Controlling humidity & why it's important

Dr. Who · Jun 10, 2017

OldMedUser said:
First thing you'll see if your N is too low is the older fan leaves yellowing. As you are starting your 5th week of flower it would not be a bad thing to be seeing that any time now as long as it doesn't rapidly spread within a few days to most of the larger fans. Pot naturally starts to pull it's nutes from the older leaves to support itself near the end. If the leaves are solid green to the end it's because they are getting fed a bit too much N or maybe lots too much. The other nutrients and minerals in tap water also contribute to this buildup. If it is lots too much the leaves often get thick and start to show chlorosis and then necrosis that doesn't look the same as regular nute burn but basically is the same. Just too much nutrient salts in the leaves and it desiccates them. They dry right up and crumble easily where with normal end-of-life yellowing the leaves don't thicken and stay soft and pliable until they start turning brown and falling off. I take them off when they are all yellow and have nothing left to offer the plant.

#1: I say only partly correct! Bloom nutrients have too low an N value and too high a P.....While more N can mask the too much P (for awhile) later the yellowing starting at the lower fans. Begins to move up the plant and out the branching.. This is limiting yields and decreasing potency.

#2: FALSE! At the point of harvest. Your plant should still be covered with green leaves (you should have limited loss of the early and lowest stem leaves). You can have natural coloring being expressed but, that's very different then high P expressions! High N levels limit can bud production as far as size. reduce potency and bring out/promote foxtailing.....

#3: Um, with all due respect (I mean that!) Not exactly how that works biologically..... "Salts" are not delivered to the plant persay. Nutrients are delivered by being changed to ions and moved around the plant in ions of that nutrient..... "Salts" build up in soils or are too high a concentration in hydro applications....There are not "salt" buildups in plants.
pH is part of the over nutrient problem - they go hand in hand and each effects the other.

I hope I did not come off as arguing/being confrontational here.

Just trying to clear somethings up a bit.

MichiganMedGrower · Jun 10, 2017

The only thing that was special about Kind is that it contains seaweed and added sulfer. The calcium is actually a bit high for limed potting mix but they say it's good for all mediums.

Which is just marketing and will cause problems potentially.

It is really a hydro nute with minor organics added. And no dedicated micro nutes.

I did a flowering side by side with 2 sets of plants.

1 set I used base and grow and the other 2 plants got base and bloom.

Virtually identical results in Pro Mix Hp.

The nutes don't matter folks as long as they are high quality many ratios and compositions will work fine.

What matters is the relationship between the nutes, your water and medium and how your plants react to them.

If you need to adjust your ph you are using the wrong nutes in potting mix unless you have extremely hard water. Only then should you need to add acid.

Even organic vs chemical based only differs in availability for uptake until you understand to plan ahead for organics.

@Dr. Who I wanted you to know these results. I never posted because the pictures were lost in an old broken phone unfortunately.

I would prefer that they had included chelated micros rather than relying on the seaweed like pure Blend Pro. And it took almost 15 ml combined to keep plants green in my garden and that's more than the organic based pure Blend Pro I am using. It should be quite less for the chemical based fertilizer.

And there are 3 bottles so it is more expensive.

I decided it was not for me. Maybe in water culture I would appreciate the adjustability more.

Lola Grows · Jun 10, 2017

Dr. Who said:
An interesting position to be sure.

Yes AN works but, is seriously over priced and watered down. I find it sad that a company can have the same ingr. at differing amounts - in different bottles and names, and charge differing prices for the products. They have changed some after being called out on that one......But for most part, they still suck ass and your paying to much for to little....

G&H has a cpl products I like (d). The Flora Nova line had it's place.
I like the CALi MAGic as it's not based on Ca Nitrate and has a lower N value. others have changed their Ca/Mg formula's to match as the market demanded. Some not and the folks that use the higher N value Ca/Mg's - use that N value in their figuring.

Botanicare has 2 of the best lines around for MM growing in my book. KIND and PRO are fantastic lines. Infinitely adjustable and KIND contains more Ca, Mg and S then others - Helps MJ growing.

