Hear Ye- Hear Ye LED Tubes + HH Spray 2.0 + BrandX Seeds

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
BS Yeah, alas, they are privately (socially) funded. Hopefully it works out for them


DJThanks, and yes it is the quality of products grown in Hawaii that inspired me when I came across LR locally, AND, it is CHEAP. As you read, it can be mixed in soil/less mediums as well

As to starting seedlings, since I grow in hydro, I don't want much of a starter medium. I saw a seed starter kit in Big Lots for $4.50. It includes 2 trays- the first little egg type carton pockets with drain hole, the second to capture the runoff + a humidity dome. I didn't count, but probably good for 2 dzn seedlings. Seems perfect for a mix of perlite + vermiculite, maybe pulverize some lava rock too

Since moving the o/o valve to the end of the manifolds in each tent, growth has picked up again. Yeah:bigjoint:

I moved Sophia to center position (her leafs mostly flat or reaching up to the lights now. I fear her companion G13 may also be a female as the nodal growth has increased considerably. That would be a shame as BrandX may be on a 4+ year hiatus. He is contemplating joining the military. Being a vet I tried to talk him out of it, suggesting employment within the community.



I was doing some reading on agriculture on the pacific islands and high wind territories this week and thought of you. They use lava rock, and other rocks, beneficially for moisture and temperature control.
Their cultures (800-1200AD) figured out that in high regions, dark rocks should be used as they absorb more heat, and keep the roots at a more constant temperature than light rocks, during the dark periods.
The lava rock is what they would start their seedlings in, and transplant them out in fields.

Not many people mess with rocks, I know you're the type that would appreciate some historical backing of your hypothesis.
 

djwimbo

Well-Known Member
That would be a shame as BrandX may be on a 4+ year hiatus. He is contemplating joining the military. Being a vet I tried to talk him out of it, suggesting employment within the community.
That's a bummer.

Those who feel the calling are a special breed. 12 years ago I might have made that decision, but I was too young at the time. Now my eyes are open, and I'm glad I didn't. None of my friends came back the same. I didn't lose anybody I was close to, but the person I knew(before service) didn't come back.
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
^^^My cousin is being deployed tomorrow to Afghanistan. I spent the whole day with him yesterday. Dropped him off at the base last night in time for taps. He will be back around Easter. He is a corporal in the infantry. I forget what company / division. I've got it written down.
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
Sort of policing and patrols. Acting as backup or big brother for local police and military. My cousin expects it to be very boring

. You know when you were a little kid and you get your ass kicked and you go get your older brother to kick some ass.. Its sort of like that.

There's u.s. Military stationed all over the world. Even cool places like Bhali and Australia.
 

rippn13

Well-Known Member
Hey Pet... sorry I am late for the show. Been a heck of a summer. Good to see you still pushing things. Your knowledge amazes me. I have cyber-stalked you today and saw you an another site talking about the magnets. You have peaked my curiosity and I am going to do some more research. My girls can always use some more energy.

Great choice in strains. The G13 and the Bubble Gum both have very special places in my heart.

Now to make a pot of tea, spark up, and dive into your thread. Thanks again for the great reads.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Rippin13 welcome back. The fun is about to begin

HOT5

Yesterday I added a Wave Point Coral Wave to the back side, partially reflecting off the wall. Once girls hit mid-flower I will move it closer to the middle, and possibly add a second CW. Also added a Zoomed Florosun, so total watts now 324. That will have a major impact on growth, however, the 4 bulbs (216w) already has a much bigger canopy, but only a tad taller than the led tent, which is doing quite well, too

LED After taking this morning's pic, I replaced the 22w NW tube with 18w WW.

One issue I needed to resolve was angle of led tube face. It dawned on me how to quickly angle the fixture, thus aiming all the WW directly at the plants. Plants were not getting anywhere near full benefit of the ~80 tube watts. That adjustment will pay big dividends. Need to aim the second fixture also.


Sigh, partner has not ordered the 2 x 2 @ 60w panels yet.

