For All Cap Ebb and Grow Users

dtp5150

dtp5150

Well-Known Member
for a home made check valve just do what cap did....drill a small hole in the line or fitting, underneath the lid

I did this so i could have the drain tube go all the way to the bottom, eliminating the loud splashes. I just cut drilled a small hole in the rubber tubbing at the top. So quiet. Gotta make sure it leaks water when being used. Can do the same with the fill drain into the controller bucket to make that silenced too. And then just hang the pump by the cord so its suspended a little bit in the 55 gal rez and theres no vibration.
 
dtp5150

dtp5150

Well-Known Member
hellraizer30 said:
yah when I was using h202 I was hiting it with 200 to 250 ML for 55gal every 2 to 3 day and I had x3 res tanks thats alot of h202 lol
Click to expand...
You must realize that using all those air stones and bubbling the h2o2 is just making the h2o2 disinfect all the air you are shoving in your nute solution, therefore simply wasting your h2o2. That is why is you had to use so much.

HERE IS SOME KNOWLEDGE

Air stones dont put DO int he water by "bubbling" they put DO int he water because the bubbles move the water on the surface around. You would achieve much better efficiency in your goal of using a pump to add DO to water by simply using a water pump and making a little waterfall inside your res. Air pumps raise the temperature of water.

Or you could just let it drain like cap intended and there will already be two waterfalls in the line every cycle. One in the fill line into the rez, and one into the controller bucket.

It seems the root of everyones problems is water temperature. Big, Frozen, Water Bottles

Buy a plastic keg of water at the grocery store..they hold like 2 gallons. To reuse it, do NOT poke a hole for an air vent. Or just never use the water inside and use it like it is and throw it in the freezer. Should probably squeeze all the air first tho.
 
hellraizer30

hellraizer30

Rebel From The North
The issue with this system doesnt lie in the res, its in the water trapped in the lines after a flood, each line full
Of water sitting in direct like heating up and your roots just soaking in it is the problem! To solve it simple
Raise bucket x2 in above the control box, this put your roots out of the water and allows more water to return
To the res. Adding frozen water is a major pain in the ass! Im more of a make it simple kind of person so i bought
A chiller works awsome! As for h202 with air being the reason i used to add that much lol i disagree! More air the better!
Best thing you can try in your ebb is compost teas plain and simple, peace people of riu and keep it green
 
dtp5150

dtp5150

Well-Known Member
So by your reasoning its better to have the roots down there sitting in warm air than a constantly refreshing nute solution that is no more than 5 hours old during the day. That is horribly incorrect. Roots in warm air get root rot in hours.

I've never had a problem with root rot down there. Perhaps more cycles will fix the problem. That is of course, if your temperatures are in check.

With ebb&flow bucket systems, regardless of manufacturer, there is a natural tendency for each bucket to collect a small layer of particulate matter that is from the growing medium, unfiltered nutes, dust, etc. This should not be confused with algae or root rot. Without proper prevention and routine removal of the particulate matter, gooey roots in that area could accumulate.
 
hellraizer30

hellraizer30

Rebel From The North
Running more than x3 floods a day during lights on is a waist ive run all types of medium
And roots just do better out of the water!
 
T

tommyo3000

Well-Known Member
dtp5150 said:
You must realize that using all those air stones and bubbling the h2o2 is just making the h2o2 disinfect all the air you are shoving in your nute solution, therefore simply wasting your h2o2. That is why is you had to use so much.

HERE IS SOME KNOWLEDGE

Air stones dont put DO int he water by "bubbling" they put DO int he water because the bubbles move the water on the surface around. You would achieve much better efficiency in your goal of using a pump to add DO to water by simply using a water pump and making a little waterfall inside your res. Air pumps raise the temperature of water.

Or you could just let it drain like cap intended and there will already be two waterfalls in the line every cycle. One in the fill line into the rez, and one into the controller bucket.

It seems the root of everyones problems is water temperature. Big, Frozen, Water Bottles

Buy a plastic keg of water at the grocery store..they hold like 2 gallons. To reuse it, do NOT poke a hole for an air vent. Or just never use the water inside and use it like it is and throw it in the freezer. Should probably squeeze all the air first tho.
Click to expand...
Your snotty post is totally wrong, I am happy to say.
First of all, hellraizer was using a good dose for his reservoirs.. He wasn't adding H2O2 to clean water, which by the way would still have a bunch of stuff for H2O2 to oxidize even if it were R/O treated... Anyhow, he was using it in hydroponics reservoirs and that flowed in his buckets.. There is a lot of organic matter for the H2O2 to oxidize in there..

