Clarification on Back Crossing/Locking in genetics.

ÉsÇ420PoT™

ÉsÇ420PoT™

Well-Known Member
Hey guys! I'm sure there is a thread of this somewhere, so please forgive me if I am asking what has already been asked X amount of times prior. Maybe direct me to that particular thread please? However, from what I could find, I didnt find a clear cutt straight answer on how to exactly do this. Most information I came across, keep saying breed to the mother? This kinda confused by what exactly this means... Do I take seeds and then cross breed with only the mother? Or do I cross breed them with the offspring?

For example. This is how i've come to understand it, so please correct me. I have a male plant. Pollen sacs open, I grab the pollen in a bag.
Next, I put the bag of pollen, over the desired mother plant, shake it a bit, then remove the bag, let it do its thing. From here, it will produce seed, eventually matureing enough to where the seeds drop off.

Now this is where I am a bit confused... When people say cross with the mother. Wouldnt this so called "Mother" now be turned into seed?? Please clerify what exactly people are meaning.

As I am to understand it, I take some seed from the newly pollinated plant, and pop them. I then flower then, I pick out the best looking male and female of this new seed. I then Cross breed them with themselves. The seed that drops from this new cross breed, I now repeat, to lock in the nutrients, I now again grow the seed from this Xbreeded version, pick out the best male and female, then cross breed again. Bamb, 2-3 times and the genetics are locked in roughly. Is this correct? Am I understanding this correctly? Any constructive criticism is appreciated, thanks.
 
BobThe420Builder

BobThe420Builder

Well-Known Member
Not exactly

Your taking a new pheno every time you pollinate it in your post

Usually you will take say 10-20 seeds
Find the best pheno you like,male and female
Clone them (Fems),flower them, pic the best, then work with those clones to breed and try and zero in on the TRAITS you want to breed in or out
 
ÉsÇ420PoT™

ÉsÇ420PoT™

Well-Known Member
FOr sure thanks. So to make sure I understand this properly, the way you explained it, as I understand it, is I have Plant A that I like, (female), and I have a plant B that I like (Male) (let say Ive already done the sexting and I know these 2 are male and female and are mothers/fathers under veg.

I take clones from each. Both Male and Female plant. I then pick the best 1 of each male and female cuttings. I then flower these 2 together and cross breed them. Right? Ok so now this is the new strain. What Do I do from here to lock in the phenotypes?

Do I from here, take that new strain seeds, flower them, and then cross breed it again with the mother? So the new seeds that I now have, I would go for a male? Then again cross breed the male with the original mother? See this right here, is the part im having trouble understanding for some reason.... If you could please hold my hand and give me a very specific break down, I would seriously appreciate it. Thank you!
 
BobThe420Builder

BobThe420Builder

Well-Known Member
You need to FIND the pheno you want with the seeds you create

Then you start back crossing


Google it, yer still not on track with your thinking
Lots of good article to help u understand
 
Richard Drysift

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
ÉsÇ420PoT™ said:
Hey guys! I'm sure there is a thread of this somewhere, so please forgive me if I am asking what has already been asked X amount of times prior. Maybe direct me to that particular thread please? However, from what I could find, I didnt find a clear cutt straight answer on how to exactly do this. Most information I came across, keep saying breed to the mother? This kinda confused by what exactly this means... Do I take seeds and then cross breed with only the mother? Or do I cross breed them with the offspring?

For example. This is how i've come to understand it, so please correct me. I have a male plant. Pollen sacs open, I grab the pollen in a bag.
Next, I put the bag of pollen, over the desired mother plant, shake it a bit, then remove the bag, let it do its thing. From here, it will produce seed, eventually matureing enough to where the seeds drop off.

Now this is where I am a bit confused... When people say cross with the mother. Wouldnt this so called "Mother" now be turned into seed?? Please clerify what exactly people are meaning.

