Calling all gene experts .....gather around

ALCAN said:

Good posts. It makes perfect sense . Now , I recall reading in a seed website that the mother plant will pass on potency . While the father will give the plant structure and and size. Is this a general rule or just something the seed sellers were peddling as hard fact ? I would think that potency and size could be derived from either parent.

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Either plant.

urban1026835 said:

i am running my first s1 now of casey jones s1 true cannabliss cut so i am hoping to see a good bit of similarity to a well documented cut.

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It's unlikely to be much like the parent plant or to be stable unless the parent plant is really homogenous - which is really really unlikely.

OGEvilgenius said:

It's unlikely to be much like the parent plant or to be stable unless the parent plant is really homogenous - which is really really unlikely.

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So a self-pollinated Exodus Kush from DNA, because it hermaphrodited due to an environmental stress isn't a "stable" strain, because it was a hermie? And all its seeds will most likely be unstable? What about it I cross one of its S1 seeds with a stable female, that will bring more stability into the strain? Thanks

It's also unlikely the Exodus Kush will be a stable line. Assuming the parents of Exodus Kush were both stable lines - and when I stay stable it has absolutely nothing to do with hermaphroditic tendencies (plants can be stable for those traits too but they are undesirable) - then you would have what could be considered a true F1. If you self any plant from that line it will result in expressing phenotypes ranging from both parents to everything in between. It will essentially be an F2.

The reason it would show* many phenotypes is because each side of it's genetic code is different with different degrees of expression or dominance. The reason the F1 would be relatively stable is because only the dominant expressions would show up in that first cross. The second cross shows you recessive expressions as well as everything else in between.

Look into Mendel and Punnets Squares to get a better idea, the link posted here earlier in this thread is a good one.

ALCAN said:

Ok, so I have this scenario vis a vis strain genetics and lets see where it goes. I have often wondered how much exactly of parental traits are passed on in hyrid strains. Lets look at this example shall we: A (almost 100% sativa) x B ( almost 100% indica ) .

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First of all, if you were to cross a "pure" (aka inbred) Sativa A with a pure Indica A, the resultant F1 plants should all look similar with minimal pheno variation.

Now we observe that the resulting pheno displayed is very definitely following in A footsteps. Pheno is very sativa and shares same growth characteristics as A. Would it be now safe to say that since the little one is looking just like A , that taste and potency will be similar to A.

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Absolutely NOT.

All genetic traits of interest assort independently. Things like height and plant structure are controlled by multiple genes. Potency is also controlled by multiple OTHER genes affecting trichrome size, trichrome DENSITY (number per square mm of calyx surface) and cannabinoid content/ratios. Smell and taste, again, are things controlled by multiple also-different genes.

The point is, you can't judge the potency of a plant by its appearance, taste or smell. Just because a plant has SOME traits of one parent, or even MOST of them, you can't just assume it will have all of them. It might. . .but it also might not.

Or, are growth characteristics separate from taste and potency?.

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This.

That being such that even though the pheno looks sativa there very well be an equal chance that taste and potency could follow B ( the almost pure indica) .

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See above.

No, not an "equal" chance. Because multiple genes are involved, this isn't as simple as a one-gene 25-50-25% Mendellian trait.

Because of genetic assortment its also entirely possible that the potency of a cross like this could be HIGHER than BOTH parents (eg so called "hybrid vigor") or (in rare cases) LOWER than both parents. Think about it. . .where did super-high potency strains come from in the first place?

On taste, its fairly likely that it will be different than BOTH parents, and in some cases substantially different. Again, because taste is a product of multiple components, mixing genetics there can create novel combinations.

ALCAN said:

Good posts. It makes perfect sense . Now , I recall reading in a seed website that the mother plant will pass on potency . While the father will give the plant structure and and size. Is this a general rule or just something the seed sellers were peddling as hard fact ? I would think that potency and size could be derived from either parent.

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Its BS, and you are correct.

If this were true then cross of landrace A (m) x landrace B (f) should yield totally different results than cross of landrace B (m) x landrace A (f).

We know this isn't true.

heelzballer said:

So a self-pollinated Exodus Kush from DNA, because it hermaphrodited due to an environmental stress isn't a "stable" strain, because it was a hermie?

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"Stable"/"unstable" just refers to how uniform the plants genetic loci are, it has nothing to do with whether a plant is stressed or hermie.

Oversimplifying, inbred lines are "stable" and hybrids are "unstable".

Whether or not any given strain is "stable" depends on how it was bred and what its parents are.

