Hamas offensive against Israel

k0rps said:

A. Screenshot of the article (with hyperlink to updates about Israel's notice.)
View attachment 5335339

An article from Al Jazeera about Israel's orders:

"Israel’s army has ordered the evacuation of all civilians living in Gaza City and in the north of the Gaza Strip ahead of a feared ground offensive on the besieged enclave.

The directive came on Friday on the heels of what the United Nations said was a warning they received from Israel to evacuate 1.1 million people living in the north of Gaza within 24 hours."

Israel orders 1.1 million people in Gaza to move south: What to know

UN warns it is ‘impossible for such a movement to take place without devastating humanitarian consequences’.

www.aljazeera.com

B. Compare and contrast (the real issue here) living in an apartheid state, being held captive with little to no food, water, fuel and electricity to living in a comfortable civilization protected by one of the most advanced intelligence military and technology like the iron dome.


C. Palestine: Daily struggle to survive in brutal living environments, continually harassed by Israeli soldiers.
Israel: "while we occupy the Arab's land, we'll give them minimal resources, invite all our families, steal more land, continue the cycle of oppression and if/when they do anything about it we'll just make an example of them.. just be sure to give em a day's warning.. to move in an even more condensed area. And, don't worry guy's, we told them where to go! If they don't leave, f**k em!"

An eye for an eye or in this case an eye for a few bodies, is not, imho, an appropriate solution to ending the oppression of Gaza (or even an appropriate response to Hamas attacks) but is simply the (contined) racist expansion of Israel slash destruction of Palestinian life and communities.

My heart goes out to all the suffering people's of this world. Genuinely hoping for Israel to stop the genocide and captivity of innocent people. Or, at least for the US to stop their "unwaivering support" from every president since the occupation began. It's sickening..

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I would add that much of Palestinian suffering is the result of Israeli “containment”.

However, Hamas threw away opportunities to help civilians in Gaza. That water pipeline that the EU funded and for which it provided the material — Hamas either diverted it from its intended use or tore it out of the ground in order to build those rockets.

Hamas is not motivated by the welfare of the people it should represent. They’re too busy waging a campaign driven by their blood hatred of the nation of Israel.

So in my semi-informed opinion, Hamas is no less guilty of oppression of its charges.

No matter how you slice it on either side, it comes up authoritarian assholes.

cannabineer said:

I feel for the ordinary Palestinians as well, and I agree that the very short window of action set by Israel is bullshit. I walk back my suggestion that Israel’s warning is anything other than a sort of psychological terror.

However the imperative to root Hamas out is reasonable as well.

I would have said that, had Hamas and Hezbollah been less violent, an accommodation might be reached.

But you have two states who hate each other’s guts contesting the same land.

And you have leadership in Israel going fascist, which bodes really badly for Palestinians.

I do not see an equitable solution for either party here.

Whoever convinced Hamas to do this thing now sure knew just where to place the wrench in the works.

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They are giving a day warning to cover themselves for attacking residential areas. Because they gave warning now it is the people's fault if they get hurt.

printer said:

They are giving a day warning to cover themselves for attacking residential areas. Because they gave warning now it is the people's fault if they get hurt.

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Had it been a warning in reasonable advance, perhaps.

It occurs to me that Israel could offer to relocate hospital patients, those babies in the neonatal ward, the generally infirm (and their families) in convoys of ambulances etc.

If Hamas messes with any of those, they lose any fiction that they are about the welfare of Palestinians. Israel could score a PR coup.

But alas, Netanyahu is too busy going down the path of Jewry’s greatest enemy in still-living memory.

It’s screwed in several dimensions.

I generally ignore this struggle; it has been going on all my life and has no resolution that I can see. Now however it is becoming geopolitical in a larger context and is back on my radar. Iran and Russia could be involved, but I think Hamas might have blindsided them on this, if they told them, then governments make reports and put them on computers and America and western allies would find out. We will see, but they did support them with arms, or at least the Iranians did, and Wagner might be involved, with or without the Russian government's knowledge. We will know soon, perhaps Zelensky will make a visit to Israel for the inevitable ceremony for the victims and have a chat about defense. Or Israeli officials could visit Ukraine, or they could just bomb the shit out of Iran when they are done with Hamas locally. In any case it might affect drone and missile deliveries to Russia.

