UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
I SAID my wife's views would be seen as genocide
why?
how many people does she seem to think need to die?
I SAID my wife's views would be seen as genocide
And I've got a Black Friend , just think of the fun you could have with that example being used by a white man describing how blacks feel .
See the irony in your example , I do , no comparison at all .
135,000 dead civilian muslims in iraq would probably say that it's christianity.
then again there's also the KKK, and other right wing nutbags who have committed 3400+ hate crimes in the united states alone in the last decade, terrorists who shot up sikhs and abortion doctors and bomb gay night clubs, and the like.
their body count is nowhere near ours, your statement is false. demonstrably so.
the KKK cited the bible when they lynched 4700+ blacks.
extremists of every stripe try to control and mistreat women, it is not particular to islam. just ask any conservative tea party type.
they literally blame rape victims for getting raped, make women pay for their own rape kits, tuck rapes under the carpet, vote against the VAW act, deny birth control and abortions to women, tell them to keep an aspirin between their knees, blame the way they dress for rape, and so much more.
why?
how many people does she seem to think need to die?
I think those muslims would say it was americans. The US military is made up of many religions, including muslims. The attacks were not done because of, or in the name of, christianity...
Yes, this is horrible. These acts of violence were not because of religious commands to do so, whereas Islamic acts of violence are done because of religious commands to do so...
When you say 'ours', I take it you mean americans?
Yes, but as christians they are to be following the new testament, which abrogates the commands of the old testament. There are no verses that incite violence in the new testament afaik...gay bashing is found nowhere in the new testament, yet it is a huge past time of our american christians who supposedly follow the new testament.
problemo?
these other groups are not mistreating women because their religion tells them them to. Whereas when women are oppressed in the Islamic world, it is directly because their religion tells them to.
i can cite a million verses to the contrary. if you don't think subjugation of women is plastered all over the bible, we should probably abort this reasonable discussion of ours
Ask that question after you've been forced to change your religion then driven from your homeland under pain of death by a terror group .
... i see a lot of ignorant doucheholes spouting off that we should turn the region into glass, let them all kill themselves, kill all those savages, etcetera.
i wonder if they are even bright enough to realize that this is why they claim to be mad at muslims, because they labor under the delusion that all muslims want to kill all of us.
it's retarded.
their holy texts command it
their body count is nowhere near ours, your statement is false. demonstrably so.[/QUOTE]I think those muslims would say it was americans. The US military is made up of many religions, including muslims. The attacks were not done because of, or in the name of, christianity...
Yes, this is horrible. These acts of violence were not because of religious commands to do so, whereas Islamic acts of violence are done because of religious commands to do so...
My point is not which religion is historically more violent, my point is which is currently more violent.
iraq was a war of choice by a born again christian who said god talks to him and whose country is almost 80% christian.
false on all counts.
murdering abortion doctors and bombing gay night clubs is because they think god commands them to end abortion or the unnatural gayness of people. the KKK was a christian organization who cited biblical verses to persecute blacks. manifest destiny (euphemism for native american genocide) was a wholly christian concept.
and i'd say a lot of islamic violence against us is not because the koran commands them to do so, but because we swooped into their land out of choice and killed 135000+ innocent civilians directly (another 1-2.5 million indirectly by ruining their homeland). not to mention all the women our soldiers raped while we were over there.
i honestly think that our destructive role is why some want to kill us not because of some book.
does that make sense? would you agree?
i mean judeo-christian western civilizations. that's who they see coming into their country out of choice and killing innocent civilians by the hundreds of thousands.
nope. not true.
some who prey on the stupidity and desperation of the illiterate and poor will pervert the koran in that fashion
but what you state is simply not the case anymore than it is the case for jews or christians.
This is where I stopped reading because you just admitted that your argument is separate from reality since you get to ignore history including the very recent history of genocidal wars against them by the West in order to insist they're some kind of threat.
The Iraq war was not made by Bush alone, it of course had congressional approval. It was not done in the name of christianity. The resolution named these factors -
Iraq's noncompliance with the conditions of the 1991 ceasefire agreement, including interference with U.N. weapons inspectors.
Iraq "continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability" and "actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability" posed a "threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region."
Iraq's "brutal repression of its civilian population."
Iraq's "capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people".
Iraq's hostility towards the United States as demonstrated by the 1993 assassination attempt on former President George H. W. Bush and firing on coalition aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones following the 1991 Gulf War.
Members of al-Qaeda, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq.
Iraq's "continuing to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations," including anti-United States terrorist organizations.
Iraq paid bounty to families of suicide bombers.
The efforts by the Congress and the President to fight terrorists, and those who aided or harbored them.
The authorization by the Constitution and the Congress for the President to fight anti-United States terrorism.
The governments in Turkey, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia feared Saddam and wanted him removed from power.
Citing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, the resolution reiterated that it should be the policy of the United States to remove the Saddam Hussein regime and promote a democratic replacement.
I agree that these nuts thought that god wanted them to do these horrible things, but they did not get that idea from their holy text, which is the new testament. The biblical verses used by the KKK were not from the new testament, which is what christians are commanded to live by. Manifest Destiny had a christian element, but was by no means wholly christian, it was more racial and nationalistic...
I agree that a lot of hatred toward america is retaliatory. With or without those actions by the US, their holy texts command violence against us. So, those muslims that harbored no ill will for us before we unjustly attacked their land now have an excuse to follow the commands of the holy texts.
