Flat Tax: The Proof Is In The Pudding

Dan Kone

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
NoDrama said:
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And the primary reason we spend less money on the federal government than most other countries in the world is lack of public health care. Most countries are taxed higher but offer public health care usually free to their citizens. Even though this does raise their taxes they still come out ahead because that public health care costs them about half as much on the average as our private health care.
 
FlyLikeAnEagle

FlyLikeAnEagle

Well-Known Member
Switzerland also educates its people and not only has govt health care but they also have govt auto insurance, everything that right wingers hate exists in Switzerland.
 
Johnny Retro

Johnny Retro

Well-Known Member
False, the Swiss healthcare system is private but regulated (setting a fixed price) by the government. Their 'basic coverage' covers just about anything you can imagine. But for premium service insurance companies fight each other for the lowest rates. Another thing is your employer doesn't offer you health care, its all individual, EVERYONE pays the same amount.
They do not have government auto insurance
We also educate our people, in fact, our department of education has the largest budget in the world, but we are still "just average"
 
Johnny Retro

Johnny Retro

Well-Known Member
Dan Kone said:
I say that the 1% on the average make 90% of their income from investment sources which everything similar to "999" and flat taxes completely ignores.

So no, I don't think the wealthy should only pay taxes on ~10% of their incomes, but thanks for asking.
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So people who have the knowledge to make money in our stock markets should be penalized and taxed more? Some real smart thinking there...
So since you have the knowledge to build a house, or perform heart surgery, or go over someones business expenses (accountants) you should be taxed more? According to your statement.
I'm sorry you have never taken the time to educate your self about our markets and can't take advantage of such opportunities. And I'm sorry I don't think I should be penalized for that.
 
mame

mame

Well-Known Member
Johnny Retro said:
So people who have the knowledge to make money in our stock markets should be penalized and taxed more? Some real smart thinking there...
So since you have the knowledge to build a house, or perform heart surgery, or go over someones business expenses (accountants) you should be taxed more? According to your statement.
I'm sorry you have never taken the time to educate your self about our markets and can't take advantage of such opportunities. And I'm sorry I don't think I should be penalized for that.
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So it's okay with you that the median effective tax rate for those making 40-50k is higher than what 25% of millionaires pay? Because that's what's happening. Hell, 10% of all millionaires (or billionaires) pay an effective tax of just 4.2% or less and that's in large part because of the way they earn income - capital gains. Is that okay with you?

The way the system is now, those who make most of their money via capital gains are effectively taxed LESS than those in the middle class who pay payroll, income and/or sales taxes. Fair?
 
Johnny Retro

Johnny Retro

Well-Known Member
The way the system is now, the rich get penalized for working hard and taking risks(I.E creating jobs). While the poor get a bunch of tax breaks for taking no risks and not working hard. Fair?

When there ARE jobs people bitch that the corporations get taxed way to less and they should be giving our government more money. Then when these company's get fed up with paying 35% they move to different countries then people bitch and ask where all the jobs are. Kind of a double standard if you ask me.

You can't eat your cake, and have it too.
 
deprave

deprave

New Member
Fair enough the democrats talking point is what mame said above that median tax of non-millionaires can be more, and that its not fair, very true...The problem is when you go from 'thats not fair' to - millionaires should pay more. They are already being raped just like the rest of us, they pay half or more.

What would be fair is if everyone payed the same, what would be truly fair is if nobody payed ANY income taxes period, but I have already went over my feelings about Income tax being unconstitutional, morally wrong, and thievery. I can't believe how successful they have been at convincing people that income taxes are a good thing?

So what we have the real exceptions, the real 1%, General electric and its crony comrades that pay nothing...talk about unfair....Its not the people on wallstreet who are to blame, its not the people making a million dollars or less, or even billions...Its the crony mega-banks and mega-corporations that are above the law. The ones that have more rights then we the people over the last 30 years.
 
mame

mame

Well-Known Member
Johnny Retro said:
The way the system is now, the rich get penalized for working hard and taking risks(I.E creating jobs). While the poor get a bunch of tax breaks for taking no risks and not working hard. Fair?
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The poor pay less taxes because they're poor. You have a problem with that? Okay, then how would you like it if you were below the poverty line - already struggling to pay your bills and stay fed - and you were asked to pay as much taxes as those well above the poverty line? Increased taxes on the poorest segment of society would literally be taking food out of their mouths... the poor have little or no disposable income, after all. Overall, most poor people do still pay some taxes but many pay none at all. The reason that's okay, again, is because they are very poor - it's by design that they do not pay anything. Do a little reading on progressive taxation...

When there ARE jobs people bitch that the corporations get taxed way to less and they should be giving our government more money. Then when these company's get fed up with paying 35% they move to different countries then people bitch and ask where all the jobs are. Kind of a double standard if you ask me.
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Except American corporations generally pay MUCH less than 35%. In fact, the U.S. effective tax rate on corporations is very low compared to most other advanced nations.
 
mame

mame

Well-Known Member
deprave said:
Fair enough the democrats talking point is what mame said above that median tax of non-millionaires can be more, and that its not fair, very true...The problem is when you go from 'thats not fair' to - millionaires should pay more. They are already being raped just like the rest of us, they pay half or more.

What would be fair is if everyone payed the same, what would be truly fair is if nobody payed ANY income taxes period, but I have already went over my feelings about Income tax being unconstitutional, morally wrong, and thievery. I can't believe how successful they have been at convincing people that income taxes are a good thing?

