Genetic Chimera - Two-tone Lady

Hi all,

Just a quick question, I did a search for chimeras on the forums but all I found was the company Chimera Seeds, and a user by that name, so I had to ask. I've got a white widow growing in (about 5 weeks in) that's a genetic chimera. It has leaves with distinct lines of color (dark green next to light green) that isn't the natural growth pattern of my other widows. I've confirmed that clones from the plant also display the same characteristic. My main concern was about it becoming a hermaphrodite as a result (I figure if color was crossed, sex may also be), but have seen nothing but good looking preflowers so far. I've been checking closely, but I'll upload a few pictures of the mother later for verification. For now, here's a picture of a clone I cut from it. Other clones also display the same characteristic. My question is has anyone had this? How common is it, and do problems often result? It is the strongest growing of my widows, and a unique beauty. I'd love for nothing bad to come of keeping her.

Cheers!

Here's a photo I pulled off of Google that's a little more drastic than mine, but the exact same idea.

I'm guessing by the lack of responses, this is much more rare than I had assumed. I'm going to publish updates to the thread with my findings, to help get this question answered for others down the road. As of now I am almost 6 weeks into veg, and still see nothing but female pre-flowers. Unless my eyes have deceived me, I think this is going to be a bountiful female. I'm flipping to flower in one more week, if everything goes according to schedule. Long veg, I know, I'm scrogging with too few plants this time around. Will still keep a close eye on her, of course, and report back if anything changes. I'm particularly curious if the mutation also affects the bud that comes from her, or if it's leaves only. It might be neat to have some buds that were 2 shades of green, split right down the middle! Still looking for anything more scientific on the matter, or personal experiences. Something more than what I got off the Wikipedia page on chimeras in general. That's all for now!

riffraff8 said:

I'm guessing by the lack of responses, this is much more rare than I had assumed. I'm going to publish updates to the thread with my findings, to help get this question answered for others down the road. As of now I am almost 6 weeks into veg, and still see nothing but female pre-flowers. Unless my eyes have deceived me, I think this is going to be a bountiful female. I'm flipping to flower in one more week, if everything goes according to schedule. Long veg, I know, I'm scrogging with too few plants this time around. Will still keep a close eye on her, of course, and report back if anything changes. I'm particularly curious if the mutation also affects the bud that comes from her, or if it's leaves only. It might be neat to have some buds that were 2 shades of green, split right down the middle! Still looking for anything more scientific on the matter, or personal experiences. Something more than what I got off the Wikipedia page on chimeras in general. That's all for now!

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I've had leaves with yellow parts on them but not that much. Can't see it being a beneficial mutation, lack of chlorophyll. An interesting anomaly though. Maybe through selective breeding you could develop a gold cannabis strain. Could it photosynthesize? IDK. Maybe.

Wow, that's amazing. I've never seen that before. My only concern would be that with half the leaves so light, the plant might not be able to photosynthesize as well as plants with fully dark leaves, which could affect growth and bud development. But aside from that, I think it's a real find. If I had one of those pop from one of my seeds, I'd save it and keep one in veg all the time just for the novelty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variegation

Variegation... You're welcome

Yea, as I said its definitely growing faster than my other plant which is all the darker shade. Not much of a sample size, though, I'll be curious to compare it to other seeds of the same strain/source and see what other phenos I get and how they compare. I'll definitely be keeping this one around, though, for as long as I can. And will be reading up on variegation, thanks for the link! Here are a couple photos of the mother. I'll take some better ones when I dig out my real camera.

You'll see it's definitely not all over, but it does find its way onto at least a leaf or two on just about every main branch. In some of the pictures its hard to even spot which leaf or two is exhibiting it until you look for a minute (some where's Waldo?) It seems to show up more frequently on the fan leaves, and I recently trimmed a bunch of those, so she's currently looking a little more "normal" than she usually does.

When the leaves hook or slice to one side and you have light stripe's on the side it bends towards.

That is an indication of Broad mites!

Broad mites are tiny - The size of the diameter of a white fly leg! TINY!

The dig into the main leaf stem along the leaf body and are next to impossible to kill with a contact killer.

BEST bet to kill the suckers is Forbid 4F - Small affordable amounts can be had on Ebay...

By the look of your pics - That's what ya got - Broad Mites!


Before someone rolls in and says it's TMV/Sunn Hemp V.......Wrong!

