Budget Show Down. Tea Party Demands Government Shut Down

MrDank007

MrDank007

Well-Known Member
MuyLocoNC said:
Even if they are, you can only tax their INCOME, not their worth. Or are you now suggesting the government outright steal from American citizens?
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Typical Liberal arguement.

Income tax is for INCOME, not wealth already owned. If someone is a billionaire and the income tax rises to 100%, unless the billionaire blows his wad at the casino, he’s still going to be a billionaire. No matter what the billionaire buys with his money, no income taxes will be collected on him unless he sells off his investments. However, a 100% income tax would prevent any other person from ever becoming wealthy. Furthermore, while the average citizen can't afford expatriation, they can and this is what happens when governments stray the course. Any projected revenue gains from tax increases are a fantasy. The rich will simply move their money out of the US, and the jobs they create with their investment capital along with them.

And what this side fails to really understand is that now the "pie" is global. I could make the same argument that ulutulu is starving in Africa while some fat $30k/year liberal ass complains, but he isn't giving up his french fries. You dissipate a net worth of $40trillion, which I guess is what they say the top 5% in the US has, (who knows) amongst 300 million Americans and everyone gets $133,333 which would still be a long ways from the millions of dollars the lying liberals are telling you that everyone would get. But keep in mind, most of this is not all liquid anyways and would be a much smaller fraction. Which means if noone can afford these assets, what is to become of the demand for them? Which is why a wealth cap, which I have seen here is proposterous. Our system is dependent on cashflow...even if it is from the same dollar mulitple times.

It's always a revenue problem! The problem strictly lies with government spending and regulations. Running trillion dollar + deficits forever will ultimately lead to the total destruction of the dollar and the implosion of the US economy; so the budget must at the least, be balanced. It's really all about keeping the debt wheel rolling. The dollar is the world's reserve currency and oil is traded in dollars. As a result, there is always a demand for dollars. This means we can print money and run deficits like no other country can. If this gets out of hand...i.e. we can't service the debt, our dollar loses too much steam, other country's coup up to knock the dollar out of the world currency slot or we can't issue new debt....it's over no matter how much those rich fucks think they are swimming in.

Cutbacks are a good idea...austerity is next, followed by anarchy
 
Ernst

Ernst

Well-Known Member
undertheice said:
to the statists in the room, the idea of limiting government is anti-government. without the constant growth of the bureaucracy they see no growth at all, only the greed of selfish individuals. whether they are blind to the capacity of the private sector to solve our problems or simply overwhelmed by the seemingly endless choices available to the independent individual, they have already decided that it is governmental force that should decide the destiny of the citizenry and we had all better just fall in line. they'll spout an endless litany of corporate abuses and regale us with the heroic feats of government regulation that put an end to those abuses, but they refuse to admit that it is the denizens of government that encouraged those abuses in the first place. they seem to be incapable of looking beyond the immediate gains of allowing the state to run amok and understanding the dangers of its unchecked growth.

of course it's just a stunt, government never really shuts down. it's just a bit of political grandstanding from both sides of the aisle to remind the peons how dependent we have become on the political elite, the power hungry animals we continue to elect year after year to shove us first one way and then the other. the lifestyles of our unresponsive representatives won't be impacted by any failure to fund government services and, most importantly, their power won't be diminished in the least. the outcome will be the same as it always is. the march toward the omnipotent nanny state will resume. it might be slowed or even stalled for a while, but it will continue. it will continue because it provides the immediate gratification that the unruly mob demands.

that massive cuts to the redundancy and incompetence of our government are necessary is obvious. that we have lived beyond our means, both as individuals and as a society, and we must now endure the pain as our economy stabilizes itself is equally obvious, but few really want to admit it. even though any grade-school dropout could understand that such a cycle is inevitable, we won't be allowed those necessary pains. we will continue to simply throw more money at our problems. we are, after all, one of the richest countries in the world and can certainly afford to buy off the piper. it won't work, but it will continue the charade. we've already tried that route and have little if anything to show for it. we threw billions upon billions at failing industries and enriched only those in a position to take advantage of the taxpayer's largess. we extended unemployment benefits far beyond the temporary nature they were intended for and merely postponed the inevitable pain of those waiting for jobs that simply aren't there. we threw away millions to encourage people to replace their gas guzzlers with new, more efficient cars and give a boost to our lagging auto industry (a dual purpose move that failed utterly), but those increased sales were only temporary and the industry still languishes. we have artificially inflated the price of american labor, succeeding only in creating a false middle class for some and pushing an ever increasing number of jobs overseas. for years we have increased the taxation of the nation's businesses to the breaking point, hoping to produce a nest egg to fund our laundry list of entitlements and managing only to send industry scurrying for more business friendly climes.