Hesi has a great base line and boosting system. Like some others, they have parts that you don't need or can supply by another far cheaper choice.

Canna is another great choice. High priced and like Hesi in ways. (They have been at war with each other for years on things like formulations and lawsuits over who has the right to use what name for what product - who came up with that first....)

AN is surely not alone in the too many products and over priced thing.....H&G, Cyco, I mean all you have to do is go into a "completely stocked grow shop" and you can be lost looking at all the crap!

Many of those make the same style overblown claims thing that AN does.

In the end. Monsanto does NOT own Scotts or have any say over what Scotts does or it's formulations. Lets be real here. Scott's is BS and I don't like them. Being a farmer, I hate Monsatan much more! But it's business, plain and simple why Scott's bought these other companies. MONEY! They wanted into a section of the business they don't have nor have they gone after. MM growing. They are not changing "actual nutrient formulations" of these brands. They have changed source's of simple things like dye's used in G&H lines - I have watched several growers in our little "co-op" go to Botanicare's KIND line and dial in with rather eye opening results! It motivated me to actually begin some testing and tuning of KIND in some runs. First time I've gone back to any synthetic in Mmmm - 6 years.... The bulk of what I do is still organic.....But I must say, I'm impressed with what you can do with KIND and a bit of advanced trickery in bloom supplementing....

I will go so far as to say - I recommend at least trying the KIND line.

As for Scott's ties to Monsatan. They are working together on turf research in several area's - organic is a big area as Monsatan wants to get into that area and they supply big research dollars that benefit Scot's as they want into the same area. This is also a minor reason they bought G&H and Bot. They got their research in those area's as part of the sale.

For many years Scotts has been and is, Monsanto's exclusive agent for the marketing and distribution of consumer Roundup.

This brings up the scariest part of the relationship. Monsatan is out of the testing phase with a "roundup ready turf grass". While the far(t) left fears that the grass will mix with natural grasses all around the world. What I see as the most scary part. Is that Monsatan could start suing you for being in possession of it's "property" if you collect the seed from your lawn and use it. Your buddy across the street has their RR GMO grass and it pollinated your grass and you collected the seeds. Your now in possession of "their" patented product.

They did that all over the nation with their RR Soy beans. Your neighbor would plant their beans and they would pollinate your fields. You would collect or hold back some of those seeds to clean and plant next year. BOOM, you got sued! Fucking Monsatan would have literally, (we called them seed Nazi's or Monsatan's Gestapo) have people watching you harvest and watch your home to see if you attempted to clean seeds for reuse. Their pollen pollinated your plants from seeds that were NOT theirs. The result was now deemed "their" property as the GMO was now in your seeds.

Thank republicans for allowing the changes to laws, so that Monsatan could do that!

I might hate Monsatan, I might dislike Scott's. But I can't get over the fact that I'll choose KIND or Pro over an AN product...

Opinions are what they are..eh?

I'll research the kind nutrients out. It's so many nutrients out there claiming the same thing so it's hard to choose. AN seems so popular so I went with them, I've heard of flora and ff being decent as well. I wanted to look into powder nutrients but can't find many suggestions or results. Everything else is just complicated... I just wanna grow decent trees but I'm not trying to support bird killers while doing so.

Lola Grows · Jun 10, 2017

MichiganMedGrower said:
The only thing that was special about Kind is that it contains seaweed and added sulfer. The calcium is actually a bit high for limed potting mix but they say it's good for all mediums.

Which is just marketing and will cause problems potentially.

It is really a hydro nute with minor organics added. And no dedicated micro nutes.

I did a flowering side by side with 2 sets of plants.

1 set I used base and grow and the other 2 plants got base and bloom.

Virtually identical results in Pro Mix Hp.

The nutes don't matter folks as long as they are high quality many ratios and compositions will work fine.

What matters is the relationship between the nutes, your water and medium and how your plants react to them.

If you need to adjust your ph you are using the wrong nutes in potting mix unless you have extremely hard water. Only then should you need to add acid.

Even organic vs chemical based only differs in availability for uptake until you understand to plan ahead for organics.

