Dear America: You should be mad as hell about this!

Illegal Smile said:

Since the game around here is to ask for links and proof, I'm asking.

Click to expand...

A link for proof of this? really? how about this, shall we go about describing all the ways wealth is created? One can purchase natural resources - but those have to be refined or pulled out of the ground or grown or harvested. That takes workers. One can produce products or services, but those have to be supplied or manufactured, packaged and delivered or performed. If the owner of the company does it alone - he is not an employer, he is a worker. Want to improve a property in order to resell it? workers, either you yourself if you flip property, or a large engineering firm if you wish, all of those are made up of workers as well.

Do you see where I am going with this? Rather than offer you a link, how about you offer us some instances where this description does not apply, savings? perhaps, though even savings will result in wealth if those savings are invested somewhere.
Even investment depends somewhere, somehow on workers.

abandonconflict said:

Everyone here knows the difference between asking for proof that labor creates wealth and asking for 1 stinking anecdotal report of the feds going after a state compliant grow. You say you have a PhD, I would think you wouldn't be such a failure.

Click to expand...

Now now, let us remain civil and see what he can produce.

canndo said:

A link for proof of this? really? how about this, shall we go about describing all the ways wealth is created? One can purchase natural resources - but those have to be refined or pulled out of the ground or grown or harvested. That takes workers. One can produce products or services, but those have to be supplied or manufactured, packaged and delivered or performed. If the owner of the company does it alone - he is not an employer, he is a worker. Want to improve a property in order to resell it? workers, either you yourself if you flip property, or a large engineering firm if you wish, all of those are made up of workers as well.

Do you see where I am going with this? Rather than offer you a link, how about you offer us some instances where this description does not apply, savings? perhaps, though even savings will result in wealth if those savings are invested somewhere.
Even investment depends somewhere, somehow on workers.

Click to expand...

There is a difference between stating an opinion and making an assertion of fact. You made an assertion of fact, and now you can't back it up. Don't do that.

Now wait, I can make an argument - suppose I use my wealth creating capacity and purchase oh, say Gold, which was discovered and brought out of the ground, smelted and coined by other workers. I put that away for 40 years and low and behold I have created more wealth just by waiting. I suppose this might be an exception, as would the apreciation of any item - so, I was wrong, certain things, even though they are produced by workers can appreciate and thus create more wealth simpy by their continued existence.

Illegal Smile said:

There is a difference between stating an opinion and making an assertion of fact. You made an assertion of fact, and now you can't back it up. Don't do that.

Click to expand...

Fact or opinion, you have ample opportunity to disprove it. I gave an example, not a very good one as little of the nation's wealth is tied up in appreciation of collectables or even gold.

canndo said:

Now wait, I can make an argument - suppose I use my wealth creating capacity and purchase oh, say Gold, which was discovered and brought out of the ground, smelted and coined by other workers. I put that away for 40 years and low and behold I have created more wealth just by waiting. I suppose this might be an exception, as would the apreciation of any item - so, I was wrong, certain things, even though they are produced by workers can appreciate and thus create more wealth simpy by their continued existence.

Click to expand...

Appreciation owes itself to demand.

we can look at this in another way as well with the question "what do the rich produce by their own hand alone".

It's common sense man.

canndo said:

Now wait, I can make an argument - suppose I use my wealth creating capacity and purchase oh, say Gold, which was discovered and brought out of the ground, smelted and coined by other workers. I put that away for 40 years and low and behold I have created more wealth just by waiting. I suppose this might be an exception, as would the apreciation of any item - so, I was wrong, certain things, even though they are produced by workers can appreciate and thus create more wealth simpy by their continued existence.

Click to expand...

OK good. Now also consider that a worker is not the only part of the wealth creation recipe. Maybe there is land, buildings, machinery etc etc etc. Exactly how those things are combined is called a production function. This is why companies hire analysts to calculate scenarios for adding more labor at certain times, and cutting back at others. If workers were the only thing that created wealth, we would obviously have full employment.

ps it isn't fair to continue this and I won't. That PhD is in economics, Ohio State, 1982.

abandonconflict said:

Appreciation owes itself to demand.

Click to expand...

It does, but it can be argued that this sort of appreciation could be a demand only of the rich.

abandonconflict said:

Appreciation owes itself to demand.

Click to expand...

exactly! And illegal, what creates that demand? A market does right?

What's better an economy where the market is made up of 20% of the population or one that involves 70%?

Padawanbater2 said:

Did you read the information in the link at all? Every measurable statistic says the growth of income over the past 30 years has gone to the wealthiest Americans. I really don't care if it's considered fair because they were smart enough to do it, it will eventually lead to the entire collapse of the economy, and at that point, there's only one other option left.

Click to expand...