You contradict yourself.. you say he is shoving air into his nute solution... then you say the H2O2 is being wasted by disinfecting all the air he is injecting...
Well, let's dissect this: If as you contend, the O2 primarily dissipates in the film layer on top of the water (if it is agitated), then how is the H2O2 reacting to the air inside the solution and being wasted? If the O2 is not dissolved in the water at the bottom of the barrell at the air stone, how is the H2O2 reacting to it?
Furthermore, why would H2O2 react to the air anyhow? Is it polluted? What is it polluted with? How do you know this about hellraizer's growroom air?
EVEN IF the H2O2 WERE reacting to the polluted air WHICH DOES NOT EXIST, it would break down into OXYGEN, THUS Oxygenating the nutrient solution.. and certainly not being wasted.

These are a lot of "if's" which are all against what you contend...

Furthermore, air stones ***DO*** put DO in the water. Oxygen diffusion in the form of air bubbles in the bottom of the solution are the most effective way to aerate a body of water.
"In diffused aeration, oxygen transfer occurs during bubble formation, during the bubble's ascent to the surface, and at the water surface itself. Some researchers (Bewtra and Nicholas if you care to read their work) maintain that most oxygen transfer occurs during bubble formation when the interfacial area exposed to the liquid is constantly being renewed, although others contend that very significant transfer occurs during the bubble's ascent. Regardless of where the transfer occurs and all other things being equal , the rate of transfer is proportional to the area of contact between the liquid and the oxygen. This is the basic advantage of small bubbles."
Aeration: a wastewater treatment process By American Society of Civil Engineers, Water Pollution Control Federation
http://books.google.com/books?id=hrQsBAivZb4C&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=%22occurs+during+bubble+formation%22&source=bl&ots=rQFJHWh7I-&sig=Ty3YRGOFn9mNqeSPMvVUC4wLUh0&hl=en&ei=YVGiTv_vK8nliAKRiblk&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22occurs%20during%20bubble%20formation%22&f=false

see also http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/30000FB4.txt?ZyActionD=ZyDocument&Client=EPA&Index=1981%20Thru%201985&Docs=&Query=&Time=&EndTime=&SearchMethod=1&TocRestrict=n&Toc=&TocEntry=&QField=&QFieldYear=&QFieldMonth=&QFieldDay=&UseQField=&IntQFieldOp=0&ExtQFieldOp=0&XmlQuery=&File=D%3A%5CZYFILES%5CINDEX%20DATA%5C81THRU85%5CTXT%5C00000001%5C30000FB4.txt&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&SortMethod=h|-&MaximumDocuments=1&FuzzyDegree=0&ImageQuality=r75g8/r75g8/x150y150g16/i425&Display=p|f&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=3&ZyEntry=1
"Technology Assessment of Fine Bubble Aerators" by Jeremiah J. McCarthy, Wastewater Research Division, USEPA Municipal Environmental Research Laboratory, Cincinnati, Ohio
And no, you would not achieve much better or ANY better efficiency by simply making a waterfall. A waterfall is OK in nature when it is 100 feet tall, son, but a few feet to a few inches from the top of your barrell to the the bottom is no fucking waterfall. If you wanted to use a pump to aerate your 55 gallon drum, sprayers SRAYERS are what research says will maximize interface of water to oxygen... So you have to spray it into tiny droplets.. Again, either lots of tiny water droplets OR lots of tiny air bubbles are the ways to aerate solution. You have no grasp of either.
Oh, and how does an air pump raise the temp of water? Please tell us? If the room temp is higher than the water? From the air pump motor? Don't forget that Hellraizer runs a chiller, so it doesn't matter anyhow..
Oh, and please do explain why the water-cooled pump that you want to make a mini niagra falls with does not heat your nutrient? because it was sure designed to be water cooled...

Again, letting it drain like cap intended with those waterfalls in every cycle? Please.. How much DO does that achieve? It's not in tiny drops... It is a weak ass stream plopping through the air at low pressure and not achieving much gas exchange.

The answer to the root of peoples' water temp problems is------------- a water chiller. a 1/4HP water chiller.
buy a water chiller and hook it up to a pump and your rez.. No squeezing required.. AND you get awesome waterfall action when the chiller runs!!


and then in the next post you misunderstand hellraizer.. he says the roots sit in WARM WATER so he RAISES his buckets... Sitting in warm water would cause the roots to put out ethylene and invite pathogens, etc... Which is why he raises them and they rain completely, leaving a bucket full of moistened hydroton and A SHITLOAD OF OXYGEN... at 65degrees (temp that his CHILLED water just brought the medium down to).. Again, no warm air..


