that high is crazy. Same with K. N at 200ppm is not crazy.

Have you checked out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoagland_solution yet or did you rule this out as a common agriculture community standard? It is an old formula, but I still wonder if you've considered it in selecting ranges and ratios.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't rule it out. My problem with N at 200 is that I get plenty of growth at 100. It's something worth testing but it doesn't seem intuitive to me. I kinda settled on 100-50-150 as a good formula based on my research and am now looking to try variations and see what the difference is. One that sticks out is raising the K. I've noticed various non-canna nutrient formulas have K well over 200. I also think P at 200 and K over 300 is probably pointless. I got into debate with the grow shop owner and ended up agreeing to do a side by side. Maxigro/bloom/koolbloom -vs- his choice of liquid nutrient (Canna series) + his choice of PK booster (MOAB) and shooting powder. He wanted me to top out at around 1200 ppm (700 scale) so that's how this test will run. He offered to pony up for his choice of nutrients so I agreed to run the test.

I'm unclear on the shooting powder as it's listed as a PK booster, yet examining the package it appears to have almost no P or K. It seems to be some kind of late growth stimulator and not really a fertilizer so I'm not sure how it will affect the product. My personal expectation is that while things can be tweaked, it will be difficult to make a notable improvement over (cheaper) Maxi dry series. I am only playing with the Koolbloom as a way to keep N around 100, but if higher levels of N in bloom aren't an issue then it should be easy to get high TDS results with just gro/bloom... not that I necessarly want high TDS levels. One formula I would like to try would be 100-50-250, but Maxi series isn't capable of producing those ratios.

All my prior testing has been light spectrum-vs-spectrum so now that I'm switching over to modifying fertilizer variables I think I will gain some useful insight in the next year or so. I'm not opposed to trying something similar to the Hoagland solution.

Rahz said:

One formula I would like to try would be 100-50-250, but Maxi series isn't capable of producing those ratios.

Click to expand...

You could probably get somewhere close to there using potassium nitrate as a source of potassium, of course you'd have to use less calcium nitrate to keep N the same. That's the problem with experimenting with changing 1 element in general. You always end up changing more than 1 unless you also sharply change pH. (you could use potassium hydroxide and get only potassium, etc).

I'd suspect this level of K will antagonize Mg, but you can't really tell without trying. I see making nutrients more like baking than anything else. You just have to dial in on what seems to be optimal.

Rahz said:

I'm not opposed to trying something similar to the Hoagland solution.

Click to expand...

I've tried using Hoagland straight up and while it did work, I use it mostly as a point of reference. (Hoag +30ppm P, for example)

.

churchhaze said:

You could probably get somewhere close to there using potassium nitrate as a source of potassium, of course you'd have to use less calcium nitrate to keep N the same. That's the problem with experimenting with changing 1 element in general.
.

Click to expand...

I have worked out a calc in Excel to play around with these things. I haven't added fields for Ca, Mg and Na but probably will soon.



First three numbers on line 29 provide a bottle ratio. Last three are elemental ppm.

Ionic bloom with N normalized to 100 (19ml per gallon) comes out to 100-43-208. If I wanted to maintain the same K/Ca/Mg ratio while bumping K to 250 I could probably get very close by lowering the base fert a bit and adding some Cal/Mag. I need to work in additional fields so I can see the actual cation ratios.



I don't like using more expensive liquids (or expensive powders)... but since I have these products on hand might as well use them.

Rahz said:

I wouldn't rule it out. My problem with N at 200 is that I get plenty of growth at 100. It's something worth testing but it doesn't seem intuitive to me. I kinda settled on 100-50-150 as a good formula based on my research and am now looking to try variations and see what the difference is. One that sticks out is raising the K. I've noticed various non-canna nutrient formulas have K well over 200. I also think P at 200 and K over 300 is probably pointless. I got into debate with the grow shop owner and ended up agreeing to do a side by side. Maxigro/bloom/koolbloom -vs- his choice of liquid nutrient (Canna series) + his choice of PK booster (MOAB) and shooting powder. He wanted me to top out at around 1200 ppm (700 scale) so that's how this test will run. He offered to pony up for his choice of nutrients so I agreed to run the test.

I'm unclear on the shooting powder as it's listed as a PK booster, yet examining the package it appears to have almost no P or K. It seems to be some kind of late growth stimulator and not really a fertilizer so I'm not sure how it will affect the product. My personal expectation is that while things can be tweaked, it will be difficult to make a notable improvement over (cheaper) Maxi dry series. I am only playing with the Koolbloom as a way to keep N around 100, but if higher levels of N in bloom aren't an issue then it should be easy to get high TDS results with just gro/bloom... not that I necessarly want high TDS levels. One formula I would like to try would be 100-50-250, but Maxi series isn't capable of producing those ratios.

All my prior testing has been light spectrum-vs-spectrum so now that I'm switching over to modifying fertilizer variables I think I will gain some useful insight in the next year or so. I'm not opposed to trying something similar to the Hoagland solution.

Click to expand...

have you looked at the numbers using 50/50 maxigrow/maxibloom
its almost spot on your 100-50-150 ratios with adequate calcium and magnesium

the maxi bloom alone has a very large P number so its not my first choice

the dry koolbloom powder, I don't see a use for it for any reason.. but some claim itll hasten the harvest or whatever

im4satori said:

have you looked at the numbers using 50/50 maxigrow/maxibloom
its almost spot on your 100-50-150 ratios with adequate calcium and magnesium

the maxi bloom alone has a very large P number so its not my first choice

the dry koolbloom powder, I don't see a use for it for any reason.. but some claim itll hasten the harvest or whatever

Click to expand...