Interesting and horrifying deduction! I did some reading up on broad mites, and would love for it not to be that! I've only got a 40x jewelers loupe, and haven't been able to identify any mites so far. I've given the underside of the leaves a once-over, and nothing was moving or looked amiss. What do you recommend for seeing them? I heard someone online mention 400x-500x + which starts getting into serious microscope territory. I'd rather spend the money resolving the problem, than just on a big scope to identify it. But then of course, I don't want to treat anything that I haven't confirmed, where at all possible, so maybe there's a good middle-ground scope I can get to verify?

The strange thing is that the clones show more of what you've described than the mother, more curling and discoloration (looks like a lack of chlorophyll, with no necrosis or anything that looks bad) - yet the clones from that plant are in with clones from an unaffected plant, (have been for weeks) and the other clones show no sign of it. I was using that as a genetic indicator as to which clones came from which mother, because I can tell without labeling them. Same with the two mothers, the other doesn't exhibit any signs that could be seen as broad mite damage. Have been in there together for ~6 weeks and the other hasn't shown any of the signs described. Both of them look completely healthy, aside from the discoloration and slight curling on one. Obviously I won't wait to find out, I just thought it curious that if it is a broad mite issue, they don't seem to care about any of my plants but that one and it's clones.

Dr. Who said:

When the leaves hook or slice to one side and you have light stripe's on the side it bends towards.

That is an indication of Broad mites!

Broad mites are tiny - The size of the diameter of a white fly leg! TINY!

The dig into the main leaf stem along the leaf body and are next to impossible to kill with a contact killer.

BEST bet to kill the suckers is Forbid 4F - Small affordable amounts can be had on Ebay...

By the look of your pics - That's what ya got - Broad Mites!


Before someone rolls in and says it's TMV/Sunn Hemp V.......Wrong!

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If it is you can kill them by keeping your co2 levels 10k+ ppm for 2 hours, any insect will be dead in the tent. This method is really dangerous and only should be considered in tent that has been sealed(Taped off).

BamaBoyBeRolling said:

If it is you can kill them by keeping your co2 levels 10k+ ppm for 2 hours, any insect will be dead in the tent. This method is really dangerous and only should be considered in tent that has been sealed(Taped off).

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Thanks for the tip! I'm not currently running CO2, so it may take more effort to get everything sealed off and run it than the suggested chemical treatments would take, but I'll definitely factor it into my research if I confirm broad mites. That, and the suggestions regarding 120 degree F heat for 20-30 minutes both sound much SAFER on my plants over chemicals, though I know that insecticides degrade over time, and I'm still in the veg stage so I believe I can still go the chemical route if need be. Not sure on their effectiveness, however, so I'll have to further research. I've heard broad mites are hell to get rid of, if I've got them. Also did a little reading about predatory mites, but I'm not sure what's left over when they eat all your broad mites and then die themselves, or whether this is suggested for indoor use or only outdoor. I'll be doing some more thorough research as I wait to identify if there is a problem. Until then, the most valuable information to me would be regarding the proper zoom level I need on a scope to catch them if they're there, or whether I should be able to see them under my 40x. I'd like to buy a proper scope right away if anyone has suggestions that aren't crazy overkill for the mission. Much appreciated!

Just a quick update here: I found a thread with someone growing white widow (same strain) and having a problem that looks exactly the same as what mine look like (specifically picture 1). https://www.rollitup.org/t/white-widow-veg-stage-leaves-curling-sideways.441460/ This was back in 2011, but there were suggestions that is was tobacco mosaic virus. I've done some research on that as well, and it seems to resemble the 'problem' even less than broad mite damage, which from my research only partially resembles what I've got going on. Not that I've ruled anything out, just that I have yet to prove that my plants are at all unhealthy. Will keep researching and looking at scopes!

I can't see the pictures on my phone unless they are loaded as full size image but I don't think you have a problem from the way you describe it..