Then you impart more ***BARFFFFING*** """knowledge"""" barf
":With ebb&flow bucket systems, regardless of manufacturer, there is a natural tendency for each bucket to collect a small layer of particulate matter that is from the growing medium, unfiltered nutes, dust, etc. This should not be confused with algae or root rot. Without proper prevention and routine removal of the particulate matter, gooey roots in that area could accumulate.:"

Particulate matter, unfiltered nutes (why use those?), dust, etc... Hmmm, things that the H2O2 oxidized and are no longer there?
Why would some one confuse dust and unfiltered brown stuff with algae? the green stuff that grows in presence of light? And why would a film, such as the red hydroton dust which colors my roots a but be confused with root rot? and gooeyness that is not bacterial? wtf?

Again, I will drop the bomb of my magnficent knowledge on you, child... Root rot happens when a roots are unable to exchange gasses with their surroundings, such as in the bottom two inches of your "how cap designed it" ebb and grow... They sit in that water, use the DO in a matter of minutes, then they choke and produce ethylene and start to die... Then diseases can attack the weakened root system and it turns into a spiral of shittiness.. Boom - you have been knoweledge-ated..
for real.


Tommy


PS- What you made is not a check valve.. it is a hole.. which you drilled. If it were to be called something, you would call it an anti-siphon vent hole. NOT A CHECK VALVE, sucka
"Check valves are two-port valves, meaning they have two openings in the body, one for fluid to enter and the other for fluid to leave."
A check valve will only let water go one way... no matter if the water wants to come back through...
did you get ANYTHING right in any of those posts? WTF are you smoking? can I get a cutting?
 
T

tommyo3000

Well-Known Member
hellraizer30 said:
Very nice bit of info tommy rep to you sir
Click to expand...
Thanks.. I enjoyed getting a handle on this once and for all tonight :)
I made a few corrections already..

wow tho, I am all amped from that.. Apparently my life has boiled down to Friday night midnight to 2 AM = spending 2 hours researching and then crafting a post about the intricacies of water bubbles while listening to Access fucking Hollywood on the TV on my wall...

hrmmph...
 
jdmcwestevo

jdmcwestevo

Well-Known Member
tommyo3000 said:
Your snotty post is totally wrong, I am happy to say.
First of all, hellraizer was using a good dose for his reservoirs.. He wasn't adding H2O2 to clean water, which by the way would still have a bunch of stuff for H2O2 to oxidize even if it were R/O treated... Anyhow, he was using it in hydroponics reservoirs and that flowed in his buckets.. There is a lot of organic matter for the H2O2 to oxidize in there..

You contradict yourself.. you say he is shoving air into his nute solution... then you say the H2O2 is being wasted by disinfecting all the air he is injecting...
Well, let's dissect this: If as you contend, the O2 primarily dissipates in the film layer on top of the water (if it is agitated), then how is the H2O2 reacting to the air inside the solution and being wasted? If the O2 is not dissolved in the water at the bottom of the barrell at the air stone, how is the H2O2 reacting to it?
Furthermore, why would H2O2 react to the air anyhow? Is it polluted? What is it polluted with? How do you know this about hellraizer's growroom air?
EVEN IF the H2O2 WERE reacting to the polluted air WHICH DOES NOT EXIST, it would break down into OXYGEN, THUS Oxygenating the nutrient solution.. and certainly not being wasted.

These are a lot of "if's" which are all against what you contend...

Furthermore, air stones ***DO*** put DO in the water. Oxygen diffusion in the form of air bubbles in the bottom of the solution are the most effective way to aerate a body of water.
"In diffused aeration, oxygen transfer occurs during bubble formation, during the bubble's ascent to the surface, and at the water surface itself. Some researchers (Bewtra and Nicholas if you care to read their work) maintain that most oxygen transfer occurs during bubble formation when the interfacial area exposed to the liquid is constantly being renewed, although others contend that very significant transfer occurs during the bubble's ascent. Regardless of where the transfer occurs and all other things being equal , the rate of transfer is proportional to the area of contact between the liquid and the oxygen. This is the basic advantage of small bubbles."
Aeration: a wastewater treatment process By American Society of Civil Engineers, Water Pollution Control Federation
http://books.google.com/books?id=hrQsBAivZb4C&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=%22occurs+during+bubble+formation%22&source=bl&ots=rQFJHWh7I-&sig=Ty3YRGOFn9mNqeSPMvVUC4wLUh0&hl=en&ei=YVGiTv_vK8nliAKRiblk&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22occurs%20during%20bubble%20formation%22&f=false

