complete darkness ????

TWS said:

So now we know Terpines increase at night, Male plants can have trichomes, and Pistils are the stamina that pollinates the calyx on a female pot plant, and trichomes protect the plant from sun and bugs and maybe, just maybe, help attract pollen. wow. Pretty much everything the doc doesn't seem to agree with except the last part.

Click to expand...

"we" do not "know" that terpene levels increase at night.

i can categorically state that all kitchen herbs are LESS fragrant from around noon till just before the next dawn. this is well recognized. every herbal, gardening manual botany text and how-to pamphlet on fragrant herbs agrees on that point, and this is something I KNOW from personal experience. this does not imply the WE know this is true, since you can either take my word for it (along with every book on growing and tending kitchen herbs ever writ, from Pliny to Martha Stewart) or you may disbelieve it, it's all the same to me, however, when you begin to offer up counterfactual assertions, and fabricate strawmen on this subject i will of course dispute your claims.

you seem to be labouring under the impression that all trichomes are the same, in form and function, regardless of which species of plant they are found on, where on the plant they are found, or how they act and react to stimuli.

this is far from true. heres a quick examination of just a few of the trichome structures found on some plants and their functions.

tomatoes:

long thick spiny trichomes all along the limbs and stems, all over the foliage and all the way ip to the start of the flowering bodies: Proto-rootlets which will form actual roots when exposed to darkness moisture and cool temps.
tiny glandular trichomes on all exposed tissues save the fruits: terpene glands which produce an insect and herbivore repellant aroma when disturbed
tiny glandular trichomes on the exposed surfaces of the leafs: alkaloid secreting glands which cause a bitter taste and toxic reactions amongst all but a very few insects and browsers.

thats 3 types of trichomes, each with a different job different structure and found on different locations on a single plant, and theres lots more just on a tomatoe plant, but lets move on...

Thistle and stinging nettle:

long stiff bristles on every exposed surface of the plant, but in greatest numbers on the calyx, and in greater numbers as the fertilized calyx develops and swells: venom tipped glandular needles to irritate browsing critters and discourage nibbling

cacti: long stiff sharp spines all over the plant, usually in greatest profusion around the calyx, and often produced in greater numbers as seeds develop: thorns. for direct defense from browsing herbivores.

sundews and most carnivorous plants:

glandular trichomes on the foliage and false flowers: sticky resinous nodules to trap animals and insects which contact the resinous glands
stiff short hairlike trichomes in the foliage and psuedoflowers: sensory organs which detect contact and cause the frond to curl in, or the psuedo-flower to close on the assuredly delicious prey
excretory trichomes around the foliage and the psuedo-flowers: excretes digestive acids and enzymes to dissolve the captured prey and extract it's juicy goodness
excretory trichomes: scent releasing glands which provide an enticing aroma and the promise of a free meal to nectar seeking insects, and sometimes, a foul rotting meat stench to attract scavenging critters depending on the species.

and yes, the savvy reader see that NONE yet are involved in reproduction. how odd.

but as has often been noted, cannabis is an ODD PLANT which does many things in a manner which other plants DO NOT.

it is a Gymnosperm, which most plants are NOT
it is dioecious, which most plants are not
it is photoperiod dependent which most plants are not
it is wind pollinated, which most plants are not.
it produces powerful chemicals which interact with the central nervous system of mammals, which most plants do not.


if it were just like most plants, you would likely not give a shit about it would you? or have you spent time pondering the lifecycle of the Japanese Maple or the lowly Maize plant and are just keeping that shit on the low-low?

Doc your post and info are well taking points and all though everyone does not agree are still good reads. It's when you start to be little people or post sarcastic post that the weight behind them or respect for your opinion starts to fall out. IMO

TWS said:

Doc your post and info are well taking points and all though everyone does not agree are still good reads. It's when you start to be little people or post sarcastic post that the weight behind them or respect for your opinion starts to fall out. IMO

Click to expand...

it gets my dander up when somebody says "read up on botany" and makes claims that imply all trichomes are the same regardless of what plant they are on, where they are located, how they react and what form they take.

the reiteration of the vague statements implying that ALL trichomes are a deterrent to insects and herbivores, and the absurd claim about cannabis' resin secreting trichomes being some kind of protection from the sun are not simply ridiculous, but just straight up WRONG.

