Having problems in my grow. Help PLZ

FamMan

FamMan

Well-Known Member
waktoo said:
Are you able to wait a day or two?

This is going to take some explaining, and some digging through my library for literature that supports the explanation.

I have to leave the house soon, and will be gone most of the day.
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Unfortunately I can not because they go on vacation soon and my garden is way behind schedule. I have tons of soil so if you have a better option I can go that route as well. But I def would love to here your reasoning. No rush. Thanx!
 
W

waktoo

Well-Known Member
FamMan said:
Unfortunately I can not because they go on vacation soon and my garden is way behind schedule. I have tons of soil so if you have a better option I can go that route as well. But I def would love to here your reasoning. No rush. Thanx!
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Definately get your water tested now, as I suspect that's probably the issue.

I'll hit you up later about testing methods/options.
 
W

waktoo

Well-Known Member
FamMan said:
Unfortunately I can not because they go on vacation soon and my garden is way behind schedule. I have tons of soil so if you have a better option I can go that route as well. But I def would love to here your reasoning. No rush. Thanx!
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You might want to give this a listen. Or two. Or three...

www.kisorganics.com

Episode 61: Logan Labs Soil Tests & Potting Soils Explained with Bill McKibben

This week’s podcast relates to soil testing. A lot of growers and cannabis consultants use soil tests to make fertility decisions for this crop. What I learned in the last two weeks really changed the way I view these tests and my conversation with our next guest will hopefully explain in better...
www.kisorganics.com www.kisorganics.com
 
FamMan

FamMan

Well-Known Member
waktoo said:
You might want to give this a listen. Or two. Or three...

www.kisorganics.com

Episode 61: Logan Labs Soil Tests & Potting Soils Explained with Bill McKibben

This week’s podcast relates to soil testing. A lot of growers and cannabis consultants use soil tests to make fertility decisions for this crop. What I learned in the last two weeks really changed the way I view these tests and my conversation with our next guest will hopefully explain in better...
www.kisorganics.com www.kisorganics.com
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Turning it on now. Thank u big time!
 
Y

youraveragehorticulturist

Well-Known Member
I think you need more EWC and Compost.

In your pics, except for the trouble spot, your plant's leaves are very deep green. Like they have plenty of foods. An you mentioned top dresses, teas and feedings. So I would rule out deficiencies, or not having enough nutrients and focus on what is preventing your nutes from being used by the plant. Like what is causing the lock-out.

Maybe its your water or your food. But your last grow went OK with the same water and food. Somebody talked about pH, but in organic style your microbes are supposed to keep your pH adjusted.

You mentioned leaving your pots idle between runs, and the soil going dry without plants and without more compost. In my opinion this would definitely mess up your microbes. And that could lead to your top dresses, feeds and teas not breaking down or being absorbed properly. Which could leave you with "hot", dry soil, with a wonky pH, causing al kinds of different small problems.

Try getting some more microbes into your pots. See if they can balance things out for you. Use a skewer to poke some holes in the soil in your pots. Create some new channels for water to get to all parts of the soil and rootball. Top dress with 4-6 cups of compost and water that stuff in!
 
lakesidegrower

lakesidegrower

Well-Known Member
This looks a lot like issues I have been experiencing, nearly identical living soil setup as you in 20 gals. Totally agree with what others have already said about water source and moisture levels. My water is 240ppm, lots of CaO3, I'm positive it is what has been screwing me. I monitored soil pH , switched from my well water to a town water source with way less available Ca and began to pH my water, that's when I started to notice an improvement. The excess Ca accumulates in the soil and has an antagonistic effect on Mg and K, it also caused my soil pH to be between 7.2 and 7.5 pH. This higher pH range didn't exactly 'lock' anything out but rather made them less available so I was seeing several different def signs in micros that were driving me nuts.

By watering with 'softer' water and pHing to 5.8, my soil was able to swing back to an average of 6.8 and started seeing improvement. I also am learning the ways of water-craft lol I got the idea in my head that dry cycles were a good idea, but that was dumb, convinced it only made things worse - you can do it with organics, but not living soil. I have Blumats so might set em up again for the next run.

The proof will be in my next run - plan to try RO water, see how it goes. But my early stages were very similar to yours, also very green leaves with clawing. I should also note that things are fantastic all through veg and then very shortly after flip is when I start seeing K and Mg defs etc and it starts downhill.
 