Israel is going into Gaza with air cover, and we will see how many innocents die in the operation, the whole world is watching so they had better be half way civil about it, dead women and children are bad PR and will arouse the Muslim world.

Israeli Airstrike on Gaza Civilian Convoy Kills 70—Mostly Women and Children: Report
The alleged massacre followed an Israeli order for people in northern Gaza to evacuate to "save their lives" ahead of an expected massive ground invasion.

"After warning 1.1 million Palestinians to evacuate northern Gaza ahead of an expected ground invasion of the besieged enclave, Israeli forces reportedly bombed a civilian convoy on Friday, killing 70 people—mostly women and children—according to the territory's Interior Ministry.

Interior Ministry spokesperson Iyad Al-Buzm said the convoy was struck as around 150 civilians were making their way through the Al-Zeytoun neighborhood in Gaza City. Hamas—which governs Gaza—said the convoy was hit in three places.

Videos posted on social media showed the convoy, including a towed trailer packed with people, before and after it was hit by the Israeli airstrike. Graphic footage of the attack's aftermath showed dead bodies strewn about the street, as well as wounded victims in a local hospital.

The alleged attack came after Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant warned that Palestinians wishing to "save their lives" must evacuate to the south within 24 hours before an expected invasion.

Israel's air, land, and sea bombardment of Gaza—home to 2.3 million people and one of the world's most densely populated areas—has already killed nearly 2,000 people, including more than 600 children, and wounded nearly 8,000 others since Saturday, when Gaza-based Hamas and other militants launched a surprise cross-border attack that left over 1,300 Israelis dead."

k0rps said:

Israeli Airstrike on Gaza Civilian Convoy Kills 70—Mostly Women and Children: Report
The alleged massacre followed an Israeli order for people in northern Gaza to evacuate to "save their lives" ahead of an expected massive ground invasion.

"After warning 1.1 million Palestinians to evacuate northern Gaza ahead of an expected ground invasion of the besieged enclave, Israeli forces reportedly bombed a civilian convoy on Friday, killing 70 people—mostly women and children—according to the territory's Interior Ministry.

Interior Ministry spokesperson Iyad Al-Buzm said the convoy was struck as around 150 civilians were making their way through the Al-Zeytoun neighborhood in Gaza City. Hamas—which governs Gaza—said the convoy was hit in three places.

Videos posted on social media showed the convoy, including a towed trailer packed with people, before and after it was hit by the Israeli airstrike. Graphic footage of the attack's aftermath showed dead bodies strewn about the street, as well as wounded victims in a local hospital.

The alleged attack came after Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant warned that Palestinians wishing to "save their lives" must evacuate to the south within 24 hours before an expected invasion.

Israel's air, land, and sea bombardment of Gaza—home to 2.3 million people and one of the world's most densely populated areas—has already killed nearly 2,000 people, including more than 600 children, and wounded nearly 8,000 others since Saturday, when Gaza-based Hamas and other militants launched a surprise cross-border attack that left over 1,300 Israelis dead."

Israeli Airstrike on Gaza Civilian Convoy Kills 70—Mostly Women and Children: Report | Common Dreams

The alleged massacre followed an Israeli order for people in northern Gaza to evacuate to "save their lives" ahead of an expected massive ground invasion.

www.commondreams.org

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Hamas could have been trying to sneak out with the convoy, the place is covered with drones that can see the bugs crawling on the ground, or maybe they or the pilot didn't give a fuck. Maybe Hamas thought the hostages they held would stay the hand of the Israeli's, but they are far too pissed off for them to make any difference, they will try to rescue those they can, but nothing is gonna stop Gaza from being leveled and the Hamas found there summarily executed on the spot in many cases, unless they need them for information and then some waterboarding I suspect. I dunno if Gaza will exist when this is done, what will happen to the people I have no idea, but a lot of them will die.

cannabineer said:

I would add that much of Palestinian suffering is the result of Israeli “containment”.

However, Hamas threw away opportunities to help civilians in Gaza. That water pipeline that the EU funded and for which it provided the material — Hamas either diverted it from its intended use or tore it out of the ground in order to build those rockets.

Hamas is not motivated by the welfare of the people it should represent. They’re too busy waging a campaign driven by their blood hatred of the nation of Israel.