@Dr. Who I wanted you to know these results. I never posted because the pictures were lost in an old broken phone unfortunately.

I would prefer that they had included chelated micros rather than relying on the seaweed like pure Blend Pro. And it took almost 15 ml combined to keep plants green in my garden and that's more than the organic based pure Blend Pro I am using. It should be quite less for the chemical based fertilizer.

And there are 3 bottles so it is more expensive.

I decided it was not for me. Maybe in water culture I would appreciate the adjustability more.

...... *sigh* the difference in opinions is soooooo confusing. Oh my !!! I just wanted to know which nutrients were simple and effective. :oops:

Lola Grows · Jun 10, 2017

Dr. Who said:
I like 40% and suggest that as a "set" point for dehuey's. I don't "like" less but, know several serious growers, including a good sized commercial op out west that does. Keep in mind they have dialed in their feeding rates for that. The commercial op is computer controlled and monitored constantly. They set at 35%....The fear of PM in a large, enclosed, high plant count facility.....Is a serious motivator..... You can loose whole crops.....

I have a friend who ran 50% for years. He has stepped back to 45 and then to 40, in an effort to stay ahead of the new pervasive PM that seems to have taken hold in our state after legalized Medical. Yes, I do blame MM growing by the increase of and the lack of skill by many. I also know of cuttings and clones from the west coming in, carrying this seemingly hardier strain of PM here.

He now runs PM free and is happier with his overall results. After his dial in..

Clone Masters & Korea town Collective has been known for clones having PM so I avoid them. I've been purchasing from Barc Collective in BH but... from now on I'm doing seeds from Big Worm Genetics!! I love purple flowers and the fruity taste most have. Plus I've learned I'll encounter less issues and a more resilient plant, when it's started from seed.

MichiganMedGrower · Jun 10, 2017

Lola Grows said:
...... *sigh* the difference in opinions is soooooo confusing. Oh my !!! I just wanted to know which nutrients were simple and effective.

I use pure Blend Pro Grow to supplement ocean forest soil with 20% added perlite. And unadjusted well water. The well water is 8.0 ph. I am telling this as it does not matter in buffered soil like Pro mix or ocean forest.

Only very hard water should need adjustment.

If I still used promix I would use it from start to finish. Simple.

Any complete 1 part base grow nute will work fine. Then you can focus on dialing in strength and frequency.

I have changed nothing for a couple of years now and my results are double the yield and way higher quality from practice.

Stable environment is the most important factor in my opinion.

I was only taking the opportunity to share my experience with the kind trio with @Dr. Who as he is an experienced grower that keeps bringing up nutes as a factor and they really don't matter except that they are complete, good quality and used properly.

Now in water culture (true hydro) the ratios matter and the type of nitrogen much more.

I will save the talk about nitrogen types and their effect on the soil for later. :-)

MichiganMedGrower · Jun 10, 2017

Lola Grows said:
Clone Masters & Korea town Collective has been known for clones having PM so I avoid them. I've been purchasing from Barc Collective in BH but... from now on I'm doing seeds from Big Worm Genetics!! I love purple flowers and the fruity taste most have. Plus I've learned I'll encounter less issues and a more resilient plant, when it's started from seed.

This is the safest and best route in my opinion. No outside cutting in my garden ever!

I have not had a pest infection for over 3 years of growing perpetual now.

Elite retail sold clones are a scam anyway. Why would someone give away their best genetics? They don't. They grow commercial clones for the masses.

OldMedUser · Jun 10, 2017

Dr. Who said:
Opinions are what they are..eh?

Exactly.

MichiganMedGrower · Jun 10, 2017

OldMedUser said:
Exactly. View attachment 3958392

Yes. But it is important to seperate opinion from fact.

OldMedUser · Jun 10, 2017

Lola Grows said:
So far I've had one leaf that died way at the bottom ( it dried up and looked crunchy so I pulled it off) I also have a bit of nutrient burn at the tips ( not much at all ) I just figured I didn't feed enough so the plant took from that leaf.. all the other ones feel soft ( this happened in week 2 of flowering) I'll keep my out for N deficiency .