ALL trichomes are not anything except that they are all trichomes. they serve many functions take many forms and are found on all species of plants (if there's a plant which doesnt have these structures it's news to me)

if one made a similar argument about the male penis it would go as follows:

Dickless Dave: "the penis is NOT a sexual organ, the erect penis is a warning display and offensive weapon used to stab, jab and bash competing males into submission. it serves no function in actual reproduction, and as proof, juvenile males have penises too! as do elderly males which are no longer capable of reproduction! the penis is NOT reproductive at all, and your claims of sexual function of the penis are bullshit."

The penis is NOT exclusively associated with balls, since even eunuchs have penises despite their lack of testicles! Intellectual Checkmate!
The penis's erect nature before intercourse, and flaccid collapse afterward are IRRELEVANT!
The penis's direct and obvious use in the act of mating is entirely fabricated, since fish, plants, most insects and most microorganisms reproduce without any penetration at all, and without penises!
If penises were so important to reproduction, why do gay men have them, and lesbians do not?? Intellectual Checkmate!
elephant's trunks, and the horns and tails of many creatures are also long, cylindrical, and protuberant, are these all used in mating as well? i think not! Intellectual Checkmate!
Horses have hooves and cows sleep standing up, therefore you are wrong!

Ballsy Bill: ???? Teh Fux? Are you on crack?

Dickless Dave: U R Racist!! Mods Ban Him!

kpmarine said:

Prove him wrong. Show THC% for seeded and unseeded bud. That would put all this to rest. While you may not like his theory; none of the others are any more studied and proven, that I know of.

Click to expand...

Ok here you go...the second one was seeded with sts induced pollen to sell at the disp. I consult to on contract. I wanted to give them away but they are insistent upon selling so I made them pay me.
Clones from same mother in both runs
http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1102675987015-267/NM_BD16_12_28_12.pdf
http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1102675987015-295/NM_BD18_3_19_13.pdf

They argued me down about this and uvb until these tests showed truth

Sensi is not to increase potency it is to decrease loss to seeds in useable product weight

It is known as the "breeder scam" They sell the sensi and seeds and smoke the seeded bud themselves as they know it is better.

"Capitate-Stalked:"

"Cannabinoids are most abundant in the capitate-stalked gland which consists of a tier of secretory disc cells subtending a large non-cellular secretory cavity. During flowering the capitate glands that appear on the newly formed plant parts take on a third form. Some of the glands are raised to a height of 150 to 500 micron when their stalks elongate. These capitate-stalked glands appear during flowering and form their densest cover on the female flower bracts. They are also highly concentrated on the small leaves that accompany the flowers. The male flowers have stalked glands on the sepals, but they are smaller and less concentrated than on the female bracts. Male flowers form a row of very large capitate glands along the opposite sides of anthers." ~from your own citation... did you even read it?

Yes I did read it. Notice is says the male plant has them as well. If thier for pollen collection, why would they form on the male plant?

"and yes, the savvy reader see that NONE yet are involved in reproduction. how odd.

but as has often been noted, cannabis is an ODD PLANT which does many things in a manner which other plants DO NOT."

"it gets my dander up when somebody says "read up on botany" and makes claims that imply all trichomes are the same regardless of what plant they are on, where they are located, how they react and what form they take."

"conifers do it, ginko biloba does it, hops do it, hackberry does it, even ordinary flowers produce sticky resin on and around their female structures, but they can be more targeted in their resin production by using pollinators"

"specific to pine trees, as mentioned before but heres the relevant bit:

4. Pollination in gymnosperms involves a pollination droplet that protrudes from the micropyle when pollen grains are being shed. The droplet provides a large, sticky surface that catches the normally wind-borne pollen grains of gymnosperms so that the ovule is more likely to be fertilized. After pollination the droplet evaporates and contracts, carrying the pollen grains into the pollen chamber and into contact with the ovule."

Isn't this useing other plants as examples and saying marijuana does the same thing? Also, I never said "read up on botany". If you referring to my question about you haveing a degree in botany, that was NOT meant to be derogatory. It was an honest question. Anyone with that much knowledge about flora is obviously very well read and possibly has a degree relating to the subject. I have not said one rude thing to or about you, yet you seem to be quite disparaging. As I said before, I don't care what the intended purpose of marijuanas production of trichomes and resin is. The only thing I care about is thier ability to relieve my depression, back pain, knee pain and migraines. And so, I will take my leave of this pointless arguement. Happy Growing.