even though compromise is inevitable, both sides in this debate will put it off as long as possible. one will insist that it is their duty to provide for the citizenry as though they were feckless children and the other will demand that government services be gutted. eventually they will reconcile their differences, but not until we have all been shown the bureaucracy's necessity. afterward, both sides will claim victory and neither side will have really done anything for the people or the nation's future. we will continue our downward spiral into total dependency because that is what the loudest voices, the voices of envy and greed, demand and what provides the political elite with the greatest opportunity to expand their power. yes, those openly socialistic democrats will eventually win out. if not today, then tomorrow or the next day. they will win out because legislation is affected most by popular opinion and the mob is convinced they are owed success or at least comfort in their servitude.
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My experience with private sector is that when they are done with you they fire you and say it isn't their problem that you go hungry and homeless.

So why would we be better off with Private sector control of our lives?

Another example was I had blood in my urine or should I say I was peeing blood when I didn't have the cash to see my regular doctor so off the the Emergency room I went.
Three hours later I had a prescription for anti-biotic and a $3000 bill.

I figure if private sector was in charge then we could expect any rule of law that keeps those with power and wealth in power and in wealth.
The pushing for laws which keep some in power and wealth is our real problem in Congress anyway.

Let the Bush Tax cuts expire.
Raise the top Rate to 70%
Cut the 1 Trillion in Tax Breaks.
Close tax loopholes.

I think that will solve the budget problem.

When I am faced with struggle people tell me to get up and get going rather than sit around and bitch.
Time for us to get up and pay our tab!
 
Serapis

Serapis

Well-Known Member
It is scary if you are waiting on an IRS refund check, or if like my 70 year old Dad, you are waiting for your retirement check after serving your country for 30 years in the military. A lot of shit closes with the government, affecting a lot of people....

Read today the problem with budget is partly cuts, the GOP have added riders de-funding the new health care law, and Dems have said that is a non-starter. The GAO accounting shows savings of over 10 billion per year with the law as it was passed and the Dems are standing firm there. They have accepted over 50% of the proposed cuts and have called on the GOP to compromise. It's been suggested that the GOP has the tea party screaming so loudly in it's right ear, that the left ear can't hear the please of it's constituents. The GOP is looking to cut an additional 60 billion, some of it from programs that fund innovation and education. They are willing to de-fund our future to pay for the loose spending of their president's Bush & Reagan, two of the biggest debt spenders in US history.

The Dems can show they gave in some and compromised. Will the GOP be able to same the same at the end of the day?

I see another short term spending bill, with military funding continued through end of fiscal..... these congress people want to be home this weekend with families, so they'll pass something, watch...

doc111 said:
How does a government shutdown benefit them? I'm not a fan of the Tea Party either, but I think saying they are completely anti-government is a bit of hyperbole. They are playing politics, plain and simple. The government was shutdown under Clinton in the mid 90's. It was a political tug of war back then and it's a political tug of war now. Sounds scary though doesn't it? Government Shutdown!!!!! Woooooooo!:fire:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_shutdown_of_1995
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Serapis

Serapis

Well-Known Member
Another example was I had blood in my urine or should I say I was peeing blood when I didn't have the cash to see my regular doctor so off the the Emergency room I went.
Three hours later I had a prescription for anti-biotic and a $3000 bill.
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That is a prime example of capitalism run amok.... if you don;t pay that bill, the tax payers will have to... isn't private medicine wonderful?
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
Serapis said:
It is scary if you are waiting on an IRS refund check, or if like my 70 year old Dad, you are waiting for your retirement check after serving your country for 30 years in the military. A lot of shit closes with the government, affecting a lot of people....

