Effects of Sequestration

ginwilly said:

In the Baltics? as compared to the rest of the Eurozone?

You must have read a Krugman blog or something.

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......in the baltics........dude what do you think they cut? Their long russian toe nails? lol

The baltic countries took the route of austerity instead of tax, borrow and spend like others in the eurozone and came out the other end in much better shape in a short period of time. While only a million in population may be a small sample size but it compares to Detroit. Detroit method vs Baltic method. Which one worked?

It could be a good case study of economic measures and outcomes but it disproves the Keynesian theories so it's ignored, belittled, criticized and had stories fabricated to explain away the success. It's sad really. I mean here's a model that is being shown to have way more success than the other model but we must find a way to destroy it instead.

ginwilly said:

The baltic countries took the route of austerity instead of tax, borrow and spend like others in the eurozone and came out the other end in much better shape in a short period of time. While only a million in population may be a small sample size but it compares to Detroit. Detroit method vs Baltic method. Which one worked?

It could be a good case study of economic measures and outcomes but it disproves the Keynesian theories so it's ignored, belittled, criticized and had stories fabricated to explain away the success. It's sad really. I mean here's a model that is being shown to have way more success than the other model but we must find a way to destroy it instead.

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different countries, different cultures, different everything......... therefor different outcomes. I'm really no that willing to try it. I'm not arguing with you saying it doesn't work over there. But Estonians aren't Americans, (Estonia isn't America.) I believe that that little equation is kinda crucial.

tomahawk2406 said:

different countries, different cultures, different everything......... therefor different outcomes. I'm really no that willing to try it. I'm not arguing with you saying it doesn't work over there. But Estonians aren't Americans, (Estonia isn't America.) I believe that that little equation is kinda crucial.

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Yes, very different culture, different leadership, same symptoms. They rode huge growth from the creation of the housing bubble like the rest of the world, and they also crashed with the rest of us. Their populace was wise enough to accept austerity without rioting. They elected officials who had the fortitude to enact and carry out. They have a leader who mocks Krugman instead of listens to him even though he's a Socialist Democrat party member.

We could learn from what works or not. As long as the loudest would rather not learn the political panderers will perform as expected.

ginwilly said:

Yes, very different culture, different leadership, same symptoms. They rode huge growth from the creation of the housing bubble like the rest of the world, and they also crashed with the rest of us. Their populace was wise enough to accept austerity without rioting. They elected officials who had the fortitude to enact and carry out. They have a leader who mocks Krugman instead of listens to him even though he's a Socialist Democrat party member.

We could learn from what works or not. As long as the loudest would rather not learn the political panderers will perform as expected.

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Detail what they cut

ChesusRice said:

Detail what they cut

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waste, fraud and abuse

ginwilly said:

waste, fraud and abuse

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No they didnt

They are hailed as the new poster children for austerity. In Estonia, civil servants took a 10% pay cut and ministers saw 20% shaved from their salaries. The government raised the pension age, cut job protection and made it harder to claim health benefits. Latvia's government sacked 30% of public sector staff and slashed salaries by 40%. Both introduced new taxes and raised existing ones.

And you will find that in every single example of "austerity" you wish to proclaim

Unemployment went to 30% and is hovering around 15% now

And now they are growing at a rate of 8%. We grew at .1% last quarter. You won't be able to get past that. Seems you pointed pointed out some of the waste and abuse. They went to a flat tax eliminating some fraud and abuse.

• That's partially because you jump off on tangents not bothering to read what I wrote and partially because you live in backwoods dumbfuckville. If you have less than 20k in the bank, you probably aren't going to qualify for $400k mortgage mkay? Those days are gone. Lending is not back to prereccesion levels, but it's way up over 09 levels...no two ways about it. Not sure why this is a sticking point...go to the Fed's website or look it up if you don't believe me.
  
  
  
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I have stayed directly on topic until now. It is you who keeps diverting attention from the areas that you do not wish to discuss.
There you go again making assumptions as to which you obviously know very little about. Most middle class americans are not going to buy a 400k house, Period. Most of those that do will end up losing it due to the fact that they overextended themselves. The proof is in the pudding here. The foreclosure crisis our country has been in. and yes I live in a rural area but I didn't go to dumbfuckville until I clicked on your thread here. *why do you keep coming back then?* he asks, So I know what the dumbfuck looks like I respond.

As far as being a liberal savant. Wtf ever I do not now or ever consider myself to be an expert in such matters. I only know what I have witnessed work or not.