He just reads alot of search engines and copies and pastes irrelevancies skewed to fit his propaganda...he's an internet politician

Shit.. while we're going to argue, I'll throw more stuff into the mix. Which one of the 3 types of trichomes that exist on a cannabis plant are even being discussed? Are they being grouped into 1, as if all have the same purpose?

raven1290 said:

"Capitate-Stalked:"

"Cannabinoids are most abundant in the capitate-stalked gland which consists of a tier of secretory disc cells subtending a large non-cellular secretory cavity. During flowering the capitate glands that appear on the newly formed plant parts take on a third form. Some of the glands are raised to a height of 150 to 500 micron when their stalks elongate. These capitate-stalked glands appear during flowering and form their densest cover on the female flower bracts. They are also highly concentrated on the small leaves that accompany the flowers. The male flowers have stalked glands on the sepals, but they are smaller and less concentrated than on the female bracts. Male flowers form a row of very large capitate glands along the opposite sides of anthers." ~from your own citation... did you even read it?

Yes I did read it. Notice is says the male plant has them as well. If thier for pollen collection, why would they form on the male plant?

"and yes, the savvy reader see that NONE yet are involved in reproduction. how odd.

but as has often been noted, cannabis is an ODD PLANT which does many things in a manner which other plants DO NOT."

"it gets my dander up when somebody says "read up on botany" and makes claims that imply all trichomes are the same regardless of what plant they are on, where they are located, how they react and what form they take."

"conifers do it, ginko biloba does it, hops do it, hackberry does it, even ordinary flowers produce sticky resin on and around their female structures, but they can be more targeted in their resin production by using pollinators"

"specific to pine trees, as mentioned before but heres the relevant bit:

4. Pollination in gymnosperms involves a pollination droplet that protrudes from the micropyle when pollen grains are being shed. The droplet provides a large, sticky surface that catches the normally wind-borne pollen grains of gymnosperms so that the ovule is more likely to be fertilized. After pollination the droplet evaporates and contracts, carrying the pollen grains into the pollen chamber and into contact with the ovule."

Isn't this useing other plants as examples and saying marijuana does the same thing? Also, I never said "read up on botany". If you referring to my question about you haveing a degree in botany, that was NOT meant to be derogatory. It was an honest question. Anyone with that much knowledge about flora is obviously very well read and possibly has a degree relating to the subject. I have not said one rude thing to or about you, yet you seem to be quite disparaging. As I said before, I don't care what the intended purpose of marijuanas production of trichomes and resin is. The only thing I care about is thier ability to relieve my depression, back pain, knee pain and migraines. And so, I will take my leave of this pointless arguement. Happy Growing.

Click to expand...

There was a study way back on the now defunct OG.com that demonstrated the beneficial cannabinoid increase of 72 days darkness drill prior to chop...Hypothesized that the abscence of degradation due to light the causation...way I look at it is it costs nothing and is too minor a thing for me to worry bout testing so I employ it...also a good time to give 'em a naturalistic cold snap...am too invloved in environmental cannabinoid ratio manipulation testing currently

Figong said:

Shit.. while we're going to argue, I'll throw more stuff into the mix. Which one of the 3 types of trichomes that exist on a cannabis plant are even being discussed? Are they being grouped into 1, as if all have the same purpose?

Click to expand...

raven1290 said:

"Capitate-Stalked:"

Click to expand...

The above I presume

Kite High said:

The above I presume

Click to expand...

Makes sense, as that's the one that pops during flower only.. that said, am going to catch up on the rest of it before I comment.. let me read a few pages back.

Long story short, complete darkness can't do much of anything, and here's why.. Plastids and phenos will work their way up the stalk of the trichomes, and combine in the secretory cavity. When said combination is hit with UV-B, it causes the creation of cannabinoids. Everything psychoreactive that is cannabis-related is for the most part concentrated inside said trichomes. That said, I'd like to ask anyone, anyone at all... to try to explain to me how lack of light makes things better when you should be keeping the HPS, or HPS with UV-B / far reds on the plant until the last minute, just pre-chop for maximum cannabinoid production.