Read today the problem with budget is partly cuts, the GOP have added riders de-funding the new health care law, and Dems have said that is a non-starter. The GAO accounting shows savings of over 10 billion per year with the law as it was passed and the Dems are standing firm there. They have accepted over 50% of the proposed cuts and have called on the GOP to compromise. It's been suggested that the GOP has the tea party screaming so loudly in it's right ear, that the left ear can't hear the please of it's constituents. The GOP is looking to cut an additional 60 billion, some of it from programs that fund innovation and education. They are willing to de-fund our future to pay for the loose spending of their president's Bush & Reagan, two of the biggest debt spenders in US history.

The Dems can show they gave in some and compromised. Will the GOP be able to same the same at the end of the day?

I see another short term spending bill, with military funding continued through end of fiscal..... these congress people want to be home this weekend with families, so they'll pass something, watch...
Click to expand...
My entire point was that government shutdowns have occurred before and are nothing more than window dressing and political wrangling. They are always VERY temporary and usually have little effect on pensions and IRS refund checks. I would say to anyone "depending" on their IRS refund check................never mind. They probably wouldn't listen anyways.:-P I draw a government pension. I don't solely depend on it for mine or my family's sustinence. Hell, I couldn't depend on it solely for my family's sustinence! lol!:joint:
 
Mr Neutron

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Ernst said:
60 % & 70 % in the 50s,60s and 70s

So with over a Trillion dollars in tax breaks and such a low tax rate no wonder we are having problems.
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if you're talking only about the top rate, from 1950 to 1964 the top rate was 91% with two years ('52 & '53) at 92%
'64 it went to 77%, '65 to 70% until '82 when it dropped to 50%
 
N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Ernst said:
Shutting down the Government means all our Military stops getting paid mid-cycle.

So all our war efforts come to a halt.

The Funny part is this is the 2011 budget. We haven't even got to the 2012 budget.
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no it doesn't, the contract you sign with the military has no compensation clause. They don't HAVE to pay you diddly. Soldiers will still be on the job.
 
Dan Kone

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
MuyLocoNC said:
Fine, you want to raise the top tax to 39%, it's a fact it will only generate about 43 billion dollars. I say pointless, but say we concede the point and you get it, what about the other $105+ trillion in documented, unfunded liabilities?
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Good point. Let's raise it to 60%. Then we'll have a surplus. No need to cut services to the middle class and poor then.

Obviously there is no way to erase the deficit in less than 10-20 years. But ending/reforming entitlements is the ONLY way to put a real dent in our spending and start doing ANYTHING positive.
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Or have a tax schedule like we had in the 60's. The assumption that the debt problem is a sending problem is a false one. You can't keep cutting taxes and then wonder why the budget isn't balanced. We didn't have a budget problem when we taxed the rich at a higher level.
 
M

mihjaro

Active Member
"Government Shutdown" is the scary meme of the week.

If the Dems are so concerned why didn't they pass a budget when they had super majorities in both houses of Congress AND the presidency?
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I'm almost positive the US govt. had budgets in 2009 and 2010 if these are the years to which you are referring. The "supermajority" was only for 4 months or so back in 2009, IIRC. A time period which didn't coincide with the time frame of the budgeting process. Amazing, then, that they were able to keep the government operational with a simple majority. Those wily Dems. You really just can't trust them when all is said and done.
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
Ernst said:
My experience with private sector is that when they are done with you they fire you and say it isn't their problem that you go hungry and homeless.

So why would we be better off with Private sector control of our lives?

Another example was I had blood in my urine or should I say I was peeing blood when I didn't have the cash to see my regular doctor so off the the Emergency room I went.
Three hours later I had a prescription for anti-biotic and a $3000 bill.

I figure if private sector was in charge then we could expect any rule of law that keeps those with power and wealth in power and in wealth.
The pushing for laws which keep some in power and wealth is our real problem in Congress anyway.

Let the Bush Tax cuts expire.
Raise the top Rate to 70%
Cut the 1 Trillion in Tax Breaks.
Close tax loopholes.