I've done a little more reading, and it seems like its either broad mites or a genetic mutation. A mutation would most likely have no affect on yield and is obviously not contagious, but would show up in clones. A broad mite infestation would also show up in clones (from mites living on the cut clones), but sounds as if it often makes cloning difficult, if not impossible. I found these clones propegated equally well as they grow, that is better than the other phenotype of the same strain growing side-by-side. That is my first clue that it might not be mites. My second is as I mentioned that the plants and clones which are 'afflicted' have been with others for many weeks or months, and there is zero evidence of any of the same signs on the other plants. Third is that when I Google broad mite signs/symptoms, I see a few images that look like what I have (could be misdiagnosed), and many, many more that exhibit some necrosis, leaf edges folding up, while entire leaves curl down, skinnier leaves, and browning on tips. And then a range of things that look more like tobacco mosaic, which I'm no longer convinced is even an affliction that can affect cannabis, after reading so much misinformation. At any rate, my plants have looked the same for months and are growing great despite the coloration and side-curling. While much of what I've seen related to broad mites exhibits side-curling, it is almost always along with other worse and more noticeable symptoms that mine do not exhibit. I'm going to be overly cautious and vigilant until I'm sure (and then even more after), but I'm leaning slightly towards it being just a genetic mutation as first thought at this point, until I can scope better. I gave my girls a really good check all over with the 40x as carefully as I could, and couldn't find any movement or anything amiss.

riffraff8 said:

broad mites

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had them on one plant looks like your pic. lite and dark green markings with twist they suck well take over plant in flower clones had them also won't see them... Forbid 4F worked http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/forbid-4f-ornamental-insecticide-miticide-p-2332.html?gclid=CjwKEAiArdG1BRCLvs_q-IObwxMSJACXbLtzYxKU6B2WoxNXtfZHMvQzdwwML9skKdFlhAzyGW3e-BoCAM3w_wcB

for veg. use only
good luck

Terry385 said:

had them on one plant looks like your pic. lite and dark green markings with twist they suck well take over plant in flower clones had them also won't see them... Forbid 4F worked http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/forbid-4f-ornamental-insecticide-miticide-p-2332.html?gclid=CjwKEAiArdG1BRCLvs_q-IObwxMSJACXbLtzYxKU6B2WoxNXtfZHMvQzdwwML9skKdFlhAzyGW3e-BoCAM3w_wcB

for veg. use only
good luck

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Damn, I was hoping not to get more people suggesting broad mites, but I appreciate the feedback. To those of you who have experienced the mites before, what do you think of the description of a two-tone mutation (variegation) on this page? http://www.growweedeasy.com/weird-or-what#two-toned-leaves
Do you think those are also misidentified broad mite infections, or can you discern a difference between those pictures and what I have?

my avatar pic is a clone from this one

Terry385 said:

View attachment 3602014 View attachment 3602015 my avatar pic is a clone from this one

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I can't see a large enough version of your avatar pic to make it out, but the other two, along with what I've read elsewhere has convinced me to order a microscope, so we'll know for sure within 12 hours I think. I'm still not quite convinced, or maybe I'm just overly optimistic and don't love the Forbid 4F pricetag and application process, along with the others I've read that should be cycled in before or after, aka a full-on battle with the nasty things. After all, I sleep ~4 feet from the closet that my tent is in. There's negative pressure & a carbon filter, and I know how to follow safety instructions / procedures, but that still sketches me out. God, I hope you're both wrong! Either way I'll keep you posted, and if not I'll appreciate your expert advice when I go to war!

So the microscope is on its way, should be here in a couple hours and then I'll get down to some good old-fashioned scrutiny. Until then, I've got pics of both mothers together, the one 'affected' and the one that never was, at least not to my eyes. The 'clean' plant is the front left, with the strange, possibly soon to be very sad girl in question behind her and off to the right. I haven't found any hook-leaves or discoloration on the one in front, you'll notice there's one big preflower right in the middle with just about every lead hooked around clockwise, but I've confirmed that's connected to the same mother we've been discussing. Please let me know if anyone spots anything I dont, thanks!

I'll also extremely curious to check out my eggplant with the scope. It's in a different room on a window sill, but the eggplant was in with the white widows under the same CFLs for a couple days when they were all babies. I've definitely learned my lesson about keeping house plants away! And have definitely read that broad mites like eggplant and can come in on it. I haven't yet done the research on what broad mite eggplant issues look like, but if it exhibits itself in eggplant as these brown mottled splotches with necrosis on random leaves and eventual leaf death, and on cannabis as this discoloration and leaf twisting, then its probably safe to assume that the mites came from the eggplant and are causing the problems for both. If eggplant broad mite symptoms do not look like this.. Well then I still haven't ruled anything out, I've just got a separate problem to try and fix after I work out my window issue. Nobody in here is an expert on eggplant, are they? Haha, worth a try!