Kite High said:

Ok here you go...the second one was seeded with sts induced pollen to sell at the disp. I consult to on contract. I wanted to give them away but they are insistent upon selling so I made them pay me.
Clones from same mother in both runs
http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1102675987015-267/NM_BD16_12_28_12.pdf
http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1102675987015-295/NM_BD18_3_19_13.pdf

They argued me down about this and uvb until these tests showed truth

Sensi is not to increase potency it is to decrease loss to seeds in useable product weight

It is known as the "breeder scam" They sell the sensi and seeds and smoke the seeded bud themselves as they know it is better.

Click to expand...

While this is interesting, and definitely seems to warrant further investigation; it needs more controls. I assume all the environmental conditions were the same, but there's no way to tell that everything was as identical as possible. If you could replicate this same result again. With the seeded and unseeded plants in the same room at the same time; you would totally have something. I would totally say you have an interesting experiment in the making, though.

Figong said:

Long story short, complete darkness can't do much of anything, and here's why.. Plastids and phenos will work their way up the stalk of the trichomes, and combine in the secretory cavity. When said combination is hit with UV-B, it causes the creation of cannabinoids. Everything psychoreactive that is cannabis-related is for the most part concentrated inside said trichomes. That said, I'd like to ask anyone, anyone at all... to try to explain to me how lack of light makes things better when you should be keeping the HPS, or HPS with UV-B / far reds on the plant until the last minute, just pre-chop for maximum cannabinoid production.

Click to expand...

theres no uv in hps led mh cmh etc...has to be supplemented with uvb emitting sources

uvb influences synthase production of the psychoactives which leads to changes in the ratios

kp thats good enough for me...if you all want proof of what I already knew then you do it...too busy doing something that is showing great promise

Kite High said:

theres no uv in hps led etc

Click to expand...

MH and HPS both produce UV, last I checked.

raven1290 said:

"Capitate-Stalked:"

"Cannabinoids are most abundant in the capitate-stalked gland which consists of a tier of secretory disc cells subtending a large non-cellular secretory cavity. During flowering the capitate glands that appear on the newly formed plant parts take on a third form. Some of the glands are raised to a height of 150 to 500 micron when their stalks elongate. These capitate-stalked glands appear during flowering and form their densest cover on the female flower bracts. They are also highly concentrated on the small leaves that accompany the flowers. The male flowers have stalked glands on the sepals, but they are smaller and less concentrated than on the female bracts. Male flowers form a row of very large capitate glands along the opposite sides of anthers." ~from your own citation... did you even read it?

Yes I did read it. Notice is says the male plant has them as well. If thier for pollen collection, why would they form on the male plant?

"and yes, the savvy reader see that NONE yet are involved in reproduction. how odd.

but as has often been noted, cannabis is an ODD PLANT which does many things in a manner which other plants DO NOT."

"it gets my dander up when somebody says "read up on botany" and makes claims that imply all trichomes are the same regardless of what plant they are on, where they are located, how they react and what form they take."

"conifers do it, ginko biloba does it, hops do it, hackberry does it, even ordinary flowers produce sticky resin on and around their female structures, but they can be more targeted in their resin production by using pollinators"

"specific to pine trees, as mentioned before but heres the relevant bit:

4. Pollination in gymnosperms involves a pollination droplet that protrudes from the micropyle when pollen grains are being shed. The droplet provides a large, sticky surface that catches the normally wind-borne pollen grains of gymnosperms so that the ovule is more likely to be fertilized. After pollination the droplet evaporates and contracts, carrying the pollen grains into the pollen chamber and into contact with the ovule."

Isn't this useing other plants as examples and saying marijuana does the same thing? Also, I never said "read up on botany". If you referring to my question about you haveing a degree in botany, that was NOT meant to be derogatory. It was an honest question. Anyone with that much knowledge about flora is obviously very well read and possibly has a degree relating to the subject. I have not said one rude thing to or about you, yet you seem to be quite disparaging. As I said before, I don't care what the intended purpose of marijuanas production of trichomes and resin is. The only thing I care about is thier ability to relieve my depression, back pain, knee pain and migraines. And so, I will take my leave of this pointless arguement. Happy Growing.