When a single leaf is affected it's not because of a deficiency. Leaves can die on a plant for all sorts of reasons but if you are deficient in something or it's locked out a bunch of leaves in the same class will show it. If low on N, P, K, Mg or Zn mostly older fan leaves are affected first as these are all mobile nutes that the plant can steal to support new growth which remains unaffected until the deficiency becomes chronic.

Immobile nutes like Ca, Fe, S and all the other micro-nutrients generally affect the new growth first because if it's not available in the soil the plant can't steal it from anywhere else and the new growth has to try to grow without it.

Too high or too low a pH can prevent the plant from getting some nutrients while enhancing the availability of others. Often it's the abundance or lack of one that blocks another or more than one. You can see why figuring out what is wrong is can be difficult and just tossing in a particular "cure" can often do nothing or make things worse.

If you like to read about pot check this out.

I found a great spot to download FREE POT BOOKS. I downloaded a grow bible first and got lots more. Books look great and complete like the real ones I have here. No web site but just a page of links. Just right click on what you want and then "Save Link As" to download so they don't open first as some are 50+ megs. They got lots. Enjoy.

Dr. Who · Jun 10, 2017

MichiganMedGrower said:
I use pure Blend Pro Grow to supplement ocean forest soil with 20% added perlite. And unadjusted well water. The well water is 8.0 ph. I am telling this as it does not matter in buffered soil like Pro mix or ocean forest.

Only very hard water should need adjustment.

If I still used promix I would use it from start to finish. Simple.

Any complete 1 part base grow nute will work fine. Then you can focus on dialing in strength and frequency.

I have changed nothing for a couple of years now and my results are double the yield and way higher quality from practice.

Stable environment is the most important factor in my opinion.

I was only taking the opportunity to share my experience with the kind trio with @Dr. Who as he is an experienced grower that keeps bringing up nutes as a factor and they really don't matter except that they are complete, good quality and used properly.

Now in water culture (true hydro) the ratios matter and the type of nitrogen much more.

I will save the talk about nitrogen types and their effect on the soil for later.

I agree 100%!

I like the KIND as my friends do, for the simple fact that all we use are base and bloom. We up pot - Solo's to 1's to 3's and to 5's or 7's as need be.
We all use a solid home made BASE soil that supplies 30 days of Vegging nutrition. Point being that as you up pot, you don't need to use a veg nutrient. In the last up potting. The plant sits in it's final home for 8-10 days to set it's root spread. Then the plant is moved to the bloom room and feeding of the KIND base/bloom mix begins. I have differing mix ratio's already set for 3 differing strains.....I'm having fun with synthetics again and am enjoying it too.

I use a kelp extract weekly for 3 weeks and then skip to every other till harvest.... that's where my micro's come from. Yes, your right. It is a more hydro balanced formulation persay. I just like it and it's infinite balance choices......

I do say nutes are a factor! In relationship to how new and inexperienced growers understand them! BS claims from many makers, overly high P levels and low N levels in Bloom. That makes them a factor! The other point is the poor charting for use by many of these nutrient makers. They get lined up in the store with their colorful labels and cool magazine adds. All claiming superlative success by using their products. Sad part is, if you follow those feed charts and rates.....you tend to poison your plants and end up with sad plant results. Many think this is the way they should be. It's NOT and you know that too.

Can a given nutrient line work - Yes but, you have to know how to apply it in relation to our plants actual needs and not the charting on the bottle. So there is the whole thing and you said it in this line -

MichiganMedGrower said:
nutes as a factor and they really don't matter except that they are complete, good quality and used properly.

You and I, along with a group of others with advanced skills and knowledge. Can basically take up just about any line and make it work for our plants - properly!

There are lines I flat out don't like - period! H&G, FF - especially powders. to name a cpl right off.

But for it's simplicity and minor needs to add anything, I like, and suggest the KIND line, you notice I put the PRO right there with it..

As far as lining out the forms of N and their effects on soil, or more properly there effective actions in relation to use in soil. Might as well skip it....Im with ya and all we'll be doing is creating more panic and havoc for those who don't..