So in my semi-informed opinion, Hamas is no less guilty of oppression of its charges.

No matter how you slice it on either side, it comes up authoritarian assholes.

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Curious on your idea of what an oppressed army should do or use for weapons? Or should they just stick to being prisoners, humiliated, tortured and killed off?

I'm sure many of the resistance fighters have the mind set of dying on their feet then to carry on scrounging on their knees. It's my opinion, of course. Just feel super shitty how a bully like the Israeli army is getting away with murdering an ancient city, right in front of our eyes. I stopped watching, it's disheartening.


..Also to mention the many journalists killed and news outlets purposefully (or "unintentionally") destroyed by the IDF? The list is too long for Israel to not be condemned for their actions.


How many total is that now compared to Hamas or any Palestinian resistance? I couldn't find it..

k0rps said:

Curious on your idea of what an oppressed army should do or use for weapons? Or should they just stick to being prisoners, humiliated, tortured and killed off?

I'm sure many of the resistance fighters have the mind set of dying on their feet then to carry on scrounging on their knees. It's my opinion, of course. Just feel super shitty how a bully like the Israeli army is getting away with murdering an ancient city, right in front of our eyes. I stopped watching, it's disheartening.


..Also to mention the many journalists killed and news outlets purposefully (or "unintentionally") destroyed by the IDF? The list is too long for Israel to not be condemned for their actions.

Journalist slain, 6 injured after Israeli shell lands on group of reporters

An Associated Press photographer saw the body of the dead journalist and the six who were wounded. Images from the scene showed a charred car.

www.pennlive.com

How many total is that now compared to Hamas or any Palestinian resistance? I couldn't find it..

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To your first paragraph, “something that doesn’t steal from the mouths of the thirsty”.

To your second, no disagreement that the Israelis are being heavy-handed. Some of that might have been made worse by the savagery of the Hamas attacks … bwdik.

To the third, conceded. I do wonder how many journalists et al. we’re killed or maimed by the Hamas attacks.

I think neither side here has clear title to the high road.

I dislike Israel’s hit-you-back-first policies. But I dislike Hamas’s “civilians are good targets” performance more.

k0rps said:

Curious on your idea of what an oppressed army should do or use for weapons? Or should they just stick to being prisoners, humiliated, tortured and killed off?

I'm sure many of the resistance fighters have the mind set of dying on their feet then to carry on scrounging on their knees. It's my opinion, of course. Just feel super shitty how a bully like the Israeli army is getting away with murdering an ancient city, right in front of our eyes. I stopped watching, it's disheartening.


..Also to mention the many journalists killed and news outlets purposefully (or "unintentionally") destroyed by the IDF? The list is too long for Israel to not be condemned for their actions.

Journalist slain, 6 injured after Israeli shell lands on group of reporters

An Associated Press photographer saw the body of the dead journalist and the six who were wounded. Images from the scene showed a charred car.

www.pennlive.com

How many total is that now compared to Hamas or any Palestinian resistance? I couldn't find it..

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I wouldn't call Hamas an army, they are terrorists and murders, the Russian army doesn't even do that shit and I wouldn't call them an army either. They choose a dumb ass path in the past which put them in this position today and have sealed their fate. I hope Israel is restrained for several reasons among them loss of allied support by committing mass atrocities which will motivate war with Muslim states and other groups. Hamas is not defending the Palestinian people they are using them for their own radical agenda and kill any political opposition among the Palestinians to it. They rule in Gaza like Hitler ruled in Germany and I don't believe they were freely elected in such an environment, if you opposed their plan you would be dead.

We will see, there is not much we can do but bear witness to the events, international law and humanity should be our guide for the innocent, the guilty have sealed their fate by the blood on their hands.

cannabineer said:

I have sympathy for those who cannot move in time. But those who “chose to stay” or “heeded Hamas” have forfeited any righteous voice. I hope they come through ok, but if they don’t, it’s on them.

Keep in mind that Palestinians and Hamas are not the same thing.

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To the bold, that is both surprising and sad to read. Seeing you state that Palestinians and Hamas are not the same thing makes me believe that you would understand Palestinians are also victims of Hamas terrorist actions against Israelis. Unless your "chose to stay" or "heeded Hamas" is the way you're choosing to describe people fighting with Hamas, which I would argue they are a terrorist (but then why hope they come through ok?); but "chose to stay" or "heeded Hamas" in regards to innocent non-combatant civilians, sounds cruel.

