Does freewill exist?

Does freewill exist?

  • Total voters
    81
JamieThePainter

JamieThePainter

Well-Known Member
Dreaming1 said:
Please, put it out there.
I say free will is more than choosing between available choices. I say that is reacting.
Free will is being in control of which choices are available.
No one has that for themselves. Outside forces can always derail plans. And some options are not available at the time of choosing. We are bound by life and death. No choice to be here, and no choice to stay beyond our natural time.

I would like to have other words to say, but I have looked over my script, and all I have to say is I feel this way or that way. I just hope I am delivering my lines at the right moments.
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Free will is the ability to choose the direction of your life, regardless of laws or work obligations.

free will

noun
noun: free will; noun: freewill
  1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
If an outside force is derailing your plans, then it is acting against your freewill. When we talk of freewill in the philosophical sense, we're asking "is it us who choose what we do, or is it fate? Are our lives pre-determined?"
 
Dreaming1

Dreaming1

Well-Known Member
JamieThePainter said:
Free will is the ability to choose the direction of your life, regardless of laws or work obligations.

free will

noun
noun: free will; noun: freewill
  1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
If an outside force is derailing your plans, then it is acting against your freewill. When we talk of freewill in the philosophical sense, we're asking "is it us who choose what we do, or is it fate? Are our lives pre-determined?"
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We could never know until after our deaths, and then only if there is an afterlife, and we are important enough to be involved in knowing about it. It all comes down to whether or not you believe you do or don't. There can be no answer reached with language. Like is there a god.
And yet we have autonomously controlled bodies. I don't choose my brain function. I don't decide to breathe. I can try, but my body acts against my free will and breathes for me. So my free will is not very good at defending itself. And in this world, that means free will is getting abused. Also, it seems to imply animals have free will, which I am intrigued by. They appear unconstrained by ideas of laws or work obligations. I can get down with we are animals and all animals possess free will. It doesn't seem to matter.
So your definition has convinced me. I do have free will. I also have free smell,sight,hearing,taste(arguable), and possess free feeling (which I encourage!)
 
Dreaming1

Dreaming1

Well-Known Member
JamieThePainter said:
Free will is the ability to choose the direction of your life, regardless of laws or work obligations.

free will

noun
noun: free will; noun: freewill
  1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
If an outside force is derailing your plans, then it is acting against your freewill. When we talk of freewill in the philosophical sense, we're asking "is it us who choose what we do, or is it fate? Are our lives pre-determined?"
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Hold up...I may have missed the point again.
We still seem to be fated to live and fated to die. Necessity of fate to have life. And then, the inability to avoid the fate of death or act at our own discretion which is usually to stay alive.
I didn't seem to choose to be, and my self doesn't want to choose to not be. I do have more say in the latter because of advancements in science.
So maybe the only free will we have that matters is choosing to want to live in spite of bad things that happen. It is easy to enjoy the good stuff in life.
 
Nixs

Nixs

Well-Known Member
JamieThePainter said:
Eh? Why wouldn't my freewill allow me to save someone from dying? I'm really not seeing your point here.
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You might be able to save him\her sometimes, but not all the time, say you're watching someone who just died, can you bring him back alive? You want to but can not, your will is very limited.
Suppose you're sitting in a restaurant having a meal, if someone takes your food without your permission you might be able to take it back, but what if a house fly lands on your food and takes some of it, can you take it back? A fly is much weaker than a man, but you "will" never be able to take your food back from it :D
 
JamieThePainter

JamieThePainter

Well-Known Member
Nixs said:
You might be able to save him\her sometimes, but not all the time, say you're watching someone who just died, can you bring him back alive? You want to but can not, your will is very limited.
Suppose you're sitting in a restaurant having a meal, if someone takes your food without your permission you might be able to take it back, but what if a house fly lands on your food and takes some of it, can you take it back? A fly is much weaker than a man, but you "will" never be able to take your food back from it :D
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I think you're mistaking the concept of freewill for super powers, bud :lol:

The idea of free will explores the act of decisions we make in our life. If we have free will, then that means we have the agency behind the decisions we make. If we don't have free will, then it means everything is directed by fate. You were designed to make that decision and you couldn't have made any other decision, because fate had already determined that you would. If Fate is real and Freewill is not, then this means the past, the present and future (Time, if you will) is all predetermined to run in an exact way.

Fate takes away the self agency from our decisions.
 
JamieThePainter

JamieThePainter

Well-Known Member
Nixs said:
Suppose you're sitting in a restaurant having a meal, if someone takes your food without your permission you might be able to take it back, but what if a house fly lands on your food and takes some of it, can you take it back? A fly is much weaker than a man, but you "will" never be able to take your food back from it :D
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You're asking the wrong questions though. The question you should be asking is "did the person who took your food do so because ultimately he made the decision to do so, or did he do so because the cogs of the Universe/God/Fate made him do it?" If you lack the ability to stop either him or the fly well... that has nothing to do with free will. Whatever you decide your response will be is the subject of concern here. Did you choose to react that way, or are you reacting that way because of Fate?
 