Don't worry about N forms, if you simply pour it from a bottle and use it. At this point, if it's working for you? Don't change to a new formula because someone said this compound doesn't work as effectively as that compound does.

Dr. Who · Jun 10, 2017

Lola Grows said:
I'll research the kind nutrients out. It's so many nutrients out there claiming the same thing so it's hard to choose. AN seems so popular so I went with them, I've heard of flora and ff being decent as well. I wanted to look into powder nutrients but can't find many suggestions or results. Everything else is just complicated... I just wanna grow decent trees but I'm not trying to support bird killers while doing so.

?? Bird killers??

Imid causes CCD in Bee's and does it's fair share of bee killing.
Wind turbines have become the largest "Killer" of raptors in the US..

What does Scott's have to do with killing birds? - please

OldMedUser · Jun 10, 2017

Lola Grows said:
...... *sigh* the difference in opinions is soooooo confusing. Oh my !!! I just wanted to know which nutrients were simple and effective.

Pretty much all the bottled nute lines like GH, AN etc will work the same and for all but AN you have to fiddle with the pH a lot sometimes but with AN's pH Perfect tech you don't. I've been using AN since 2001 long before they came up with pH Perfect and was reluctant to buy into the new stuff. Finally ran out of the old stuff and got some. Glad I did. I've done 4 DWC grows and about 50 plants in pots since with either straight soilless or a mix of soil/soilless and never even think about the pH. I also use RO water only so I don't have to think about what's in the water.

A lot of folks like to get into all the nitty-gritty and minor details and strive to get the very max out of everything. I want to see good results too but not have it consume me so simple is good. I only get 3 things made by AN. Base nutes, Big Bud and Rhino Skin for the silica because they make it to work well with the pH tech. Any old CalMag is good enough for me as I use very little and a dash of epsom salts doesn't hurt. How much and when to use them makes things more complicated but not hard to figure out and after a couple grows is dead easy.

I basically found my groove and am happy with it. I always have lots of the meds I like and friends that are using pot for med purposes seem to like them too. The couple times I've tried street pot that anyone has offered a taste of it's been harsh, tastes of nasty chems like bug spray and the stone is like being smacked upside the head with a brick. Yuck.

If you want to get into growing all organic then you'll have to look elsewhere for advice. I'm not good with dirt. It's all . . . dirty.

OldMedUser · Jun 10, 2017

Dr. Who said:
What does Scott's have to do with killing birds? - please

They sell chemicals that kill bugs, birds eat bugs. Birds die.

MichiganMedGrower · Jun 10, 2017

Dr. Who said:
I agree 100%!

I like the KIND as my friends do, for the simple fact that all we use are base and bloom. We up pot - Solo's to 1's to 3's and to 5's or 7's as need be.
We all use a solid home made BASE soil that supplies 30 days of Vegging nutrition. Point being that as you up pot, you don't need to use a veg nutrient. In the last up potting. The plant sits in it's final home for 8-10 days to set it's root spread. Then the plant is moved to the bloom room and feeding of the KIND base/bloom mix begins. I have differing mix ratio's already set for 3 differing strains.....I'm having fun with synthetics again and am enjoying it too.

I use a kelp extract weekly for 3 weeks and then skip to every other till harvest.... that's where my micro's come from. Yes, your right. It is a more hydro balanced formulation persay. I just like it and it's infinite balance choices......

I do say nutes are a factor! In relationship to how new and inexperienced growers understand them! BS claims from many makers, overly high P levels and low N levels in Bloom. That makes them a factor! The other point is the poor charting for use by many of these nutrient makers. They get lined up in the store with their colorful labels and cool magazine adds. All claiming superlative success by using their products. Sad part is, if you follow those feed charts and rates.....you tend to poison your plants and end up with sad plant results. Many think this is the way they should be. It's NOT and you know that too.

Can a given nutrient line work - Yes but, you have to know how to apply it in relation to our plants actual needs and not the charting on the bottle. So there is the whole thing and you said it in this line -

You and I, along with a group of others with advanced skills and knowledge. Can basically take up just about any line and make it work for our plants - properly!