Trying to keep rez ppms < 500, but plants are consuming 0.5-1.0 gallons of water per day due to evaporation


LED Group.jpg

HOT5 Group.jpgHOT5 Close Up WHx.jpg
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
I'm doing 2 t5 8 and 6 bulb. Not the arrangement of bulbs I'd like. 6500k, 5400k, red suns, fijis, ati aqua blue special. I decided not to use any coral waves this time. Just flipped the light the other day. My hypothesis is that coral waves induce quite a bit of stretching due tobso much IR. Last time some branches, buds were 2-5 inches apart. So far I'm seeing very close nodes. Same strains too. Not much happens in the first few days of flower anyway.

For veg I've notice in the 6 bulb. Having 1 ati aqb special, 2 6500k and 3 5400k. Plants grew fast but nodes stayed closer. On the 8 bulb. 2 fiij , 2 6500k, 4 5400k. They stretched more, grew a little slower, but both arrangements produced very broad leaves .

I like being able to swap the spectrum when ever and the coverage like a light mover with hid. I just wish the bulbs would last longer and have more intensity for larger plants. My plants are pretty tall.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Below is response to a question i asked over on IC. It seems to validate my hypothesis regarding broad light spectrums, and possibly why high lumens per SINGLE watt is not THAT important. Anybody with a clue, please feel free to chime in. Oh, there are several color charts on IC that did not transfer

TranceAddictT7: I apologize for the great delay. I am on a schedule that rarely allows any free time so please bear with me as I update this thread.
I'm glad this information was useful to those that showed their appreciation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetFlora View Post
So, at the end of the day is the 64,000 question

What is the optimum amount of watts of each corresponding light spectrum needed to optimize chlorophyll A & B production?

Don't quote me, but I would imagine the broader the spectrum of light the greater the easier it will be to provide the full range of wavelengths that a plant can use. In order to know which ones are absorbed most effectively one would have to isolate the chloroplast pigments from a specific strain and run them through a spectrophotmeter to measure the absorbance at different wavelengths. I tend to imagine that the results would vary slightly by strain.

It would actually be interesting to know which wavelengths cannabis plants (generally) absorb light at the most efficiently. We can then look at those light bulb boxes and see if they really are the best fit for our plants or not.

While we're on the topic here is an interesting article on how plants cope with "too much light" to avoid photodamage. Some of the things discussed here are mentioned. http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/125/1/29 .



Back to the discussion at hand...

We now know that light is the energy behind creating ATP and NADPH and that there are two photosystems in the thylakoid membranes of chloroplasts responsible for utilizing this energy. Let us now break down linear electron flow into steps to be able to see what happens to that excited electron after a photon of light strikes a pigment molecule at a light harvesting complex of PS II.

1. As the electron returns back to its ground state, an electron in a nearby pigment molecule is simultaneously raised to an excited state. This process continues as the energy is "bounced" around until it reaches the P680 pair of chlorophyll a molecules in the PS II reaction-center complex. At this point, it excites an electron within the complex to a higher energy state.

2. The electron is then transferred from the excited P680 to the primary electron acceptor. We refer to the P680 as P680+, attributing a "+" sign to indicate the transferred negatively charged electron.

3. Next, an enzyme catalyzes (speeds up) the splitting of a water molecule into two electrons, two hydrogen ions (H+), and an oxygen atom. The electrons replace the ones that were transferred or lost to the primary electron acceptor from the two P680+ pairs. Due to the nature of the P680+ molecule, this replacement of electrons happens extremely quickly. (P680+ is one of the strongest biological oxidizing agents known to date.) The remaining H+ ions from water are released into the thylakoid space. The oxygen atom combines with a second oxygen atom generated by the splitting of another water molecule, forming oxygen in its diatomic state (O2). Now you know exactly how and where our beloved oxygen that plants produce comes from and why they depend on water.

4. Every transferred electron passes from the primary electron acceptor of PS II to PS I via an electron transport chain. The electron transport chain between PS II and PS I contains: the electron carrier known as plastiquinone (Pq), a cytochrome complex, and a protein called plastocyanin (Pc).

5. The fall of electrons to a lower energy level is what provides energy for the synthesis of ATP. As the electrons pass through the cytochrome complex, H+ ions are pumped into the thylakoid lumen, creating a proton gradient that is used in chemiosmosis. Remember that the H+ ion is a proton, and chemiosmosis is the diffusion of ions across a selectively permeable membrane.