see also http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/30000FB4.txt?ZyActionD=ZyDocument&Client=EPA&Index=1981%20Thru%201985&Docs=&Query=&Time=&EndTime=&SearchMethod=1&TocRestrict=n&Toc=&TocEntry=&QField=&QFieldYear=&QFieldMonth=&QFieldDay=&UseQField=&IntQFieldOp=0&ExtQFieldOp=0&XmlQuery=&File=D%3A%5CZYFILES%5CINDEX%20DATA%5C81THRU85%5CTXT%5C00000001%5C30000FB4.txt&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&SortMethod=h|-&MaximumDocuments=1&FuzzyDegree=0&ImageQuality=r75g8/r75g8/x150y150g16/i425&Display=p|f&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=3&ZyEntry=1
"Technology Assessment of Fine Bubble Aerators" by Jeremiah J. McCarthy, Wastewater Research Division, USEPA Municipal Environmental Research Laboratory, Cincinnati, Ohio
And no, you would not achieve much better or ANY better efficiency by simply making a waterfall. A waterfall is OK in nature when it is 100 feet tall, son, but a few feet to a few inches from the top of your barrell to the the bottom is no fucking waterfall. If you wanted to use a pump to aerate your 55 gallon drum, sprayers SRAYERS are what research says will maximize interface of water to oxygen... So you have to spray it into tiny droplets.. Again, either lots of tiny water droplets OR lots of tiny air bubbles are the ways to aerate solution. You have no grasp of either.
Oh, and how does an air pump raise the temp of water? Please tell us? If the room temp is higher than the water? From the air pump motor? Don't forget that Hellraizer runs a chiller, so it doesn't matter anyhow..
Oh, and please do explain why the water-cooled pump that you want to make a mini niagra falls with does not heat your nutrient? because it was sure designed to be water cooled...

Again, letting it drain like cap intended with those waterfalls in every cycle? Please.. How much DO does that achieve? It's not in tiny drops... It is a weak ass stream plopping through the air at low pressure and not achieving much gas exchange.

The answer to the root of peoples' water temp problems is------------- a water chiller. a 1/4HP water chiller.
buy a water chiller and hook it up to a pump and your rez.. No squeezing required.. AND you get awesome waterfall action when the chiller runs!!


and then in the next post you misunderstand hellraizer.. he says the roots sit in WARM WATER so he RAISES his buckets... Sitting in warm water would cause the roots to put out ethylene and invite pathogens, etc... Which is why he raises them and they rain completely, leaving a bucket full of moistened hydroton and A SHITLOAD OF OXYGEN... at 65degrees (temp that his CHILLED water just brought the medium down to).. Again, no warm air..


Then you impart more ***BARFFFFING*** """knowledge"""" barf
":With ebb&flow bucket systems, regardless of manufacturer, there is a natural tendency for each bucket to collect a small layer of particulate matter that is from the growing medium, unfiltered nutes, dust, etc. This should not be confused with algae or root rot. Without proper prevention and routine removal of the particulate matter, gooey roots in that area could accumulate.:"

Particulate matter, unfiltered nutes (why use those?), dust, etc... Hmmm, things that the H2O2 oxidized and are no longer there?
Why would some one confuse dust and unfiltered brown stuff with algae? the green stuff that grows in presence of light? And why would a film, such as the red hydroton dust which colors my roots a but be confused with root rot? and gooeyness that is not bacterial? wtf?

Again, I will drop the bomb of my magnficent knowledge on you, child... Root rot happens when a roots are unable to exchange gasses with their surroundings, such as in the bottom two inches of your "how cap designed it" ebb and grow... They sit in that water, use the DO in a matter of minutes, then they choke and produce ethylene and start to die... Then diseases can attack the weakened root system and it turns into a spiral of shittiness.. Boom - you have been knoweledge-ated..
for real.