I believe they see western civilizations as monstrous polical entities, not as crusading christians...
Sorry for the long cut & paste -
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Terrorism
Economic and Social Conditions
Terrorism goes across social and economic lines
The 400 terrorists on whom I’ve collected data were the ones who actually targeted the “far enemy,” the U.S., as opposed to their own governments. I wanted to limit myself for analytical purity to that group, to see if I could identify anything different from other terrorist movements, which were far more nationalistic.
Most people think that terrorism comes from poverty, broken families, ignorance, immaturity, lack of family or occupational responsibilities, weak minds susceptible to brainwashing - the sociopath, the criminals, the religious fanatic, or, in this country, some believe they’re just plain evil.
Taking these perceived root causes in turn, three quarters of my sample came from the upper or middle class. The vast majority—90 percent—came from caring, intact families. Sixty-three percent had gone to college, as compared with the 5-6 percent that’s usual for the third world. These are the best and brightest of their societies in many ways.
Al Qaeda’s members are not the Palestinian fourteen-year- olds we see on the news, but join the jihad at the average age of 26. Three-quarters were professionals or semi- professionals. They are engineers, architects, and civil engineers, mostly scientists. Very few humanities are represented, and quite surprisingly very few had any background in religion. The natural sciences predominate. Bin Laden himself is a civil engineer, Zawahiri is a physician, Mohammed Atta was, of course, an architect; and a few members are military, such as Mohammed Ibrahim Makawi, who is supposedly the head of the military committee.
Far from having no family or job responsibilities, 73 percent were married and the vast majority had children. Those who were not married were usually too young to be married. Only 13 percent were madrassa-trained and most of them come from what I call the Southeast Asian sample, the Jemaah Islamiyya (JI). They had gone to schools headed by Sungkar and Bashir. Sungkar was the head of JI; he died in 1999. His successor, Bashir, is the cleric who is being tried for the Jakarta Marriott bombing of August 2003; he is also suspected of planning the October 2002 Bali bombing.
As a psychiatrist, originally I was looking for any characteristic common to these men. But only four of the 400 men had any hint of a disorder. This is below the worldwide base rate for thought disorders. So they are as healthy as the general population. I didn’t find many personality disorders, which makes sense in that people who are antisocial usually don’t cooperate well enough with others to join groups. This is a well-organized type of terrorism these men are not like Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, loners off planning in the woods. Loners are weeded out early on. Of the nineteen 9-11 terrorists, none had a criminal record. You could almost say that those least likely to cause harm individually are most likely to do so collectively.
At the time they joined jihad, the terrorists were not very religious. They only became religious once they joined the jihad. Seventy percent of my sample joined the jihad while they were living in another country from where they grew up.[1]
December 2004
According to a Rand Corporation report on counter-terrorism, prepared for the Office of the Secretary of Defense (US), terrorists are not particularly impoverished, uneducated, or afflicted by mental disease.
Terrorists are not particularly impoverished, uneducated, or afflicted by mental disease. Demographically, their most important characteristic is normalcy (within their environment). Terrorist leaders actually tend to come from relatively privileged backgrounds. These conclusions are firmly supported by empirical analysis[2]
2009
2011 study finds no link between poverty and support for militant groups, and suggests poorer people are actually less likely to support extremist groups than the more affluent, better educated people.
What is your source for this statement?
i'm sure that citizens of muslim nations have a similar airing of grievances against the judeo-christian westerners who invaded their homeland and left hundreds of thousands of their innocent countrymen dead.
and let's not forget the raping of their women.
denial.
the KKK was motivated by christian beliefs. i will cite them.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav1.htm
those who murder abortion doctors and bomb gay night clubs are directly influenced by their texts. they don't care if it's new testament or not.
manifest destiny was justified almost wholly in christianity too.
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/article/%e2%80%98because-the-bible-tells-me-so%e2%80%99-manifest-destiny-and-american-indians-44894
no.
only very very very fringe elements of muslims have ever acted on their texts alone, which do not say what you think they say.
it is almost wholly retaliatory, not koran based.
you'd feel the same way if someone came to your country, killed a few hundred thousand of your fellow citizens, and raped your women.
no. they directly cite our support for israel, which is driven wholly by religious beliefs. they see as as fighting a religious war. this is backed up by their stated reasons.
sounds like his tiny study, which is not repeated anywhere that i can find, sows that the types of people actually taking up arms against foreign invaders are the same as the types of americans who would take up arms if a foreign invader swooped in and killed hundreds of thousands.
in other words, the types who would fight for country rather than koran thumping.
do you disagree?
No where do I ignore history, it is simply not the point of this thread. When discussing reality, it is possible to speak of the past, and it is possible to speak exclusively of the present.
Those aren't christian beliefs, they are bibical beliefs in the old testament as the data in your post confirms. Christians are supposed to disregard the old testament since jesus came to clarify god's will (he was god himself, afterall) which is the new testament. If christians were supposed to follow the old testament, what would separate their beliefs from judaism?
I believe you are correct that these acts of violence are influenced by the old testament, but that is not christianity...
I think most muslims are shrewd enough to see it for it's other purpose (and perhaps its main purpose), which is for the US to have a military foothold in the middle east. Our support if Israel is not entirely religious
I wanted to demonstrate that it is not mainly the illiterate and poor that understand these koranic verses as commanding violence, rather it is more often the educated and affluent that come from solid family backgrounds...