In this case, since Exodus Kush is an F1 hybrid of two unstable parents (Exodus Cheese and OG Kush) any offspring of this plant x itself (S1 or not) will be unstable.

And all its seeds will most likely be unstable?

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Yes, though this doesn't mean the ceeds themselves can't grow into excellent plants.

What about it I cross one of its S1 seeds with a stable female, that will bring more stability into the strain? Thanks

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"More stable", yes, but not totally stable unless you further worked the line. In any case, by doing this you'd effectively be creating an entirely new line.

heelzballer said:

I really enjoy the genetics side of cannabis, particularly in light of the high costs of cannabis seeds, the risk of seizure, and the apparent inconsistent genetics of some, but not all seed companies...The search bar on RIU, is iffy at best, does anyone know any really good threads to look at for getting started with breeding? Until then, this is a good thread on traits to look for with male plants, the idea of self-pollination, hermaphrodited seeds which is what happened with my exodus kush and I'm running some of those seeds now to look for phenotypes...Does the smell coming off a male plant in veg state give any insight into good genetics I have one that seems to smell more than the others right now?

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Just to be clear here, "breeding" (mixing traits from different lines to create new ones) is different than "se-ed making".

Making se-eds is one part of breeding, but there is a *LOT* more to it than that.

My suggestion is, if you want to be self-sufficient with se-eds, you don't need to do any actual "breeding". Just find an INBRED/TRUE BREEDING line that you love, cross a good male and good female, and you should have enough beans to last you for several years.

Assuming you do start with a good inbred line, the ceeds you create this way should be similar to the parents.

So Jogro, because my exodus kush was a self pollinated plant, than those seeds are from an inbred line? Or the reason exodus kush is an unstable plant to begin with, was because it was a feminized seed bred from a male and a female, instead are more stable regular seed? At least its good to hear that I may have an excellent chance to have some of those selfed seeds be productive yielders as they are about to be flipped to flower in the very near future. Would you recommend something like a 100 percent sativa like C99 to breed with one of the male exodus kush plants? Or perhaps a more indica leaning plant like Ice Cream or Critical Sensi Star...I would like to have more seeds on hand to use instead of the costly process of purchasing seeds, as well as stressfully always trying to maintain mothers. Thanks

the ability to forcast progeny thru dominate and recessive alleles is a science unto itself . but beyond the sativa indica debate i have seen in my crosses the female gives the structure and the male flowering time . the rest seems to mix up alot!!

heelzballer said:

So Jogro, because my exodus kush was a self pollinated plant, than those seeds are from an inbred line?

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No. This has nothing to do with self- vs non-self pollinization.

An inbred line is a line that has been bred to its own siblings for many generations, to the point where all plants from that line are similar.
Its the opposite of a "hybrid".

Your Exodus kush is a cross between two different and unrelated plants, therefore its a hybrid (and not inbred).

Making this a little more simple (and deliberately oversimplified):

Stable = inbred = true-breeding
Unstable = hybrid

Or the reason exodus kush is an unstable plant to begin with, was because it was a feminized seed bred from a male and a female, instead are more stable regular seed? At least its good to hear that I may have an excellent chance to have some of those selfed seeds be productive yielders as they are about to be flipped to flower in the very near future. Would you recommend something like a 100 percent sativa like C99 to breed with one of the male exodus kush plants? Or perhaps a more indica leaning plant like Ice Cream or Critical Sensi Star...I would like to have more seeds on hand to use instead of the costly process of purchasing seeds, as well as stressfully always trying to maintain mothers. Thanks

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I can't tell you what you like, or what's appropriate for your space/style/needs.

What I will tell you is the following.

If you want to create a whole bunch of se-eds where every one of them will grow in a predictable fashion into somewhat similar plants, then you need to either cross a male and a female from the SAME inbred line or cross a male and a female from two different inbred lines to create uniform F1 hybrid plants. If you start with inbred lines as parents (either one or two) then all the offspring will be similar to each other.

If you like indicas, for example, I'd suggest finding a "pure" indica that you like and inbreed it to create a pound of se-eds (Williams wonder is one I like, but there are any number of these, including Afghan #1, etc). If you like sativas, you could do the same with a good stable hybridized sativa (Skunk is one good example, AK-47 another)

Thank you Jogro, very informative...Essentially inbred lines are typically the most generalized strains ala Afghani, Skunk, Haze, etc..Most other crossed breeds out there will have been hybridized along with the way and this becoming less inbred and therefore typically less stabilized. But if I did want to just use one of my self-pollinated exodus kush seeds that is male and cross it with a female of my choice, I'll get a crapload of seeds, but if I grew those out I would experience lots of potentially different phenotypes among them. Cool, thanks and I'll add Williams Wonder to wishlist on the 'tude. Recommend a good skunk to worth with btw?