To see "chose to stay" when many don't have the option to leave, literally can't and have never been able access proper documentation to leave, honestly it looks bad. For those that can't and/or never had the option to leave, do they really have a choice except to stay where the terrorist with the gun is telling them to be?

Maybe, hopefully, I am reading that wrong and it was not intended that way.

The amount of dehumanization happening everywhere is concerning. Pointing at what either side is doing/has done to innocent people to justify either sides own horrific actions does not make any sense. Hearing about dead innocent children is heartbreaking, doesn't matter where they're from, all equally heartbreaking.

CANON_Grow said:

To the bold, that is both surprising and sad to read. Seeing you state that Palestinians and Hamas are not the same thing makes me believe that you would understand Palestinians are also victims of Hamas terrorist actions against Israelis. Unless your "chose to stay" or "heeded Hamas" is the way you're choosing to describe people fighting with Hamas, which I would argue they are a terrorist (but then why hope they come through ok?); but "chose to stay" or "heeded Hamas" in regards to innocent non-combatant civilians, sounds cruel.

To see "chose to stay" when many don't have the option to leave, literally can't and have never been able access proper documentation to leave, honestly it looks bad. For those that can't and/or never had the option to leave, do they really have a choice except to stay where the terrorist with the gun is telling them to be?

Maybe, hopefully, I am reading that wrong and it was not intended that way.

The amount of dehumanization happening everywhere is concerning. Pointing at what either side is doing/has done to innocent people to justify either sides own horrific actions does not make any sense. Hearing about dead innocent children is heartbreaking, doesn't matter where they're from, all equally heartbreaking.

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I’ve moderated that opinion after reading that a 24-hour compliance with the warning is not only impossible, but a call to chaos.

As far as “chose to stay”, I went off a news article for that. I do not confuse those with no option with those who did and stayed.

Your remark about dead innocents is spot-on imo. That is the lasting consequence.

From my latest posts, I hope you can conclude that I am not pursuing a partisan agenda. I despise Hamas without that extending to folks in Hamas territory. I also unsupport Netanyahu and his fellow Stalinists.

cannabineer said:

I’ve moderated that opinion after reading that a 24-hour compliance with the warning is not only impossible, but a call to chaos.

As far as “chose to stay”, I went off a news article for that. I do not confuse those with no option with those who did and stayed.

Your remark about dead innocents is spot-on imo. That is the lasting consequence.

From my latest posts, I hope you can conclude that I am not pursuing a partisan agenda. I despise Hamas without that extending to folks in Hamas territory. I also unsupport Netanyahu and his fellow Stalinists.

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My mistake for not seeing the newer posts before submitting my post, started typing hours ago but stepped away. It was clear I read that comment incorrectly after reading the latest posts, my apologies.

CANON_Grow said:

My mistake for not seeing the newer posts before submitting my post, started typing hours ago but stepped away. It was clear I read that comment incorrectly after reading the latest posts, my apologies.

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No worries. I’m feeling my way around new corners.

“Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed” ‏(Genesis 9:6‏). Thus God proclaims to Noah and his sons when they emerge from the ark after the Flood. The message here is that a murderers must be punished


murderers ok civilians not ok

cannabineer said:

To your first paragraph, “something that doesn’t steal from the mouths of the thirsty”.

To your second, no disagreement that the Israelis are being heavy-handed. Some of that might have been made worse by the savagery of the Hamas attacks … bwdik.

To the third, conceded. I do wonder how many journalists et al. we’re killed or maimed by the Hamas attacks.

I think neither side here has clear title to the high road.

I dislike Israel’s hit-you-back-first policies. But I dislike Hamas’s “civilians are good targets” performance more.

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3 points,Netanyahu's govt. is made up of far right zealots hell bent on more illegal settlements and a hatred of Arabs that rivals Hama's hatred of Jews,2 I believe the state of Israel was formed to as a consolation to Jews to wash Western guilt for not making much effort to thwart the Holocaust and in establishing a Jewish state someone had to lose(Palestinians),3 Don't see much media coverage of Ukraine since this sick/sad episode occurred (enhancing my feelings that the media is a whore for the latest misery).

