Def / Excess / Lock-Out - What’s ur take??

lakesidegrower said:

I had dealt with spider mites last run, I decided on an isopropyl alcohol foliar at the time - it knocked them down and I was able to get them down to very few pops alternating between the iso, neem and insecticidal soap. Bombed the room with dr.doom after and no signs since, thank god.
I thought the citric acid foliar worked amazingly actually, one thorough application and not a sign of any pests on the plants.

Click to expand...

PadawanWarrior said:

I've done 50/50 ISO to water for mites and shit too and it's pretty effective.

Predators are my favorite though.

Click to expand...

lakesidegrower said:

I would love em - been trying to find out if koeppert does smaller pack sizes… the ones on their website are just too dang big for my needs. I’m also stuck with 6 months of frozen winter so can’t get em when I need them most of the time. I would have killlllled for some predatory mites last winter

Click to expand...

lakesidegrower said:

I did have a rash of fungus gnats early in veg - I put out sticky traps which filled up nicely lol I let the top soil dry for a few days, continued dry cycles between watering and more traps - I haven’t seen a gnat in the room in weeks. Is it possible I still have an infestation in the soil? My presumption would be I’d have to see at least some flying gnats given life cycles and such….
The strange thing about the brown spots is that when they first appeared, it almost seemed as though the white spot damage from thrips or a mite had turned into the brown spots after the citric acid foliar…via burn perhaps, it seems kind of silly but I don’t see the white spots anymore. Here’s a pic of the white spots prior to foliar, hopefully you can make them out - they don’t look exactly like spider mite dmg and they don’t look exactly like thrips, but I’ve never dealt with thrips
View attachment 5017419
the thing is I never did get a positive ID in the thrips, hence needing the better scope - I saw what looked like round translucent mite eggs but they were smaller, I also saw slight signs of thrips trials and black excrement spotting under the leaves, but I never found a thrip on my sticky traps or under the leaves, drove me nuts. So I decided onthe citric acid foliar, undersides of leaves are now totally clean. I should also note that the brown spots are localized and haven’t shown on any new leaves.

New to CO2 and 2nd run on the lights. Have dealt with mag def but am familiar with that showing on the lowers first and then progressing upwards. My well water pH is 6.7 and about 200ppm, mostly calcium I presume (limestone aquefer), I’ve been watering with this the entire run. I’m hoping a bluelab soil probe can give me a bit of insight here. I did a soil slurry today and my cheap probe measured 6.55 with a cheap probe meter, but know that I can’t really trust that with too much confidence.

the other solid reason I’m leaning towards something about/in the soil or inputs being the culprit is that even the smallest nodes in the lower parts of the canopy are displaying the same leaf patterning. I have been considering a flush but would prefer to be a bit more confident I’ve IDd the issue correctly

Click to expand...

PadawanWarrior said:

I've never ordered predators separately. All mine can from EWC or compost. My first hypoaspis miles actually came from the cheap Wiggle Worm stuff. It had lots of nematodes in it too. I've been buying BAS shit lately.

Click to expand...

Nutty sKunK said:

It’s newer growth so immobile.

My money is on low or antagonised Zn.

This chart is really handy

View attachment 5017478

Click to expand...

lakesidegrower said:

I am familiar with that diagram, the name escapes me now…but thanks for posting, I can’t say I’ve referenced that in trying to diagnose this. So I’m interpreting here that high levels of Ca and P can interfere with Zn availability, this would fit my scenario as I clearly have higher Ca levels in my water and through all of this I’d be surprised if P levels were too low, if anything a safer presumption would be that it is too high.

Click to expand...

kratos015 said:

Oh, okay, my mistake. Thought you'd run the equipment longer than that. If you're absolutely positive you have no bugs, and have pH tests to confirm there are no lockouts, it is likely the Mg/K deficiency.

The DE/LED lights end up using more light because of spectrum, so more photosynthesis than you'd see in other lights and thus more Mg/K use. This becomes intensified when CO2 is added into the equation. When the CO2 is increased, everything else needs to be increased to compensate and balance the equation.

Can't comment on how others deal with it, I've been using minor amounts of Langbeinite as needed. Summer sun out here gets pretty intense, and the plants that survive outdoors here seem to react to the Langbeinite overnight in some cases. Might be something worth looking into, it's available immediately upon being watered in. Just be cautious, powerful stuff.