I feel that the only true way to judge if a male is of high quality is to run some of his offspring and see what you get.

OGEvilgenius said:

As far as the relationship of various characteristics, there are some who suggest plants which grow less physical matter tend to produce more resin. But that's never been studied or proven. They may or may not be related depending on the genotypes is the real answer.

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I think its been "studied" empirically by thousands of years of human breeding for maximum potency.

I can see why this idea might be attractive (less leaf = more resin). . .but a moments reflection on experience should indicate that its false.

Are stretchy stemmy hemp plants the most potent? Of course not.
How about short ruderalis plants. Are they the most potent? Again, no.
Is it fair to say that in general, the most potent plants are the scrawniest lightest weight plants? Nope.
So I think its fair to conclude that there isn't a direct relationship between amount of leaf/stem and potency.

In general the plants that make a lot of cannabinoids do so because they've been selectively bred by people to do so. Its genetics.

GandalfdaGreen said:

I feel that the only true way to judge if a male is of high quality is to run some of his offspring and see what you get.

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Clearly that's the BEST way, but almost everyone is butting against space and plant counts as limiting factors, and if you have many males to select from, its going to be prohibitive to run crosses with all of them and compare. You have to narrow this down to a small number, which means you still have to do some selection on the males.

I'm not a breeder, but I know there are clues breeders use to try and select the best males; these are sort of "tricks of the trade" that come with experience:

-Flower clusters: You want larger numbers of flowers per node for denser/tighter buds in offspring.

-Resin: Males never have nearly as many trichomes as females, but if the males are putting out noticeable resin, that's considered a good sign.

-Structure: Parallels that in offspring. Most breeders are looking for short internodal spacing, but you may want more or less branchiness, etc.

-Vigor: Fast growth is desirable.

-Scent: Just like in females, this is a trait passed onto offspring.

DJ short on selecting males for breeding:

http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/2788.html


Selecting males

I prefer to remove all of the males from the grow-room to a separate, isolated space shortly after they declare their sex and well before they begin to shed pollen. A small space lit with simple fluorescent light will suffice for the males for the next few weeks. During this time the female buds will fatten with more flowers while your collection of males is selected down.

I generally employ a simple process of elimination while selecting males. First, any auto-flowering or very early-declared males are eliminated. (Auto-flowering means that male flowers form regardless of light cycle timing.) This is mainly to insure against hermaphroditism or unwanted flowering traits, but also as a means to insure quality. The very early declared males have a tendency to be less desirable in terms of their contributions to the quality of the finished product. (If you are trying to specifically create an early-flowering strain, then your priorities may be different.)

Next, any male plant that grows too tall or too fast is usually eliminated. The reason for this is that most plants which dedicate so much energy to fiber production generally are best for making fiber. The exception to this rule is when an over-productive plant also exhibits a number of the desirable characteristics mentioned later.

The next criteria for elimination is borrowed from Michael Starks' book, Marijuana Potency, and involves stem structure. Large, hollow main stems are sought while pith-filled stems are eliminated. Backed by years of observation, I agree that hollow stems do seem to facilitate THC production.

Another consideration is the type of floral clusters that develop. Even on males, clusters which are tight, compact and yet very productive are desired over an airy, loose structure. These observations are most notable in the indoor environment. Outdoors, the differences in stem and floral structures are more difficult to discern.

The next and perhaps most important characteristic to examine is that of odor, flavor and trichome development. Again, the females will prove themselves by their finished product, but the males are a bit trickier.

I usually begin with a Sativa female and an Indica male. It has been my observation that the females primarily contribute the type of flavor and aroma and the males contribute the amount of flavor and odor. The "Sativa/Indica" aspects of this formula are mainly apparent in the P1 or very early filial crosses (to about f3). Beyond the f3 generation the apparent "Sativa/Indica" ratio in a given individual is less important than the odor/flavor and trichome development aspects it exhibits. Therefore, one of the main aspects to consider when selecting a male is the depth of its aroma and flavor. (If you are seeking to develop a low-odor indoor strain you might wish to begin with a low-odor Sativa male and an Indica female.)