There are lines I flat out don't like - period! H&G, FF - especially powders. to name a cpl right off.

But for it's simplicity and minor needs to add anything, I like, and suggest the KIND line, you notice I put the PRO right there with it..

As far as lining out the forms of N and their effects on soil, or more properly there effective actions in relation to use in soil. Might as well skip it....Im with ya and all we'll be doing is creating more panic and havoc for those who don't..

Don't worry about N forms, if you simply pour it from a bottle and use it. At this point, if it's working for you? Don't change to a new formula because someone said this compound doesn't work as effectively as that compound does.

Well I have to agree with all of this too.

Especially noting the 2 nute lines you referred to. Fox farm trio and house and garden lines both deliberately leave out certain nutes so you have to mix from different bottles or you will likely see deficiencies. And fox farms liquids tend to leave sediment in my bucket telling me there is low quality.

Interesting thing about Kind base and grow.

At 1 to 2 mix the NPK is the same ratio as dyna Grow foliage pro. The recommended foliage ratio 3-1-2. It grew fantastic plants in pro mix.

Lola Grows · Jun 10, 2017

OldMedUser said:
When a single leaf is affected it's not because of a deficiency. Leaves can die on a plant for all sorts of reasons but if you are deficient in something or it's locked out a bunch of leaves in the same class will show it. If low on N, P, K, Mg or Zn mostly older fan leaves are affected first as these are all mobile nutes that the plant can steal to support new growth which remains unaffected until the deficiency becomes chronic.

Immobile nutes like Ca, Fe, S and all the other micro-nutrients generally affect the new growth first because if it's not available in the soil the plant can't steal it from anywhere else and the new growth has to try to grow without it.

Too high or too low a pH can prevent the plant from getting some nutrients while enhancing the availability of others. Often it's the abundance or lack of one that blocks another or more than one. You can see why figuring out what is wrong is can be difficult and just tossing in a particular "cure" can often do nothing or make things worse.

If you like to read about pot check this out.

I found a great spot to download FREE POT BOOKS. I downloaded a grow bible first and got lots more. Books look great and complete like the real ones I have here. No web site but just a page of links. Just right click on what you want and then "Save Link As" to download so they don't open first as some are 50+ megs. They got lots. Enjoy.

I love reading!! Thanks

Lola Grows · Jun 10, 2017

Dr. Who said:
?? Bird killers??

Imid causes CCD in Bee's and does it's fair share of bee killing.
Wind turbines have become the largest "Killer" of raptors in the US..

What does Scott's have to do with killing birds? - please

I was about to reply but I noticed @OldMedUser already answered. Knowing your product has levels of poison that will kill birds and still selling it, is simply horrible. They've also been associated with agencies against weed growing. Not to mention they make millions yearly off of selling weed killers .. not the type of company I wanna spend my money with.

Lola Grows · Jun 10, 2017

Dr. Who said:
?? Bird killers??

Imid causes CCD in Bee's and does it's fair share of bee killing.
Wind turbines have become the largest "Killer" of raptors in the US..

What does Scott's have to do with killing birds? - please

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2012/3/24/1077430/-Scotts-Miracle-Gro-Bird-Killing-Company ( read up )

Lola Grows · Jun 10, 2017

MichiganMedGrower said:
This is the safest and best route in my opinion. No outside cutting in my garden ever!

I have not had a pest infection for over 3 years of growing perpetual now.

Elite retail sold clones are a scam anyway. Why would someone give away their best genetics? They don't. They grow commercial clones for the masses.

I'm not trying to invite bugs to the party at all!!! No more clones after this grow and I'm lucky I didn't bring any home .

MichiganMedGrower · Jun 10, 2017

Lola Grows said:
I'm not trying to invite bugs to the party at all!!! No more clones after this grow and I'm lucky I didn't bring any home .

You can quarantine them and even dip in something to rid the pests but I still feel more comfortable growing my own.

Controlling humidity & why it's important

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