6. As the light energy is transferred via the light harvesting complex pigments to the PSI reaction-center complex, an electron from each of the P700 pair of chlorophyll a molecules becomes excited. The photoexcited electron is again transferred in a similar manner as before to PS I's primary electron acceptor, making the two molecules P700+. Each P700+ is now without an electron and would certainly like to get it back. The electrons that will replace the ones it passed on to its primary electron acceptor will again be passed on from PS II as this cycle repeats itself.

7. The photoexcited electrons with the primary electron acceptor of PS I are passed in a series of redox reactions down a second electron transport chain through the protein ferredoxin (Fd). This chain does not produce a proton gradient and therefore does not produce ATP.

8. Finally, the enzyme NADP+ reductase catalyzes the transfer of electrons from Fd to NADP+. Two electrons are used to reduce NADP+ back to NADPH. This restored molecule has a higher energy state than water and can provide the electrons necessary for the reactions of the Calvin cycle. In essence, the whole scheme is one big recycling system!

Here is a diagram to help demonstrate the steps above:
This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 1050x580.



Here is a picture with a proton "pump" included so you can get an idea on how it functions:
This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 1278x751.



And to help you understand chemiosmosis better keep in mind that things will naturally go from higher concentrations to lower concentrations. This isn't the only place where H+ flows down a gradient to generate energy. Many different cells use this phenomenon in many places to synthesize ATP. Read this short and easy to comprehend article about the types of diffusion that exist: http://antranik.org/movement-of-subs...ell-membranes/

The next post will briefly describe cyclic electron flow which is an alternative way that light is used in these reactions. I will then break down the Calvin cycle. Lastly, we will look at the basics of C3, C4, and CAM plants, how they differ and why it matters. My goal is for the people who read this to have a basic and proper understanding of plants and (hopefully) be able to obtain a greater appreciation for them. Please stay tuned, as always. Thanks
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
What is the optimum amount of watts of each corresponding light spectrum needed to optimize chlorophyll A & B production?
Don't quote me, but I would imagine the broader the spectrum of light the greater the easier it will be to provide the full range of wavelengths that a plant can use. In order to know which ones are absorbed most effectively one would have to isolate the chloroplast pigments from a specific strain and run them through a spectrophotmeter to measure the absorbance at different wavelengths. I tend to imagine that the results would vary slightly by strain.
Don't we already know that light quality can change the pigment concentrations of plants? I.e. why do plants grown under Red:Blue LED's have dark, forest green colored leaves? Aren't their leaves thicker also? Wouldn't the experiment show vastly different results even with clones of the same plant that were grown under different qualities of light? I also wonder if a leaf's absorption efficiencies change over its lifetime. Do the pigments become less adept at absorbing light? Do pigment concentrations change? Does the leaf start out wanting to "eat" Red:Blue light and end up feeding off Green/Yellow/Amber? Does broadband coverage increase a leaf's -or a pigment's- lifespan in anyway?

Too many freaking questions. This reminds me of something that was said in the V-C-F light measuring thread, it's less the science and more observable plant morphology.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
BS, well said!

Tubes v Panels

First, Asia is calling them panels.

Although they are similar in execution (converting energy to light), they are quite simplistic compared to what mj light companies are making. Many of you know I am forming a partnership to retrofit panels in medical and dental offices.

In searching, wattage ranges from 32w-70w per 2 x 2.

Since angling the 2 fixtures I am getting much better coverage DOH, but certainly no where near uniform over 2 x 4. Hard to imagine I didn't resolve this last grow, let alone up until now :wall: I probably left a good ounce unaccounted for

The 35w (link below) is only 3watts more than my 4 tubes, but the coverage of those watts is almost homogenous over the entire 2 x 4 space, which I intuit pays bigger dividends. So 1 @ 70w could be super sweet. FYI, the panels can be ordered with an optional hanging system, simply wrap the hanging wire over the top of the tent frame and raise as needed. SWEET!:bigjoint:

Imagine 4 @ 0.25w, each engine spread only far enough from one another for the resultant light to remain uniform (~ COB), will take up ~ 4xs the footprint of a one watt engine

I'll be posting new pics in a few...


http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Super-Slim-35W-600x600-led-panel-ceiling-lights-warm-white-5pcs-lot-2650-lm-60x60-cm/1059723954.html
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Is that remote phosphor? Why is the phosphor layer so huge?