With the remaining males I usually employ an odor/flavor test. Using males at least two or three weeks into the flowering cycle (and preferably beyond if a separate, isolated space is being used), a sort of "scratch-and-sniff" technique is first employed. With clean, odor-free fingers, gently rub one plant at a time, on the stem where it is well developed and pliable, above the woody part and below the developing top (approximately at the spot where a clone would be cut). The newer leaves at their halfway point of development may also be rubbed and sniffed.

These are the places that the earliest chemical signatures of a developing plant present themselves, and it is our intent to gently disturb these chemicals and inspire an odor/flavor reaction on the fingers and on the plant. By examining these various aromas in this way one may be able to determine certain desirable (and also undesirable) characteristics. After clearing one's palate and refreshing one's fingers, another plant may be tested.

The finalists are best compared for at least a week and at different times of day, to determine who performs best over a period of time.

A few of the "good" aromas which I have found to be associated with both male and female high quality cannabis are: sweet, floral, fruity, berry, wine/brandy, other savory spirits, skunky and spearmint. Some of the "bad" aromas associated with both male and female cannabis are: grassy, chlorophyll (green), celery, parsley, carrots, cinnamon, pepper-mint or wintergreen, gear-oil and gasoline. Some of the aromas that are considered "good" from females but not necessarily from males are: woody, cedar, pine, citrus, tropical fruit, chocolate, vanilla, coffee, garlic and astringent.

scratch and sniff males and peeping for tricombes . thats about where i am at . also on the lookout for perfect flowers had alot of hermi action from nevilles haze male crosses and from anything with c-99 in it.. weird my c-99 cut never flipped on me..

heelzballer said:

Thank you Jogro, very informative...Essentially inbred lines are typically the most generalized strains ala Afghani, Skunk, Haze, etc.

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Again, inbred lines are lines bred over many generations to ensure consistency. This has nothing to do with "generalized" or popularity.

Once upon a time, most breeders goal was to create new stable lines, and that's why most of the famous "name" strains from the past are inbred. "Landrace" strains (eg most strains named after a geographic location) are typically maintained by open outdoor pollenization and are typically inbred lines.

But if I did want to just use one of my self-pollinated exodus kush seeds that is male and cross it with a female of my choice, I'll get a crapload of seeds, but if I grew those out I would experience lots of potentially different phenotypes among them. Cool, thanks and I'll add Williams Wonder to wishlist on the 'tude. Recommend a good skunk to worth with btw?

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You're correct on the first count. That's what people mean by "unstable", just that if you were to cross a plant with itself you'd see a bunch of different types of offspring.

Lots of phenotypes isn't necessarily a bad thing, it depends a bit on what you're after. If you have the ability to grow out a number of plants at once, you might be able to find a really nice individual one then maintain that one by cloning.

So far as I know, the only one to currently offer a "pure" Williams Wonder in se-ed form is Sickmeds Se-eds out of Spain. To the best of my knowledge, Attitude doesn't stock Sickmeds beans, though the board seed sponsor (Sea of Seeds) does.

On Skunk, I can tell you what I've read/been told, but since I haven't grown one of these in many years, its effectively just hearsay. If you want better opinions, there are multiple threads open on the topic of Skunk, just use the search feature, pore over a few of them, and you'll get some good names. I think even today you could still do a lot worse than to just find a good pack of Skunk beans, cross a male and a female, then work with those.

Wow thanks everyone for the info posted here. I started the only ibl i have left which is sannies herijuana so after reading this i would say that's the best place to start with the genetics i currently own.
Haven't been able to do much research online lately with harvesting a few plants, and some shit at home but now that things have started to calm down i have my eye back on the prize which is a heri- everything. hairy grapes here i come

urban1026835 said:

Wow thanks everyone for the info posted here. I started the only ibl i have left which is sannies herijuana so after reading this i would say that's the best place to start with the genetics i currently own.

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I think that's probably right.

If you have a bunch of REGULAR herijuana beans, then you could cross a male and a female (ideally one you really liked) to create a large number of herijuana se-eds that would keep you in beans for a long, long time. That would be an easy thing to do.

The question really, is how much do you like this one? I think this one is a love it or hate it kind of line. Medical users typically like herijuana mostly for its effect; its got a potent indica-heavy effect bred specifically for pain relief. But a lot of people don't like the effect (ie puts them right to sleep), and neither the flavor nor the yield are particularly notable.

Since heri itself is stable, if you were to cross that one with something else, you should see a relatively limited number of phenos in the offspring.