StonedGardener

StonedGardener

Well-Known Member
Dreaming1 said:
Yeah, my americaness showed there. The shared costs make more sense than what we do, profit for insurance companies. But, dying is still dying whether you do it alone or in a hospital bed surrounded by attendees. No one gets out of here alive.
I still disagree with the free will part. I think the "obligation" could be an internal drive aside from choosing between choices. An internal drive that is not of personal volition. A program running.
I want to have free choice. I dont believe that we do. Not that I am not free to make choices, but that the choices are only between things and not what things I decide to have as choices. It's why I think we choose the choices we do. Not because of free will, but because of probability at least, and determinism at most.
It's one of those things that we can talk about, but can't measure. And without an absolute answer, we are trapped in a loop. Those that want to believe do and those that want to not believe dont. One of these has to be right. But no one will know unless there is some kind of reveal ending.
The whole of my "argument" is we can choose A,B,or C. Free will is being able to choose from any letter, numbers, shapes, animals, automotive parts, or colors. Not limited to simple choices, but free to set up whatever you will.
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Oh ! that's what free will is. Nah, that shit ain't going down ! That's a ridiculous notion , I've wasted so many 0's and 1's
Dreaming1 said:
Please, put it out there.
I say free will is more than choosing between available choices. I say that is reacting.
Free will is being in control of which choices are available.
No one has that for themselves. Outside forces can always derail plans. And some options are not available at the time of choosing. We are bound by life and death. No choice to be here, and no choice to stay beyond our natural time.

I would like to have other words to say, but I have looked over my script, and all I have to say is I feel this way or that way. I just hope I am delivering my lines at the right moments.
Click to expand...
" There's the Rub "........" I SAY free will is...".... your interpretation . I've noticed that you talk a lot about death , no choice in being here ( like you resent it) , trapped in a , loop , bound by life. You're preaching gloom and doom . You need to meet my friends , you'll forget all about that other shit.
 
Dreaming1

Dreaming1

Well-Known Member
StonedGardener said:
Oh ! that's what free will is. Nah, that shit ain't going down ! That's a ridiculous notion , I've wasted so many 0's and 1's


" There's the Rub "........" I SAY free will is...".... your interpretation . I've noticed that you talk a lot about death , no choice in being here ( like you resent it) , trapped in a , loop , bound by life. You're preaching gloom and doom . You need to meet my friends , you'll forget all about that other shit.
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Personal observation is all we have. The definition is the original interpretation. We just agree or disagree. Now, did we choose out viewpoint or are we a program? Why would you write in a subroutine that allows a program to query whether it is controlled or in control? Sadism.
It is all a waste of 0's and 1's. What else can we do floating around on a rock waiting to die?
Yes. We have no choice to have been born. It happened to us. We can choose to leave life. Easier now in the future. And we have no choice but to die until we upload consciousness to a non organic form.
Doom and gloom. It all depends on what you see and experience. I have seen a lot of life from a lot of different angles. Several friends. Some tragic. And when it is happening to them as well, it affects everyone in their sphere. Friends are temporary. You can sit and watch them die with zero choice on either side. It sucks. Free will rings so hollow in those moments.
This is one of the waste of time questions. We can obviously never know unless we get the answer revealed. And we are probably not important enough to be let in.
Hope you all have a good one. These are words. Don't get your undies bunched up. Ideas are upsetting sometimes. It really doesn't matter. You are just here to carry on until you die. Mostly pointless it appears. Good luck everyone.
 
JamieThePainter

JamieThePainter

Well-Known Member
Dreaming1 said:
This is one of the waste of time questions. We can obviously never know unless we get the answer revealed. And we are probably not important enough to be let in.
yone.
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Philosophy is the foundation of modern science. It is the characterisation of wasking "why?" That I would need to explain the importance of philosophy in this day and age if both shocking but expected by this generation of know it alls.

It's only pointless if you have no understanding of the question. Not a dig so much as it is a suggestion.

Open your mind, guys. The world is more than you think but it is so very small if you don't.
 
Dreaming1

Dreaming1

Well-Known Member
Cogito, ergo sum. Even Descartes has to assume something to start his argument. He can not prove he even exists. He just has to go with it that he feels he does. This is the same. (A loop?:D) We have to assume we have free will or we dont. Without an accurate measurement of the facts, we can't know.
Idk if the kids these days are any worse than the kids of a certain age these days. It is always the same. Probably s bell curve or something related to e.
 