If I ruled out bugs and pH, I'd be looking at upping the nutrients. Especially having added CO2 to the equation. So, just a deficiency. Wise of you to rule out the other options before taking drastic measures.

Photosynthesis equation is pretty much [CO2 + water + light + nutrients = sugars and oxygen], right? Extra CO2 combined with quality indoor LED lights will require extra water and nutrients. Hoping it is just a simple deficiency and not bugs.

Regards.

Click to expand...

Nutty sKunK said:

No probs. It’s called the mulders chart for future reference.

High Ca levels certainly won’t help if Zn levels are low to begin with.

I cheat and use sulphates now to address micro deficiencies. 0.5g per gallon of Zn sulphate would be my personal go to unless someone can refer a more organic form of Zn

Click to expand...

lakesidegrower said:

Right on, I really like how you consider/approach something like this, and your support for this explanation makes perfect sense to me. I know that whatever the explanation, adding CO2 presses far forward on the whole mechanism (explained well by your photosynthesis equation example) and that’s when I started seeing this issue, almost overnight. So it doesn’t provide an easy answer but I’m confident the issue was triggered or accelerated by didn’t CO2 and adjusting the enviro to suit

I was taking a closer look at potential def/unavailability of micronutrients last night and I had decided I need to get my hands on some langbeinite, at least to have it in my arsenal if nothing else.

so here I am - needing to decide whether to flush tonight or supp with K… lol. Is it a ridiculous idea to consider doing both? (Ie flush tonight and feed the next day or two). My soil has quite good drainage, I also stratified with ‘horizons’ in the pots, starting with about 2” rocks on the bottom.

Click to expand...

kratos015 said:

Flushing won't help much, you likely have no issues with excess, only deficiency. Flushing will make things worse, IMO.

Just let it ride until the langbeinite arrives. Shutting off the CO2 and dimming the lights down all the way will help in the meantime, help minimize the stress.

Don't stress too much on it. This is just one grow of many. Eventually, the need to troubleshoot issues like this ceases to exist because everything will become "perfect" on its own with proper time and care. Just takes a bit of troubleshooting in the meantime, and the process is different for everyone as we all deal with different variables.

Click to expand...

PadawanWarrior said:

I've become a fan of langbeinite too. But am still a beginner using it separately.

Click to expand...

kratos015 said:

The high K intimidated me for years. I picked some up this year because my outdoor plants had that Mg def like OP's plants. Foliar feed wasn't practical, too time consuming, so I took a chance on langbeinite. Worked like a charm and saw improvement in days.

Click to expand...

PadawanWarrior said:

Same here man. That's why I started super low, but I've been slowly increasing the amounts I use to experiment. My plants love it. But I was experimenting with mixing it in water for a faster acting K and Mg source, and I gave it to a small plant in a 1/2 gal 3 days in a row. The plant was good after day one, but it was obvious after another couple days of giving it that that it was getting worse.

My thought was too much K, that was locking out other stuff like Mg. I used plain water and then transplanted it into it's final home and it's getting better.

I still love the stuff, but will be more careful next time I mix it with water and dissolve it in my magnetic stirrer.

Click to expand...

kratos015 said:

It is quite a bit of K, but it has good amounts of Mg to compensate. I've yet to experience issues, and no negative effects from the 0-0-22 NPK. However, I've used it quite cautiously, and rarely the full dose. Happy to hear you and others seem to be experiencing positive things with it too. The NPK does look crazy, but its really not as bad as it looks, and in some grows/environments is completely justified.

Might I recommend watering it in, as opposed to dissolving it in the water?

This way, instead of the entire dose being dissolved immediately in the water, it is instead dissolved gradually into the soil over a handful of waterings.

Click to expand...

kratos015 said:

Flushing won't help much, you likely have no issues with excess, only deficiency. Flushing will make things worse, IMO.

Just let it ride until the langbeinite arrives. Shutting off the CO2 and dimming the lights down all the way will help in the meantime, help minimize the stress.

Don't stress too much on it. This is just one grow of many. Eventually, the need to troubleshoot issues like this ceases to exist because everything will become "perfect" on its own with proper time and care. Just takes a bit of troubleshooting in the meantime, and the process is different for everyone as we all deal with different variables.

Click to expand...