So what we have the real exceptions, the real 1%, General electric and its crony comrades that pay nothing...talk about unfair....Its not the people on wallstreet who are to blame, its not the people making a million dollars or less, or even billions...Its the crony mega-banks and mega-corporations that are above the law. The ones that have more rights then we the people over the last 30 years.
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We dont agree often but you got most of it right... I'm not advocating that EVERY rich person should pay more, I only am worried about ~25% or so of millionaires who pay LESS than the middle class for no good reason at all. And the problem is indeed mega-banks and corporations who've rigged the system and who are above the law.
 
Johnny Retro

Johnny Retro

Well-Known Member
mame said:
The poor pay less taxes because they're poor. You have a problem with that? Okay, then how would you like it if you were below the poverty line - already struggling to pay your bills and stay fed - and you were asked to pay as much taxes as those well above the poverty line? Increased taxes on the poorest segment of society would literally be taking food out of their mouths... the poor have little or no disposable income, after all. Overall, most poor people do still pay some taxes but many pay none at all. The reason that's okay, again, is because they are very poor - it's by design that they do not pay anything. Do a little reading on progressive taxation...


Except American corporations generally pay MUCH less than 35%. In fact, the U.S. effective tax rate on corporations is very low compared to most other advanced nations.
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If you're poor, pick your self up by the boot straps and do something to better your life. There are plenty of opportunity's out there.
If these corporations were paying MUCH less than 35% why are they all moving over seas?
The answer is because, countries like Switzerland, have LOW corporate tax rates. So the Swiss get all our jobs while we sit back and bitch. Think about it..
What would YOU rather have? pay a little more taxes and actually have a job. Or pay no taxes on that job that you don't have..
 
mame

mame

Well-Known Member
Johnny Retro said:
If you're poor, pick your self up by the boot straps and do something to better your life. There are plenty of opportunity's out there.
If these corporations were paying MUCH less than 35% why are they all moving over seas?
The answer is because, countries like Switzerland, have LOW corporate tax rates. So the Swiss get all our jobs while we sit back and bitch. Think about it..
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No, it's because of cheaper labor; In China the median per capita income is between $5-6000 per year. Do you know any Americans who would work for that? Our POVERTY line is over 20k per year...

like I said, our EFFECTIVE corporate tax rates are very low compared to most advanced nations. If all we had to do to get jobs was have a low corporate tax rate, than we'd have plenty of jobs but that is not the case - is it? Of course not. I guess that blows your theory out the water...
 
Johnny Retro

Johnny Retro

Well-Known Member
Its not a theory, its a FACT that many companies are moving to Switzerland. Noble Corp, Transocean, Foster Wheeler, and Weatherford International. Just to name a few. There's a town in Switzerland called "Zug" that hosts 500 billion dollars of AMERICAN corporate wealth.
Do some research ;)

Jobs by corporation
Weatherford: 58,000
Foster Wheeler: 12,000
Transocean: 18,000
Noble Corp: 6,000
 
deprave

deprave

New Member
Yes and thats the core of the issue. We can agree on that. The answer to that problem has absolutely nothing to do with taxes on people. I don't see how making millionaires pay more is going to accomplish anything in this regard, that is kind of like trying to piss out a house fire while standing downwind. Democrats come out with so called "plans" to charge millionaires(who make exactly 1 million a year) an extra 500$....seriously..what the hell will that accomplish?


The gist of it is that giving our money to a government, especially a broken one, accomplishes practically nothing...


But...but...Deprave....wifout goberment taxes how iz the goberment going to get monies to get out of this crisis.....The same way we have done it before the last half a century...with tarrifs, contracts, and trade...Income tax is completely unnecessary for the government to make money.
 
N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Dan Kone said:
And the primary reason we spend less money on the federal government than most other countries in the world is lack of public health care. Most countries are taxed higher but offer public health care usually free to their citizens. Even though this does raise their taxes they still come out ahead because that public health care costs them about half as much on the average as our private health care.
Click to expand...
Its not really free if you are being taxed more up front to pay for it. I guess its free if you never pay taxes. If you give me $5 I will give you a free gallon of gasoline. See how that works?
 
deprave

deprave

New Member
There needs to be major reform of our entire system before we could have universal health-care that wouldn't cost us tons of jobs and money, simply taxing us more would not go anywhere.

I also think the argument that, "oh look xx% of americans don't have healthcare" and this a huge tragedy is a gross distortion of the truth. There is free clinics all over this country and I have opt'd out of my health insurance in the past just because it cost so much and you can just go to the free clinics and hospitals. Its really not that big of crisis, If you go to the E.R. its going to cost you an arm and leg but its not like your going to be turned away.
And if you can't afford to pay your bill you can simply provide proof that you can't pay your bill and they will work something out with you or flat out eliminate it.
 
mame

mame

Well-Known Member
Johnny Retro said:
Its not a theory, its a FACT that many companies are moving to Switzerland. Noble Corp, Transocean, Foster Wheeler, and Weatherford International. Just to name a few. There's a town in Switzerland called "Zug" that hosts 500 billion dollars of AMERICAN corporate wealth.
Do some research ;)

Jobs by corporation
Weatherford: 58,000
Foster Wheeler: 12,000
Transocean: 18,000
Noble Corp: 6,000
Click to expand...
They didn't go there because of low corporate tax rates, if you really think that's the only reason they could possibly be going there than you're sadly misinformed. Correlation without causation is all you've shown.
 
deprave

deprave

New Member
I feel like the corporations going over seas (republican argument) is distorted also, additionally another distortion is that our middle class jobs are going overseas (democrat argument). I have read quite a few papers proving that both of these ideas are essentially sensationalist ideas. When you look at the OVERALL numbers neither of the ideas are supported, both of these ideas are widely disputed in econ classrooms.
 
Johnny Retro

Johnny Retro

Well-Known Member
Many corporate jobs are middle class jobs. And they are moving overseas. I don't get how you can refute something that is proven and obviously taking an affect on our unemployment.
 
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