StonedGardener

StonedGardener

Well-Known Member
Dreaming1 said:
Personal observation is all we have. The definition is the original interpretation. We just agree or disagree. Now, did we choose out viewpoint or are we a program? Why would you write in a subroutine that allows a program to query whether it is controlled or in control? Sadism.
It is all a waste of 0's and 1's. What else can we do floating around on a rock waiting to die?
Yes. We have no choice to have been born. It happened to us. We can choose to leave life. Easier now in the future. And we have no choice but to die until we upload consciousness to a non organic form.
Doom and gloom. It all depends on what you see and experience. I have seen a lot of life from a lot of different angles. Several friends. Some tragic. And when it is happening to them as well, it affects everyone in their sphere. Friends are temporary. You can sit and watch them die with zero choice on either side. It sucks. Free will rings so hollow in those moments.
This is one of the waste of time questions. We can obviously never know unless we get the answer revealed. And we are probably not important enough to be let in.
Hope you all have a good one. These are words. Don't get your undies bunched up. Ideas are upsetting sometimes. It really doesn't matter. You are just here to carry on until you die. Mostly pointless it appears. Good luck everyone.
Click to expand...
 
StonedGardener

StonedGardener

Well-Known Member
Dreaming1 said:
Personal observation is all we have. The definition is the original interpretation. We just agree or disagree. Now, did we choose out viewpoint or are we a program? Why would you write in a subroutine that allows a program to query whether it is controlled or in control? Sadism.
It is all a waste of 0's and 1's. What else can we do floating around on a rock waiting to die?
Yes. We have no choice to have been born. It happened to us. We can choose to leave life. Easier now in the future. And we have no choice but to die until we upload consciousness to a non organic form.
Doom and gloom. It all depends on what you see and experience. I have seen a lot of life from a lot of different angles. Several friends. Some tragic. And when it is happening to them as well, it affects everyone in their sphere. Friends are temporary. You can sit and watch them die with zero choice on either side. It sucks. Free will rings so hollow in those moments.
This is one of the waste of time questions. We can obviously never know unless we get the answer revealed. And we are probably not important enough to be let in.
Hope you all have a good one. These are words. Don't get your undies bunched up. Ideas are upsetting sometimes. It really doesn't matter. You are just here to carry on until you die. Mostly pointless it appears. Good luck everyone.
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⁸

Oh , my panties aren't bunched up , sorry if I sent the wrong signal.........thought we we're just having a lively , fun debate. Apologies. We won't kick this around anymore.
 
Dreaming1

Dreaming1

Well-Known Member
StonedGardener said:
⁸

Oh , my panties aren't bunched up , sorry if I sent the wrong signal.........thought we we're just having a lively , fun debate. Apologies. We won't kick this around anymore.
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Sorry brother, I wasn't intending that to be directed at you. I should have added more words to make that read like it was to the broader public. That's why I started the new paragraph and said you all. But I had quoted your earlier statement and the flow of it does kind of muddle my intention.
As far as I can see, this has become a livelier debate than it has been for a long while. I hope someone finds this in the future and our names are credited with starting mind fires.
Idk that we have to kick it around anymore. Seems like those involved either agree that we are making our choices, or that we are either pawns of a god or godlike entity or are that godlike entity pretending to be us. As far as which is correct is yet to be discerned.
I know nothing. I have never found anyone that knows anything. It seems beyond our reach. We do seem to be a bit of dust in the wind.
 
hillbill

hillbill

Well-Known Member
Even wild birds and other animals make decisions constantly, Crows come through the trees leap-frogging and watching as the group advances. Military units move just like em.

However, Free Will can be relinquished by humans to a cult, religious or psychological or even a political cult of personality.
 
Dreaming1

Dreaming1

Well-Known Member
hillbill said:
Even wild birds and other animals make decisions constantly, Crows come through the trees leap-frogging and watching as the group advances. Military units move just like em.

However, Free Will can be relinquished by humans to a cult, religious or psychological or even a political cult of personality.
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Do you think the animals are on automatic without free will? Or more of all things are on more or less equal footing?
I am unsure as to whether "I" am really making my own path or if it is just on automatic and "I" am just experiencing the ride. I see it as making choices, but unsure if the choice between x and y is anything? And if it is easy enough to act against my free will and shut it down by domination, is it anything to brag about?
If I am free to choose or not choose, I would say is more "free will" than reacting to my situation and choosing between presented options. But, In this thread, we have gone with free will is anti-predeterminism. But, without any way to prove it. So, now we debate if it is worth arguing over. How funny would it be to find out we do not have free will, and see how much time and energy we put into the fantasy of having it.
My favorite part is what I said earlier, if we are deterministic in thoughts and actions, why would
the maker/programmer include us being able to ask whether we were free or not? Really weird skullfuck stuff.
 
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