You made it an attack on the working man by downplaying the worth of the skilled trades. By calling them shovel ready jobs. mmmkay? I bet your job is real important tho, like an accountant or insurance executive. woooohookiss-asslol

• What a mouthfull. Pure emotional drivel..off topic. You want to find the Pelosi widespread quote, I'll post it for you. Typical liberal savant making everything an assault on the "working man". For the 3rd time...I don't know what you do besides pick your boogers and eat them so how was I attacking you again? The only person attacking anyone is you. Read through the posts Captain Butthurt.
  
  
  
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Umm, no. Again, you started the name calling game on bout your third post in this. I didn't resort to insults until YOU insulted the skilled trades by calling them shovel ready jobs. Which was like my last post. dumbass. Have I said this enuf yet? It's ok If you missed where I said I received work in the trades related jobs created by the economic recovery act. Those last three words I'm sure made you go masturbate to your shrine of uncle bucks av. Trying to erase the memory of such horrible words, But this is where I said what I do.

The picking your boogers line was pretty funny tho. I'll give that one to you.

You started the attacks long ago bub. Calling me manipulated, butthurt left, I can't remember all of em now but there were more. I ignored your baiting comments and kept it clean until my last post. Just like I said I would.
As far as emotional off topic drivel... Hows this? fuck you, you fuckin fuck.

• I could give 2 shits.
  
  
  
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Obviously you do.

• I joined this site before you...I'm well aware.
  
  

  • and want to taste Obama's sack.
    
    
    
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What? you want to taste obamas sack?
Pervert.

• They aren't my guys if you could actually fucking read.
  
  
  
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I've read just about enough of the garbage you post. For now.

• GOV is broken!
  
  
  
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No shit? Here in backwardsville we hadn't heard. The sky is falling! OMG. You should run and hide in your panic room before you get butt-raped by the masses for your wealth and sustenance.

• I'd ask you what the left has done?
  
  
  
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Where exactly would you like me to start?

• Kind of the point you missed up until now, but thanks for all the intermediary hate.
  
  
  
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No, I never missed the point at all. What bothered me initially is how you posted an emotional clip of the liberal view of sequestration and decided to "table" the conservative. If you want to start a thread about how bad the left is you should have chosen a different title. BTW, you started the hate long before me.(did I mention this yet?) I have exercised pretty good restraint in the face of your baiting comments all along. Until now. I have also presented to you legitimate facts and honest opinions. Most of which you ignored entirely. Choosing instead to hurl insults as a child would. I am wondering if you might not be suffering from memory loss due to oxygen deprivation from hotboxing in your closet.(Don't forget the ozium before you come out)

• HA. You organizing communities bro?
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Nah, not at all. I'm obviously doing a pretty good job at discrediting your erroneous opinions.

Lastly, I leave you with this. I never said I agreed w/all of the wanton reckless spending in our gov't. My point is If money is going to be spent I would like to see it going to help the middle class. PERIOD. Not to bail out big business' or banks, fund fruitless endeavors in foreign countries. Or going to immense and very lucrative(for some) defense contracts. Just to name a few. If you had not started with the name calling I would have gladly continued the debate. However, when you ran out of Rational arguments or points. You, not me took it to this level.
I'm gonna have fun with you 007.

ginwilly said:

And now they are growing at a rate of 8%. We grew at .1% last quarter. You won't be able to get past that. Seems you pointed pointed out some of the waste and abuse. They went to a flat tax eliminating some fraud and abuse.

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YOu really need to read about Estonias miraculous 8% gdp growth

ChesusRice said:

Please point out a country that used austerity measures to get out of a recession

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Please point out a country that borrowed its way out of a recession

please post some blog that copied Krugman's cherry picked data tying to show how 8% ain't that great while .1% with a created liquidity trap is.

Red1966 said:

Please point out a country that borrowed its way out of a recession

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You guys are trying in vain...

US borrowing tops 100% of GDP: Treasury

US debt has shot up $US238 billion ($A221.54 billion) to reach 100 per cent of gross domestic product after the government's debt ceiling was lifted, Treasury figures show.Treasury borrowing jumped on Tuesday, the data showed, immediately after President Barack Obama signed into law an increase in the debt ceiling as the country's spending commitments reached a breaking point and it threatened to default on its debt.

The new borrowing took total public debt to $US14.58 trillion, over end-2010 GDP of $US14.53 trillion, and putting it in a league with highly indebted countries like Italy and Belgium.Public debt subject to the official debt limit - a slightly tighter definition - was $US14.53 trillion as of the end of Tuesday, rising from the previous official cap of $US14.29 trillion a day earlier.

Treasury had used extraordinary measures to hold under the $US14.29 trillion cap since reaching it on May 16, while politicians battled over it and over addressing the country's bloating deficit.The official limit was hiked $US400 billion on Tuesday and will be increased in stages over the next 18 months.