FamMan

FamMan

Well-Known Member
lakesidegrower said:
This looks a lot like issues I have been experiencing, nearly identical living soil setup as you in 20 gals. Totally agree with what others have already said about water source and moisture levels. My water is 240ppm, lots of CaO3, I'm positive it is what has been screwing me. I monitored soil pH , switched from my well water to a town water source with way less available Ca and began to pH my water, that's when I started to notice an improvement. The excess Ca accumulates in the soil and has an antagonistic effect on Mg and K, it also caused my soil pH to be between 7.2 and 7.5 pH. This higher pH range didn't exactly 'lock' anything out but rather made them less available so I was seeing several different def signs in micros that were driving me nuts.

By watering with 'softer' water and pHing to 5.8, my soil was able to swing back to an average of 6.8 and started seeing improvement. I also am learning the ways of water-craft lol I got the idea in my head that dry cycles were a good idea, but that was dumb, convinced it only made things worse - you can do it with organics, but not living soil. I have Blumats so might set em up again for the next run.

The proof will be in my next run - plan to try RO water, see how it goes. But my early stages were very similar to yours, also very green leaves with clawing. I should also note that things are fantastic all through veg and then very shortly after flip is when I start seeing K and Mg defs etc and it starts downhill.
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Thank you for your reply. What do you use PH your water? I plan on getting a water test asap.
 
FamMan

FamMan

Well-Known Member
FamMan said:
Turning it on now. Thank u big time!
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So I listened to the episode. Only once but I plan to again lol. I appreciate you pointing me in that direction. So from what I gather with our 'modified soiless mixes' the original method of soil testing can be skewed. The saturated paste test gives us a better idea although not exact. I still feel like the soil test will give me data that will be helpful. On another note, I have been giving the girls just water and they seem to look better. Some are praying and generally look happier. However I do still see deficiencies. Just a guess here but if it was the water this whole time I shouldn't see signs of happy plants right? Thanx again.
 
FamMan

FamMan

Well-Known Member
W

waktoo

Well-Known Member
FamMan said:
So I listened to the episode. Only once but I plan to again lol. I appreciate you pointing me in that direction. So from what I gather with our 'modified soiless mixes' the original method of soil testing can be skewed. The saturated paste test gives us a better idea although not exact. I still feel like the soil test will give me data that will be helpful. On another note, I have been giving the girls just water and they seem to look better. Some are praying and generally look happier. However I do still see deficiencies. Just a guess here but if it was the water this whole time I shouldn't see signs of happy plants right? Thanx again.
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Just water? What else have you been adding to it up til this point?

I'd like to see what the water analysis says. It this point I can only speculate...

Funky leaf growth at the top of the plant is usually indicative of "immobile" nutrient disorders, amongst those being micronutrient/trace elements.

When soil pH gets too high, micronutrients/trace elements become less available.

I'm speculating that in those 20 gallons pots on their second round of use, bicarbonates carried in your irrigation water have built up to a point where the pH of the soil solution isn't allowing for root absorption of trace elements, particularly Fe, Cu, Mn, and/or Zn.

Citric acid is a great option for neutralizing alkalinity in your irrigation water. It gives you the acid you need without adding extra "nutes" like phosphates or sulfates. When mixed with water, it produces three protons and citrate, which serves as a chelator for short periods of time. It's readily degraded by soil microbes, which utilize it as a carbon source. It's also non-caustic, but a little tricky to use. I'll walk you through a process later if you decide to go that route.

Let's see what's in your water first.

I'll send you a PM about those soil tests later.
 
lakesidegrower

lakesidegrower

Well-Known Member
FamMan said:
Thank you for your reply. What do you use PH your water? I plan on getting a water test asap.
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Citric acid - a 1/4 tsp or so is usually all I need, really simple and clean

A water test is in my future as well, but I’m pretty sure it’s only going to confirm that I would be better off with another water source, and I’ve already made that change. Still, I wanna know… lol

waktoo said:
Just water? What else have you been adding to it up til this point?

I'd like to see what the water analysis says. It this point I can only speculate...

Funky leaf growth at the top of the plant is usually indicative of "immobile" nutrient disorders, amongst those being micronutrient/trace elements.

When soil pH gets too high, micronutrients/trace elements become less available.