As I am to understand it, I take some seed from the newly pollinated plant, and pop them. I then flower then, I pick out the best looking male and female of this new seed. I then Cross breed them with themselves. The seed that drops from this new cross breed, I now repeat, to lock in the nutrients, I now again grow the seed from this Xbreeded version, pick out the best male and female, then cross breed again. Bamb, 2-3 times and the genetics are locked in roughly. Is this correct? Am I understanding this correctly? Any constructive criticism is appreciated, thanks.
Click to expand...
Nothing is locked in; especially not nutrients. What you are talking about is back crossing but it is not a requirement if you just want seeds. There is a lot more involved than what you described; some breeders take 100 seeds and number them in order to isolate all known phenotypes. In other words would only back cross if you had known phenotypes you wanted to continue the lineage/traits of. And the space, and the time to grow them out and identify each one. Each seed you pop will be different slightly; sorta like a litter of puppies.
You don’t really need to backcross in order to keep strains you like. Should be noted that back crossing can increase likelihood of recessive genetic issues like hermaphroditism if somewhere in the lineage the strains were prone to stuff like that. To breed strains that are stable stability must be known; you cannot “breed out“ certain traits. That’s why pheno hunting is kind of a must if you plan to backcross a genetic line.
It may be better to just simply cross the strains in your garden that you know well and want to keep. Then you’ll have F1 hybrid seeds that are stable even though they will be just crosses. Not really a new strain but the offspring will still have characteristics of both strains. Each seed will be a slightly different pheno; then just find a mother plant you like and clone her.
All you need is one strong and stinky male to seed out a whole crop. Collect pollen by shaking the whole plant or branch in a ziplock bag or something once the flowers open. Save the pollen in the fridge. Paint the buds with it. Seed making is easy but “breeding“ is hard. Keep it simple.
 
Richard Drysift

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
ÉsÇ420PoT™ said:
FOr sure thanks. So to make sure I understand this properly, the way you explained it, as I understand it, is I have Plant A that I like, (female), and I have a plant B that I like (Male) (let say Ive already done the sexting and I know these 2 are male and female and are mothers/fathers under veg.

I take clones from each. Both Male and Female plant. I then pick the best 1 of each male and female cuttings. I then flower these 2 together and cross breed them. Right? Ok so now this is the new strain. What Do I do from here to lock in the phenotypes?

Do I from here, take that new strain seeds, flower them, and then cross breed it again with the mother? So the new seeds that I now have, I would go for a male? Then again cross breed the male with the original mother? See this right here, is the part im having trouble understanding for some reason.... If you could please hold my hand and give me a very specific break down, I would seriously appreciate it. Thank you!
Click to expand...
You can take cuttings and cross those of you want but that’s an extra step...why clone out a male? All you need is a single branch. Whatever you do don’t try to cross any plants that were from feminized seeds; that will put the recessive hermaphroditism gene into the mix. They will herm out easily. Cross only plants from regular seeds.
 
ÉsÇ420PoT™

ÉsÇ420PoT™

Well-Known Member
Richard Drysift said:
You can take cuttings and cross those of you want but that’s an extra step...why clone out a male? All you need is a single branch. Whatever you do don’t try to cross any plants that were from feminized seeds; that will put the recessive hermaphroditism gene into the mix. They will herm out easily. Cross only plants from regular seeds.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your response!
However, I do want to clarify I am well aware of what back crossing does and the reasoning behind it. To basically keep the traits very similar through all seed production. Keeping them similar to the original, being consistent with its production outcome. Honeing in one the desired dominant traits and minimizing the recessive genes. Forgive me if I said "Locked in nutrients" What I meant is "Locking in pheno types". Thank you for sharing that information, but all I really was curious about, is how to properly back cross a new strain that has been created?

Some of your responses are asking me 'Why do this" Well, like I've stated I am not very knowledgeable about breeding. I havent done anything yet, these are just me expressing perspectives as I understand them. Thus, why I have asked to be corrected lol. So to answer your questions, I don't know why one would do that, as I was asking out of trail and errors of rights and wrongs ;).

Now with that said, I dont want seeds, I want a new strain. I actually have pollen from a very desirable male. And was planning on breeding it with another sought after female strain of mine. The dilemma, is I want to back cross it atleast once or twice. As I feel this should be a rule of thumb on ANY new strain..

Are you saying I dont need to do this? I could just pollinate my female and the seeds from that new strain should suffice? I have read that you always want to backcross, or line breed, etc, to lock in the more dominant traits. Am I mistaken on this?

I do appreciate youre expression of what most professional breeders would do, duly noted. however, Im not looking to be a master breeder, at least not yet. I just simply want to make a new strain with some of genetics I currently have. I really don't have the knowledge or desire to take months of trail and error of dominate males vs females, and honing in perfect genetics. Im just a beginning breeder wanting a new strain lol! So the simplistic route, may suffice for me and most other new breeders who come across this thread.