I'm hoping that Iran does not like the timing for Hezbollah to get involved(they are bromancing w/Russia and quietly building up near weapons grade uranium inching perilously close to a bomb),if not Hezbollah raining ordinance from the north creating two fronts for Israel to contend with makes escalation possible. Anything coming from Syria gets into a vis a vis Israel/Iran deal,US Air Force and carrier aircraft may aid Israel in any escalation and lets not dismiss agressive Russian Air Force still in Syria acting up as well. This thing has the potential to spiral when video of massive sufferring in Gaza gets put up on the net,there is virtually no way Israel can limit collateral damage in Gaza,it's way to populated and tight for precision and Hamas wants a bloodbath to broadcast to fuel sympathizers to rise up,this is go or blow time for Hamas existence as a player,their last card to play.

The operation in detail for those who want it, expect a lot of biased coverage, just like in Ukraine, though some try to stick to the facts and events. I don't think gaining control of Gaza will take very long and holdouts in building will have the buildings leveled and high causality urban warfare will be avoided. They want it over fast and not to fester in the media for weeks while tying down ground forces that could be needed elsewhere, especially if they attack Iran over this.


14 Oct: Israeli Special Forces TRAP A Huge Group Of Hamas Members & TAKE Dozens of Them CAPTIVE!

CCGNZ said:

3 Don't see much media coverage of Ukraine since this sick/sad episode occurred (enhancing my feelings that the media is a whore for the latest misery).

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Ukraine has been doing quite well in the absence of news coverage and killing trainloads of Russians daily while destroying plenty of their equipment. Expect coverage to shift back to Ukraine as the fighting in Gaza subsides and if there is major movement in Ukraine. The Russians are desperately throwing men and equipment away in repeated diversionary attacks hoping to take heat off the south where things are not going well for the Russians. Even though it is a Ukrainian offensive it is the Russians who are dying at a far higher rate than the Ukrainians who are making methodical progress using tactics and modern equipment. Mine defense is about all the Russians really have between them and the Ukrainians and the Ukrainians have penetrated most of the defenses in the south on a wide front and are past most of the minefields. Meanwhile untrained Russian troops haven't been rotated out of the line since they were put there, and many are in a catatonic state of battle fatigue.

CCGNZ said:

(enhancing my feelings that the media is a whore for the latest misery).

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Now there’s a fact most should be able to not deny.

Regardless of where on the spectrum Israel’s current leader resides, the criticism, especially the unfair, would be similar. As has been evident over the past several decades. The fact they're dealing like most western nations with a shift to the right results in a skewed narrative that could now even lead to a silly conclusion such as 'Hamas saved Israel from fascism'. 56% of Israelis want Netanyahu to quit ’after this crisis’ and a much large percentage blames him and his government. Coincidentally almost the same % of Palestinians that would not vote Hamas again (in the hypothetical situation they'd allow elections). Yet that makes Palestinians a victim of their leadership, and Israel a 'fascist state'. Brought to you from the upside down where Ukrainians are nazis and US is trolling China with spy balloons and of course "both sides bad".

Netanyahu is a problem, especially for many Israelis, he's not the problem, not the cause (in the same way Trump is a product of the real problems).

Now if Russia terrorizes Poland, with its far right government and religious conservatives opposing liberty, democracy and equality... Somehow the solidarity shared by people on the left in other western nations isn't extended to Israelis.

What do you call people who migrate or flee to the land where previous generations had settlements? Depends on the people and destination. In most cases it's immigrant or refugees, in one specific case it's colonists & occupiers, even their kids and grandkids.

Israel is their final stronghold against this discrepancy they cannot afford to accept again. The only place in the world where people don't repeat the same thing that could be heard in across the globe when the nazis started implementing apartheid for jews: "they kinda brought it upon themselves, surely they must have done something to deserve it". The west could give up Afghanistan, Israel doesn't have that luxury to leave the mess in Far-away-istan, it's their fascist neighbors that cannot be negotiated with and which they are forced to deal with, with force.

Last (rather discuss this topic in a more reasonable and rational fashion) but not least, targetting civilians isn’t the same as collateral damage. There’s good reasons civilized nations consider it a war crime for soldiers to hide in civilian buildings, whether it’s a home or hospital. Life ain’t disney, it‘s a bitch and then you die. That’s why I get high, and some of you are f.o.s.