The last time US debt topped the size of its annual economy was in 1947 just after World War II*

By 1981 it had fallen to 32.5 per cent.

Ratings agencies have warned the country to reduce its debt-to-GDP ratio quickly or facing losing its coveted AAA debt rating. Moody's said on Tuesday that the government needed to stabilise the ratio at 73 per cent by 2015 "to ensure that the long-run fiscal trajectory remains compatible with a AAA rating".

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Forecasts for 2013 fiscal year are around 108% of GDP.

*Buck pay attention

ginwilly said:

And now they are growing at a rate of 8%. We grew at .1% last quarter. You won't be able to get past that. Seems you pointed pointed out some of the waste and abuse. They went to a flat tax eliminating some fraud and abuse.

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I am in favor of a flat tax.

NLXSK1 said:

Because Obamacare requires insurance to have mandates for care that are overreaching. It is driving up the cost right now. If you tell an insurance company that they cannot put a dollar limit on a policy it causes the cost of the policy to rise. If you tell an insurance company that they must cover pre-existing conditions the cost of the policy will rise.

No the cost of insurance is going up now so greedy insurance companies can make a quick buck before the easy times are over. They are not being forced to pay for extra expenses yet but they do not hesitate to gain extra profit. This sir is greed.

If you take someone making a bit over minimum wage (say 8.00 an hour or 16,000 per year) and you tell their employer that they must be covered with a policy costing 400 bucks per month on top of their salary you are adding 40% to the cost of employing that person.
400$ a month? Where are you working? My wife just turned down a job solely because the insurance they offered was outrageous. It was with quite a reputable company as well. Close to 1000$ a month just in premiums. This was just the employees end.

Businesses and even GOVERNMENTS are cutting people's hours back to 29.5 or less because Obamacare considers 30 hours to be full time employment. It is already happening.
Yes I know this again only shows their greed. Cut back ppl.s hours forcing them to go on foodstamps and medicaid just to provide for their families. Making them depend more heavily on the gov't programs our country cannot afford. Just so these greedy fucking business' can have a better bottom line. There is a whole movm't now about wal-mart being the biggest welfare queen. Take advantage of the middle class by not offering benefits forcing the gov't to pick up the tab. disgusting

So, why dont you try to convince me that adding all these costs on to employers will not effect unemployment much less economic growth and I will smile and nod and then move along because you are not operating in reality, you are operating based on what a bunch of lying politicians told you.
No need to "smile and nod" Of course it will effect employment. Jobs at little higher than minimum wage with no benefits are arguably no better than no job at all. Especially when these poor folks give close to half their wages to tax and the rest goes to pay outrageous medical bills. If you have ever known anyone to spend any real time under medical care you would understand this. now if these folks can go to work for minimum wage knowing that their last dollar doesn't have to go to pay for a 300$ asprin Perhaps some will decide to go back to work before their Unemployment benefits run out. You have to make it worth it for ppl. to work.

Obama said that his health care program would cost under a trillion dollars. The CBO currently puts it somewhere at 2.5 trillion dollars. The numbers dont lie and the money needs to come from somewhere so the rates will continue to rise.
Obamacare Is designed to get the out of control health industry back under control.

What you need to understand is that the whole plan is just an effort to put private insurance companies out of business and force single payer health care upon the entire population of America. Well, except for congress which is exempt and the rich that will still be able to afford to pay privately. The poor and the middle class will be screwed and forced to take a policy that covers many things they dont need, is overly expensive and there will be no other options because that is how this program was designed.
I understand this probably better than you. I have several family members who work in the insurance industry. They are very nervous about all this and should be. No one is forced to accept the universal health care. If you have your own or do not want it you can opt out. your opinions about the poor and middle class being screwed is WAY OFF bub. There is no way it will cost more than what is already being charged by private insurance companies now. Read again how much the premium for the job my wife was offered. This comes to close to 12k per year! this is without copays and deductables. She would have gladly taken the job had it not been for this. How much more simple do I have to put it? So you are going to try and tell me that Obamacare is gonna cost me more than that?

If you want to argue with the statement above, please explain to me how you can eliminate the pre-existing condition clause and still call the system insurance... Because if you applied it to the automotive industry I could crash my car and then call an insurance company that I never paid and force them to accept me as a client and fix my car at their cost. Then when the car is fixed I just drop the policy... That isnt insurance... And that is what the industry is going to be forced to do. And that is why private insurance will fold and eliminate the competition for a single plan run by the government
Not an accurate analogy at all.