Yes, I got the idea from you actually. After week 4 of flower I tend to switch to 2g gro and 4g bloom but it's still about 100 N and well under 1000 ppm. The reason I'm using the Koolbloom is I'm doing a test taking two different formulations to 1200 in flower to see which one does better. Honestly I expect them to do about the same. It wouldn't surprise me if the recommended liquid nutrient, name brand Pk booster and whatever slick chemistry is in the shooting powder does better than Maxi, but I wouldn't expect it to be by much.

Beyond that, unless I get some amazing results I'll probably go back to something more reasonable and start testing different Maxi formulations. At most I'm thinking a year or two should reveal the ideal elemental NPK ppm.

Im on the second grow going on week four and the buds aint shit again. Its either too much nitrogen or my ppms are too low. Or these dry nutes just aint for me. Im thinking the nitrogen might be low enough but idk for sure. I do feel like at the flip they stretched a lot more than in the past so........again idk.

Ill have to post up what I did later to figure out what is going wrong. I bought more chemgro so I had to be dedicated to this but might have to switch back

Any peeps know any good videos or info about dry nutes or the mixing of dry nutes. nutrient ratio's explained.

TIA

Chem Gro has a page that shows how to mix ect.

I use it at 20% of recommended dose if watering by hand, and I Feed every watering.

They say you need to mix the Base first, then the 15.5 0 0 The Mg
Needs to be mixed well before adding next ingredient.

I start off with 1tsp of Base, and 1tsp 15.5 0 0 per 5 gallons water 60% tsp Mg.
And slowly increase over time. I measure everything in 5 gallons, and then basically use 20%-25% of recommended strength.




4-20-39 Recipe 2017



How To Mix Chem-Gro Fertilizers

jimihendrix1 said:

Chem Gro has a page that shows how to mix ect.

I use it at 20% of recommended dose if watering by hand, and I Feed every watering.

They say you need to mix the Base first, then the 15.5 0 0 The Mg
Needs to be mixed well before adding next ingredient.

I start off with 1tsp of Base, and 1tsp 15.5 0 0 per 5 gallons water 60% tsp Mg.
And slowly increase over time. I measure everything in 5 gallons, and then basically use 20%-25% of recommended strength.




4-20-39 Recipe 2017



How To Mix Chem-Gro Fertilizers

Click to expand...

Isnt that fed chart screwy the other guy said to keep it about a 1.2-1.4 ec but the first week of flower according to the feed chart it states a 2.4 ec in it and I went up to a 1.9 and burnt up my junk. So I dont get it. Maybe that isnt my only problem though still trying to get it together and figure it out. Not good results at all in what I am doing.

I need to know = I am vegging with house and gardens to use it up had really nice looking plants going into flower and then switched to the chem-gro 4/20/39 right at the flip. Is that a bone head move or what.

At the start of the flip I had crap R/O water with just 50 ppms removed so that was 350 start tap water, fixed that now I have R/O water with a start ppm of just 20 did compensate for the being mostly tap = underfed but high ppm cuz of the tap and then I was about a 1.6-1.9ec, then got he R/O fixed ended up with the same ec - straight nutes. over fed.

Got a little smart and now I am about a 1.2ec. so basically burnt my junk up all kinds of deficiencies, roots look a bit fried as well.

I"m just a wreck, I can grow with the H&G but not dry nutes.

I almost want to cut this crop down so I dont have to trim it but want to learn how to fix it / use dry nutes and get killer buds like I can with the H&G



before pic

current pics
The tiny stretched tops happened after I fixed my R/O water.




the pics above are about week5-6 this pic is what I am used to at this time so I am pretty P.Oed

Bernie420 said:

Any peeps know any good videos or info about dry nutes or the mixing of dry nutes. nutrient ratio's explained.

TIA

Click to expand...

Here's the calculator I use (Excel file in zip).

Safe NPK ratios:
N: 100-200 (some people drop N well below 100 as flowers mature)
P: 20-100 (20 is low number for veg, can be higher, professional ag. usually adds no more than 40 even during fruit/flower formation but there may be benefit to higher numbers)
K: 150-250 (questionable benefit in closing in on 250. 150 works fine) I have found tomato fertilizers that use 250 ppm K when N is adjusted to 100.

Those numbers are estimates based on my research and should be safe. If you maxed out all 3 variables (200/100/250) it will be pushing safe levels. Try to work out something like 100:50:150 and make adjustments as desired. A complete fertilizer (with micros) will have adequate cal/mag depending on grow method (hydro/soil/peat). I use a 50/50 peat/coir mix so I can have problems if I don't add cal/mag in veg and early flower. As you can see, you can use cal/mag to increase the N content and Si (in the form of potassium silicate) to increase the K content.

Anyway, how the calc works: There are 4 calculators in the sheet, you only need one and can erase the others. I use this sheet because I like having multiple calcs on the same page. You can copy paste to add more calculators to the same sheet. Replace the name(s) with your nutrient(s) names. The next three columns are the bottle ratios (NPK listed on the bottle/bag). Change them to reflect your nutrients. The column after that is the amount (either grams/dry or ml/liquid) of each nutrient per gallon. These are the numbers you will play with to adjust amounts and affect the final formulation. The three columns beyond that are the resulting NPK ppms for each nutrient. Below those numbers are the actual NPK ppms of the whole formula. Below the bottle ratios you see three more numbers. They are the total NPK bottle ratios. I just include it to see what the ideal bottle ratios might be.

You can delete rows if you don't need them and it won't break the calculator. If you copy/paste to add a row you may need to adjust the formula in the NPK ppm total fields to include the extra row/s. You can use wet, dry, or a combination of wet and dry.