I think that will solve the budget problem.

When I am faced with struggle people tell me to get up and get going rather than sit around and bitch.
Time for us to get up and pay our tab!
Click to expand...
Life is a cold hearted bitch sometimes isn't she (It's ok, we've all been shit on before:hug:)? Doubtful a cap on "private wealth" would have much effect on that. Raise the tax rate on the wealthy? Great! Close tax loopholes? Great! You said the same thing (Bush tax cuts) essentially 3 times so I won't address that part. lol! We're still not there now are we? By my calculations, and I suck at math, we're still not even CLOSE! The private sector is what generates wealth, not governments. They simply take it from someone and redistribute it to others who, for whatever reason, cannot provide for themselves (of course they do other things that governments SHOULD be doing like roads/infrastructure, defense, etc.). You do realize you are asking the fox to guard the henhouse don't you? We cannot trust governments, any government with too much centralized power. You are asking politicians to cut their own throats! Won't happen! Raise the tax rate on themselves like that? You are joking, right? No, you probably aren't joking. Oh well, I can try.............:wall:
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
Obama made a really good point when he said this is last years business. He's right.

If the Democrat-majority Congress had passed a budget like they were supposed to do, there would be no need for these silly continuing resolutions. There would be no talk of an imminent shutdown now.

All you Donks should remember that if it does happen.

Ha ha!
 
Dan Kone

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
Johnnyorganic said:
Obama made a really good point when he said this is last years business. He's right.

If the Democrat-majority Congress had passed a budget like they were supposed to do, there would be no need for these silly continuing resolutions. There would be no talk of an imminent shutdown now.

All you Donks should remember that if it does happen.

Ha ha!
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Very good point.

It's still absurd that tea baggers are pulling this crap, but you're right. They are only able to pull it off due to democratic incompetence.
 
MrDank007

MrDank007

Well-Known Member
Johnnyorganic said:
Obama made a really good point when he said this is last years business. He's right.

If the Democrat-majority Congress had passed a budget like they were supposed to do, there would be no need for these silly continuing resolutions. There would be no talk of an imminent shutdown now.

All you Donks should remember that if it does happen.


Ha ha!
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Maybe he will get around to the economy and serious about the nation's debt before he starts campaigning for the next election. WHOOPS!
 
Mr Neutron

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
doc111 said:
(of course they do other things that governments SHOULD be doing like roads/infrastructure, defense, etc.).
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but they're not really taking care of that either, are they? roads are in need of repair not to mention the bridges, where is all the gasoline tax $?
whatever you, you impede... you want to cut down on cigarette consumption, raise the tax, gasoline, income, whatever... if you tax it, it will shrink
 
N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
mihjaro said:
There are so, so many counterexamples to choose from so I'll just pick the first one that popped into my head; Hoover Dam.
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Please explain how the Government is making profit off of the hoover dam. You do know that the sale of power is still being used to pay off the loan it took to build the thing right? The loan for the dam won't be paid off until 2037. Besides power generation was only a secondary reason for building the dam in the first place.
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
Mr Neutron said:
but they're not really taking care of that either, are they? roads are in need of repair not to mention the bridges, where is all the gasoline tax $?
whatever you, you impede... you want to cut down on cigarette consumption, raise the tax, gasoline, income, whatever... if you tax it, it will shrink
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Totally agree. They are doing a shit job at pretty much ALL of government's basic, intended functions. They are doing a hell of a job bombing and killing brown people! J/K! :-P

mihjaro said:
There are so, so many counterexamples to choose from so I'll just pick the first one that popped into my head; Hoover Dam.
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I'm not seeing any links or sources showing the Hoover dam to be a profitable venture. We'll just assume you're correct. That's one example out of ???? The Hoover dam project (actually building it) was a joint venture between private construction companies and the government. Generating wealth and profits are not what governments were designed or intended to do. If SOME government projects turn out to be profitable, GREAT! Most of them don't.:-(
 
N

newatit2010

Well-Known Member
ERNST; For your next post I think you should ask for ways to fix the economy. Every body could give their ideas and we all could have the economy fixed before the politicians get their heads out of their asses. Just to show that the American people know better than politicians.
 
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