Right, we should be more like the Greeks or the Beluruskis, or even the Bolsheviks. (I just wish these whiners would check Adam Smith as well as Karl Marx.)

ink the world said:

exactly! And illegal, what creates that demand? A market does right?

What's better an economy where the market is made up of 20% of the population or one that involves 70%?

Click to expand...

No, a market is the barter and channel of scarce resources. It does not of itself itself demand. Say's law is - Supply creates demand.

canndo said:

Now wait, I can make an argument - suppose I use my wealth creating capacity and purchase oh, say Gold, which was discovered and brought out of the ground, smelted and coined by other workers. I put that away for 40 years and low and behold I have created more wealth just by waiting. I suppose this might be an exception, as would the apreciation of any item - so, I was wrong, certain things, even though they are produced by workers can appreciate and thus create more wealth simpy by their continued existence.

Click to expand...

Assuming the price goes up and not down as it has a wont to do.

Illegal Smile said:

OK good. Now also consider that a worker is not the only part of the wealth creation recipe. Maybe there is land, buildings, machinery etc etc etc. Exactly how those things are combined is called a production function. This is why companies hire analysts to calculate scenarios for adding more labor at certain times, and cutting back at others. If workers were the only thing that created wealth, we would obviously have full employment.

ps it isn't fair to continue this and I won't. That PhD is in economics, Ohio State, 1982.

Click to expand...

No, and congradulations on your degree. We are talking about a single thing, appreciation, land on it's own will appreciate but not much, undevelped land will remain undeveloped unless it is....developed. Buildings, machinery, every other thing has as it's primary component, workers, designers, manufacturers, custodians, polishers, painters, installers and all the rest. You are missing the point, NOTHING would exist were it not for workers, I could produce totems and sell them on a street corner and create wealth, I needn't have any investment save my own time and a knife that I purchased from another worker. You are looking at labor, I am not, labor is a portion of your production function but I am looking at the worker. No worker, NO labor.

Again I will ask, what else creates wealth? don't mind the fairness, either I hold my own with your doctorate or I do not, if I do not then I will have no problem agreeing with you and saying I am wrong. I won't insult you or dodge or go away angry. So, what else creates wealth?

haight said:

Assuming the price goes up and not down as it has a wont to do.

Click to expand...

yes, assuming it goes up.

It would sound like a joke if I said that the right wing has a different (incorrect) way of looking at biology to confirm (falsely) their world view that we should all be in competition with one another for survival. Somehow it has become accepted that survival of the fittest is a law of nature, and that it is a pure and good thing to inflict poverty upon others, as if greed wasn't motive enough. What ever helps you sleep at night I guess...

Conservatism is a disorder. Why poor people would defend such lunacy is beyond me. You have actually been convinced that people who read such material as "The Virtue of Selfishness" by Ayn Rand should have something to offer in the form of leadership. What about compassion?

Illegal Smile said:

OK good. Now also consider that a worker is not the only part of the wealth creation recipe. Maybe there is land, buildings, machinery etc etc etc. Exactly how those things are combined is called a production function. This is why companies hire analysts to calculate scenarios for adding more labor at certain times, and cutting back at others. If workers were the only thing that created wealth, we would obviously have full employment.

ps it isn't fair to continue this and I won't. That PhD is in economics, Ohio State, 1982.

Click to expand...

The jobs are not in this country, they are over seas...because greedy people would rather max profit and use slave labor in other countries than to manufacture something here, you should know that simple economics could tell you , the money we are wasting in the Mid East could have paid China what we owe them...Then we should have implemented a massive tariff on any of the cheap shit being imported from there...Then we grow more industrial hemp and stop clearing so many forests and exporting our lumber to China. That creates jobs and keeps more of our natural resources. If we cut the defense budget in half that alone is enough money to provide universal healthcare to every citizen and leaving enough money to clean every natural water way up to provide cleaner water. This country has a massive amount of natural gas that can be extracted cleanly and sold and used...Every vehicle in this country should be running on nat gas and we could freeze the people who hate us the most completely, while not having foreign companies like BP or Big Polluters destroying out gulf and sea life..This is all common sense that is being held back because the greediest people in the country seem to have the most money and influence, they are putting money and greed ahead of their own countries well being.

I've heard the same argument stated almost exactly the opposite you wrote abandon. Why would the poor be in such lockstep with the democratic party. If you looked at the most screwed up, poorly educated, highest drop out rate, highest teen pregnancy rates, dirtiest, poorest cities they all have one thing in common. Democratic leadership for the last 3 or 4 decades. The once great cities like Philly, Detroit, DC, Baltimore, Cleveland have become blights.

I think the difference is, yours is a stated opinion backed by no facts while the other is awesomely obvious to anyone looking.

the south is a gop stronghold ..they have the most poor dumb ass residents in the country...I dunno how the gop convinces poor white people to vote republican...maybe such important issues like gays marrying or race equality scare them.