I am aware of F1 Hybrids, and that is idealy what i was going for. However, the female (Although I have grown this strain for a while now and seems to be pretty solid genetics. I am not sure how stable the genetics will be if crossed. Thus I figured cross breeding again on top of my original new strain cross, would be necessary. Is this not the case? Would I be able to achieve F1 hybrids just by simple taking the pollen, put it on the desired female, and bamb, use those seeds? I feel these seeds will not be consistent.. I am not truly aware how stable the female strain is, thus, not sure if I can achieve an F1.

Any more insight is greatly appreciated, thanks very much!

Would you by chance please write out a step by step instructions on how you would cross breed? That would actually give me a lot of insight.
 
MoMoGrows

MoMoGrows

Well-Known Member
Just polinate a bud on the female you like. Grow those seeds, as it's your new strain. Want to keep the strain cuz it turned out well? Either clone it or let a male grow out and collect pollen and pollinate a bud on a female plant of the seeds you made. You now have seeds of your new strain. No back crossing needed.
 
ÉsÇ420PoT™

ÉsÇ420PoT™

Well-Known Member
MoMoGrows said:
Just polinate a bud on the female you like. Grow those seeds, as it's your new strain. Want to keep the strain cuz it turned out well? Either clone it or let a male grow out and collect pollen and pollinate a bud on a female plant of the seeds you made. You now have seeds of your new strain. No back crossing needed.
Click to expand...
THANK YOU! As you could tell I was getting a lot of mixed information. Or maybe I was just overloading myself and unnecessarily confusing myself.. Regardless, this explained everything I was hoping for! Thank you!

Another question, would the offspring be considered F1 Hybrids?
 
Richard Drysift

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
ÉsÇ420PoT™ said:
Thanks for your response!
However, I do want to clarify I am well aware of what back crossing does and the reasoning behind it. To basically keep the traits very similar through all seed production. Keeping them similar to the original, being consistent with its production outcome. Honeing in one the desired dominant traits and minimizing the recessive genes. Forgive me if I said "Locked in nutrients" What I meant is "Locking in pheno types". Thank you for sharing that information, but all I really was curious about, is how to properly back cross a new strain that has been created?

Some of your responses are asking me 'Why do this" Well, like I've stated I am not very knowledgeable about breeding. I havent done anything yet, these are just me expressing perspectives as I understand them. Thus, why I have asked to be corrected lol. So to answer your questions, I don't know why one would do that, as I was asking out of trail and errors of rights and wrongs ;).

Now with that said, I dont want seeds, I want a new strain. I actually have pollen from a very desirable male. And was planning on breeding it with another sought after female strain of mine. The dilemma, is I want to back cross it atleast once or twice. As I feel this should be a rule of thumb on ANY new strain..

Are you saying I dont need to do this? I could just pollinate my female and the seeds from that new strain should suffice? I have read that you always want to backcross, or line breed, etc, to lock in the more dominant traits. Am I mistaken on this?

I do appreciate youre expression of what most professional breeders would do, duly noted. however, Im not looking to be a master breeder, at least not yet. I just simply want to make a new strain with some of genetics I currently have. I really don't have the knowledge or desire to take months of trail and error of dominate males vs females, and honing in perfect genetics. Im just a beginning breeder wanting a new strain lol! So the simplistic route, may suffice for me and most other new breeders who come across this thread.

I am aware of F1 Hybrids, and that is idealy what i was going for. However, the female (Although I have grown this strain for a while now and seems to be pretty solid genetics. I am not sure how stable the genetics will be if crossed. Thus I figured cross breeding again on top of my original new strain cross, would be necessary. Is this not the case? Would I be able to achieve F1 hybrids just by simple taking the pollen, put it on the desired female, and bamb, use those seeds? I feel these seeds will not be consistent.. I am not truly aware how stable the female strain is, thus, not sure if I can achieve an F1.

Any more insight is greatly appreciated, thanks very much!

Would you by chance please write out a step by step instructions on how you would cross breed? That would actually give me a lot of insight.
Click to expand...
An F1 hybrid is just a cross. Yes it is really that simple; should be fairly stable if the boy and girl plants you crossed were both stable to begin with. You do not need to back cross but if you do you may end up with something totally new. Genetic mutations aka recessed traits can occur when you isolate a gene pool but this is not necessarily a bad thing. There will be traits that are buried in the lineage that could emerge as more/less dominant depending upon what you cross with what. If you can identify the subtle changes in traits you can then choose which ones get carried on to the next generation. That is how you make a new strain. It can take several back crosses in order to achieve the desired result/traits through genetic selection; nobody can tell you how exactly many times it will take because that is really up to you.
 
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