Click to expand...

you really are still trying to argue that the sticky resin glands which surround the female flower are somehow unrelated to reproduction despite the almost complete absence of sticky resins on the male plant and the rest of the female plant's foliage?

or are you now arguing that any trichome which fits the description of capitate (with a head) and stalked (with a shaft) are also automatically resinous cannabinoid producing glands?

are you arguing that the well known, long understood and widely accepted assertion that unseeded calyxes grow more resin glands until they reach the end of their lifecycle is false?

are you arguing that pollination doesnt effect affect or alter the resin production around the bracts?

your arguments are quite scatteshot and poorly defined.

the non-cannabis examples of sticky resinous secretions which serve to trap pollen were EXAMPLES of the mechanism, not definitive proof of my assertions. but there has been no definitive proof for your asertions either, yet this is like the 5th time so faar you have declared intellectual checkmate, celebrated your "victory" and promised to end this argument which you declare to be "Pointless"

i am refuting your erroneous assertions because your aassertions are ERRONEOUS not because YOU are making them.

Figong said:

MH and HPS both produce UV, last I checked.

Click to expand...

check again...my uv meter does not lie

Kite High said:

check again...my uv meter does not lie

Click to expand...

Citing from a college website:

Kite High said:

Ok here you go...the second one was seeded with sts induced pollen to sell at the disp. I consult to on contract. I wanted to give them away but they are insistent upon selling so I made them pay me.
Clones from same mother in both runs
http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1102675987015-267/NM_BD16_12_28_12.pdf
http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1102675987015-295/NM_BD18_3_19_13.pdf

They argued me down about this and uvb until these tests showed truth

Sensi is not to increase potency it is to decrease loss to seeds in useable product weight

It is known as the "breeder scam" They sell the sensi and seeds and smoke the seeded bud themselves as they know it is better.

Click to expand...

so you are arguing that pollination increases cannabinoid production.

fascinating.
as well as dubious, suspect, doubtful, contrary to current understanding, illogical, and mathematically unlikely.

point 1: seeds are well accepted to have nearly no cannabinoid content.

point 2: seeds are also denser than the surrounding dried flower material

point 3: you yourself are talking of the seed's weight being a matter of importance in the seedy/sensi argument

point 4: how therefore could seedy dope assay out with so much higher concentrations of THC (with or without the seed weight included) and NOBODY else yet has clocked this fact...

even if we assume the seeds were removed before testing, a jump from 20.961% THC by weight for sensi to 23.108% for seedy is considerable.

if the seeds were NOT removed (thus increasing the weight while adding nearly no THC) the % would be MUCH higher if the seeds were extracted.

if your assertions were correct then why doesnt everybody pollinate their dope then just pick out the seeds? a jump of ~2% thc is nothing to sneeze at, but nobody else has figured it out.

Figong said:

Citing from a college website:

Click to expand...

It is illegal in the US for a bulb to emit uv if used around people...yes uv is created in the arc tube but not permitted passage or preferably blocked by the outer glass envelope...it is more costly and lotsa red tape to formulate glass which allows transmission...testing bulbs verified this for me...

Doc of course the seeds are removed...do you smoke seeds?
go pollinate your trichomes or something...already explained why everyone sensi's....wow...ok for real...I am done here...unsubbed

Kite High said:

It is illegal in the US for a bulb to emit uv if used around people...yes uv is created in the arc tube but not permitted passage or preferably blocked by the outer glass envelope...it is more costly and lotsa red tape to formulate glass which allows transmission...testing bulbs verified this for me...

Doc of course the seeds are removed...do you smoke seeds?
go pollinate your trichomes or something...wow...ok for real...I am done here...unsubbed

Click to expand...

no. i do not smoke seeds. i also do not assume that the lab picked out the seeds before the assay was performed.

they might have, or they might NOT have. the posted documents do not say, which is why i assumed the ~2% bump in THC was without the seeds, since a test which showed a ~2% bump in THC levels WITH the seeds would likely show a MUCH LARGER BUMP if the seeds were removed and the test done again.

even if the seeds only made up 2-3% of the weight of the material tested, since the seeds are largely devoid of cannabinoids the test done after the seeds were picked out would likely show an increase of 4-5% THC content with the dead weight removed.

but what do i know? i get all my info from google and just regurgitate wikipedia links right?

imma just be a "internet politician" and grow my dope without seeds whenever possible. but right now i gotta make the Interweb Senate's quorum call so i can vote on the next google doodle and approve the new wikipedia internet law school. .