And if you think the government running it will make it cheaper or more efficient then you got bigger problems than your concept of healthcare
On most any other subject I would agree with you 100% Gov't has been shown not to make better business decisions than the private sector. This is like the first thing they tell you in Econ101. In this narrow instance we are talking about an industry run rampant w/ exorbitant fees and price gouging.Intent solely on lining a very few ppls pockets instead of providing a service they are paid to provide. Something must be and is being done for the general well being of the american public. Like it or not this is happening, and obama has close to 4 years to make sure it sticks.

How would you suggest getting this under control? My grandfather recently spent 10 days in the hospital. No intensive care or anything. His bill was close to 250K this sound reasonable to you?

I hate to be that guy who says Look at how well canada does with their national health care system, but yah look, ask a few what they think They all seem pretty happy w/ it. In fact I was reading one fellow RIUer's post the other day This guy born and raised canadian, now U.S. citizen. he swears that while he loves our country their system is much more efficient. I can look him up for you if you would like to ask him some questions.

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Seriously not trying to be obtuse here but I have had about enough of the medical industry and it's ugly little sister insurance. I am ready for a change, and obamacare will deffinitely benefit many I know.

MrDank007 said:

Bush tax cuts I figured he would say were too far out or something like only for the rich (sigh), but true nonetheless.

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You have got to be joking right? This is what you espouse as helping the middle class? I believe I covered this in like my first post on this thread. I and many americans received 300 dollars from this exceedingly generous "tax cut" I believe I said something like he paid my light bill or something.
Boy, I am still reaping the benefits from this.

ginwilly said:

Eastonia, Latvia, Lithuania are all shining examples of fixing an economy through reduction of government (austerity to some).

I'm looking, but I can't find any success stories that are comparable using Keynesian methods. Maybe somebody else can?
Anybody? Beuller?
http://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/estonia-and-austerity-another-exploding-cigar-for-paul-krugman/
Sixteen months after it joined the struggling currency bloc, Estonia is booming. The economy grew 7.6 percent last year, five times the euro-zone average. Estonia is the only euro-zone country with a budget surplus. National debt is just 6 percent of GDP, compared to 81 percent in virtuous Germany, or 165 percent in Greece. Shoppers throng Nordic design shops and cool new restaurants in Tallinn, the medieval capital, and cutting-edge tech firms complain they can’t find people to fill their job vacancies. It all seems a long way from the gloom elsewhere in Europe. Estonia’s achievement is all the more remarkable when you consider that it was one of the countries hardest hit by the global financial crisis. …How did they bounce back? “I can answer in one word: austerity. Austerity, austerity, austerity,” says Peeter Koppel, investment strategist at the SEB Bank. …that’s not exactly the message that Europeans further south want to hear. …Estonia has also paid close attention to the fundamentals of establishing a favorable business environment: reducing and simplifying taxes, and making it easy and cheap to build companies.

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You can't possibly be trying to compare the economies in these small countries to the complex goings on of america are you? A place like this can only go up in economic growth. After decades of communism these poor folks are just now getting to benefit from a democratic system. One would expect their economy to flourish. While our system is busting at the seams and really can only go down. Lets face it folks We are no longer the world leader we once were.

Estonia population 1.4 million people
Spent borrowed money to the tune of billions 2 months before their vaunted austerity program
Has unemployment equal to 15%
and has totally relied on the economys of their scandinavian neighbors
and they are no where even close to how their economy was doing in 2007

one more thing all the austerity cheerleaders leave out is they raised taxes and fees on everyone and everything

I figured some liberal idiot would post the Krugman chart as proof of 8% not being as good as 1%. Let's look at the rest of the graph and all laugh at Krugman's dishonesty.



Here's the really cool part. Krugman claims the downturn during 2007,8 on Austerity that began in 2009. Cheesus backed up his claim.

Nah, not at all. I'm obviously doing a pretty good job at discrediting your erroneous opinions.

Not really.

Lastly, I leave you with this. I never said I agreed w/all of the wanton reckless spending in our gov't. My point is If money is going to be spent I would like to see it going to help the middle class. PERIOD. Not to bail out big business' or banks, fund fruitless endeavors in foreign countries. Or going to immense and very lucrative(for some) defense contracts. Just to name a few. If you had not started with the name calling I would have gladly continued the debate. However, when you ran out of Rational arguments or points. You, not me took it to this level.

I would agree, but it's not and will not happen. And don't blame me for the name calling. Go back through it...you took a lot personal and I'm not sure why.
I'm gonna have fun with you 007. [/QUOTE]

Best of luck. Maybe I will have get back on site more frequently again.