I'm speculating that in those 20 gallons pots on their second round of use, bicarbonates carried in your irrigation water have built up to a point where the pH of the soil solution isn't allowing for root absorption of trace elements, particularly Fe, Cu, Mn, and/or Zn.

Citric acid is a great option for neutralizing alkalinity in your irrigation water. It gives you the acid you need without adding extra "nutes" like phosphates or sulfates. When mixed with water, it produces three protons and citrate, which serves as a chelator for short periods of time. It's readily degraded by soil microbes, which utilize it as a carbon source. It's also non-caustic, but a little tricky to use. I'll walk you through a process later if you decide to go that route.

Let's see what's in your water first.

I'll send you a PM about those soil tests later.
Click to expand...
nice simple explanation - do you figure a flush might be wise to leach the excess bicarbonate?
 
W

waktoo

Well-Known Member
lakesidegrower said:
nice simple explanation - do you figure a flush might be wise to leach the excess bicarbonate?
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My apologies. My use of the words "built up" for describing bicarbonates in the soil was contextually inappropriate. They do no "accumulate" in soil in the classic sense that one might attribute to the over-application of soluble chemical fertilizers, until a certain soil solution pH threshold is crossed. By that time, nutrient availability in the soil has been severely compromised, and it's very difficult to come back from. It's much, much easier to raise soil acidity than it is to lower it. This has more to do with the soil solid phase chemistry (CEC), the "reserve acidity" that it carries, how it interacts with the soil solution, and how the chemistry of the irrigation water factors into the whole mess. It's pretty complicated chemistry, which I will admit that I do not fully understand at this point in time.

Bicarbonates in irrigation water react directly with hydrogen ions (soil acidity) in the soil solution, the net result of that chemical reaction being the production of water, and CO2.

There's not bicarbonate to leach. It needs to be neutralized prior to being added to the soil.

Sometimes I'm not the best at explaining things clearly so that others are able to understand the points I try to convey. This might help...




Also, I see a lot of people making determinations relevant to variables on water reports like hardness and alkalinity as "calcium carbonate". A lot of times, the value that folks assign to these variables doesn't mean what they think it means. The attached PDF clears up a lot of the confusion related to accurately defining some of these variables. I would encourage all who are dealing with poor quality irrigation water, or considering getting their water tested, to read it.

You should get your water tested before going the RO route. If bicarbonates are the only problematic soluble ion in your irrigation water, they're easy enough to deal with.

I've found, through experimentation, that using straight up RO can lead to the same problems related to soil pH that one is trying to avoid by removing the bicarbonates in the first place. It really does depend upon how much acidity (pH) the water is carrying to begin with.
 

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FamMan

FamMan

Well-Known Member
waktoo said:
My apologies. My use of the words "built up" for describing bicarbonates in the soil was contextually inappropriate. They do no "accumulate" in soil in the classic sense that one might attribute to the over-application of soluble chemical fertilizers, until a certain soil solution pH threshold is crossed. By that time, nutrient availability in the soil has been severely compromised, and it's very difficult to come back from. It's much, much easier to raise soil acidity than it is to lower it. This has more to do with the soil solid phase chemistry (CEC), the "reserve acidity" that it carries, how it interacts with the soil solution, and how the chemistry of the irrigation water factors into the whole mess. It's pretty complicated chemistry, which I will admit that I do not fully understand at this point in time.

Bicarbonates in irrigation water react directly with hydrogen ions (soil acidity) in the soil solution, the net result of that chemical reaction being the production of water, and CO2.

There's not bicarbonate to leach. It needs to be neutralized prior to being added to the soil.

Sometimes I'm not the best at explaining things clearly so that others are able to understand the points I try to convey. This might help...




Also, I see a lot of people making determinations relevant to variables on water reports like hardness and alkalinity as "calcium carbonate". A lot of times, the value that folks assign to these variables doesn't mean what they think it means. The attached PDF clears up a lot of the confusion related to accurately defining some of these variables. I would encourage all who are dealing with poor quality irrigation water, or considering getting their water tested, to read it.

You should get your water tested before going the RO route. If bicarbonates are the only problematic soluble ion in your irrigation water, they're easy enough to deal with.

I've found, through experimentation, that using straight up RO can lead to the same problems related to soil pH that one is trying to avoid by removing the bicarbonates in the first place. It really does depend upon how much acidity (pH) the water is carrying to begin with.
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I think you do a great job explaining all this! Will respond later.
 
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