Tommy


PS- What you made is not a check valve.. it is a hole.. which you drilled. If it were to be called something, you would call it an anti-siphon vent hole. NOT A CHECK VALVE, sucka
"Check valves are two-port valves, meaning they have two openings in the body, one for fluid to enter and the other for fluid to leave."
A check valve will only let water go one way... no matter if the water wants to come back through...
did you get ANYTHING right in any of those posts? WTF are you smoking? can I get a cutting?
Click to expand...
wow man u just pwn3d that guy +rep sir
 
dtp5150

dtp5150

Well-Known Member
I own 4 gallons of 35% h2o2 and the largest air pump hydrofarm makes ( also the smallest ). Ive custom made ebb&flow systems (and controller buckets using relays and shit from radio shack ) using my own 5 gallon buckets with larger than 55 gal rez and have used caps with 36 buckets. Ive made recirculating dwc setups, drip, flood drain, etc. Not like its my first day at the Rodeo. Currently I have an ebb&grow being used...OUTDOORS..with totally healthy clean roots. I've been involved with the design of huge ponds and techniques for keeping them algae free. The most efficient design, without any kind of doubt, uses cascading diffused waterfalls.

Throwing a water chiller and huge amount of air stones and huge amounts of h2o2 to battle the effects of mismanagement of reservoir temperatures when it could be avoided is more of a disease/disaster care situation instead of a preventative care scenario. The dude even said he got unsatisfactory results LOL.

I still found no valid rebuttal to my statement of how irrational it is to think having roots suspending growing in warm air is better than nute solution less than 5 hours old.

"Valve: A device for controlling the passage of fluid through a pipe or duct, esp. an automatic device allowing movement in one direction only." I'm pretty sure the hole in the pipe/fitting only allows the water to move in one direction only, since that is the point of design, and the anti-siphon properties have been verified tested! Its a rudimentary design, but its a valve! What I'm smoking is much better than anything you'll be getting.

And if you can't see why pumping air bubbles thru a solution of h2o2 that ur trying to use to increase the DO of the water with is a waste, I suggest you talk to a chemistry professor of some sort.

Im not here to argue. Just to drop knowledge. Peace out.
 
drgreentm

drgreentm

Well-Known Member
ok so here i go explaining this again. from experience with this system i can say the sitting water in the system is a problem and i will tell you why. first off this entire system is made of black plastic, and as we all know black absorbs allot of light and heat well with my last run i had massive problems with this the simple solution for me was to move the res in a bathroom right off of the grow room away from the lights and heat also i raised the pots up 2" from the controller to allow for full drainage. this helped but did not solve the problem and i was thinking wtf the res was at 65 steady and still getting funk in the res sure enough the control bucket that was still sitting next to the buckets had water in it after the drain cycle and it was HOT then when the system would flood it would contaminate my good water and take it back to the res (just because bacteria doesnt LIKE colder water does not mean it cant survive in it) so ultimately i ended up putting the controller next to the res in the other room with a hole in the wall feeding the buckets. this completely solved the problem and i havent used h202 in 2 weeks. my roots masses are now so dense i cant even drive a steak all the way through the hydroton and the lower buckets are so full of healthy white roots they are growing into the flood lines, i can say from experience it is better for the roots to be sitting in a dry lower bucket than nasty hot water simply stunting root growth and causing my plants to look sick as hell at about week 3 of flower (hints as soon as my roots reached the lower buckets). if i had to leave the controller in the room with the pots i would make a box lined in panda film to go over it to keep light absorption to a minimum. this is my experience with the system in the last 6 months of growing with it. i love the system now that all the problems have been addressed.
 
hellraizer30

hellraizer30

Rebel From The North
I dont think hes getting the point! Theres enough of us emplying these methods to justify our actions!
Although he might have some exp on larger systems of different types! The fact is some of the above
Statments just dont jive! Hey dr well said keep it green bro! As for dpt hang around you might learn
Something :)
 
R

Refusedpanda

Active Member
Just got back from the Long Beach expo and Sentinel actually had their kit on display. Well something that looked like a kit and the Aquahub folks had a booth and I talked to that guy for a while. Lots of cool stuff at the show, not to mention the tons of free crap. Under Current seemed to be a pretty big thing at the show, one company had a few displays set up at their own booth and various other booths.
 
dbkick

dbkick

Well-Known Member
hellraizer30 said:
I dont see it db?
Click to expand...
yo I spelled lying wrong and mr potroast was kind (shit I hope he didn't see that typo :o )enough to correct me after he spanked my hand for being bad, but thats all forgotten and we're cool now, VO prob still has a problem with me though
 
dbkick

dbkick

Well-Known Member
hellraizer, I might add you're a excellent mod, disciplined and knowledgeable , wrong thread for this I know but you're one of the new mods I have no problem with at all.
 
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