Have you heard of these guys?
http://www.yujiintl.com/high-cri-led-lighting
They have some stuff on Alibaba that I saw (high CRI LED tubes). I think they make LED lights in a lot of different formats/footprints and all seem to have high CRI (high R9 value as well) options. Here's some specs on their 3000k:
http://www.yujiintl.com/lighting/ww
As you can see they use a Violet (near UV) pump instead of Royal Blue like most White LED's we've seen. There's a few companies doing this (Soraa, Verbatim, and of course Yuji who we're already discussing) and they all seem to be aiming for >90CRI with high R9 values.

I can't really say what all the ~410nm light will do to plants, but the rest of the spectral analysis looks, needless to say, awesome. BUT if you're just retrofitting a dental office the high R9 might actually be greatly appreciated.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
BS, thanks for the link

1. Their tubes are no better than what I am using
2. They do not offer 2 x 2 panels

Update

I have only bumped nutes until today, but due to HOT5 leafs still being on the pale sides, I decided to dump, clean and provide fresh nutes ~ 450ppm to both rezes

HOT5

After taking these pics, I added another ZooMed Florosun and another Coral Wave, so full compliment of 8 bulbs
LED tent seems to have the color edge, especially now that the plants are getting all the tubes can give. See comparison of 2 biggest girls.

First 3 are HOT5


IMG_1818.jpgIMG_1821.jpgIMG_1822.jpg

IMG_1824.jpgIMG_1825.jpg
 

Chronikool

Well-Known Member
Is that remote phosphor? Why is the phosphor layer so huge?
I'm guessing it is a remote phosphor to create that 'uniform' result. Wonder what is powering it? (diodes)...another omission from the listing. Pretty certain it isnt a COB right across the face. Im sure Pet or his partner has found out in their research though.... :)
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Truth is, I am not that concerned. You guys know LEDs is moving so fast our collective heads are spinning. For now, IMHO, best to get even distribution of good lumens over the entire canopy. As you know I put my money where my mind is. Keep in mind I did not have the 4 led tubes until 15 days into flower last grow. The plants are loving them early on

This ~ 112 w led grow is neck and neck with my ~ 324w HOT5 tent in every way, but I added 2 more HOT5 bulbs yesterday, so now 432w. Too bad I won't have the 2 @ 2 x2 panels for a few weeks to level the wattage playing field a bit.

I am going to get a 12" fixture and hang a 10.0 reptile UVB bulb between the 8 tubes and run it from 11-3 during flower
:bigjoint:
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
http://beijingyuji.en.alibaba.com/product/1052904972-213442539/19W_LED_Tube_Light_High_CRI_up_to_98_Ra.html

v4th.jpg

No, we can't say either is "better" for growing -I can't even tell if the tubes are using a Violet pump like some of their other products- but like I mentioned they are ~95CRI with a ~95 R9 value. The Red coverage is better than an average ~80CRI WW by a fair margin.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-Arrival-18W-30x30-led-panel-ceiling-lights-72-lm-w-Warm-White-panel-led-AC85/927935_987095315.html
I realize this listing isn't the same product as your 2x2's, but scroll down and take a look at the spectral analysis graph of their >80CRI 2949k phosphor blend. I'm guessing it's the same as or similar to what they used on your panels (I'm aware of the lm/W discrepancy). Just under the graph they were kind enough to include the R values and the R9 is 27. The Red peak is probably around 600nm with pretty low 660nm coverage.

So what's better? Your guess is as good as mine. I'd be interested to do some research on phosphor efficiency losses per excitation vs emission wavelength. That's something I've yet to do and it just might tip the scales even further towards an Area51/Apache Tech/Astir/Philips L-Prize approach: White+Red. But, as I stand right now, I'm really liking the almost ruler flat incline these high CRI Warm White's have from ~430nm to ~630nm.


I know, I know, you don't care. This just seems like a good placeholder for my rambling given the discussion. >.< Hope you don't mind.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
BS Ramble on. Nice enough tube, BUT,... did you notice 50 piece minimum?

The panel is only 18w, be great for side/below canopy lighting.

If I had the money, based on excellent RIU results with A51, or the Apache, I would pony up. But then again, what fun is that? :bigjoint:


http://beijingyuji.en.alibaba.com/product/1052904972-213442539/19W_LED_Tube_Light_High_CRI_up_to_98_Ra.html

View attachment 2823068

No, we can't say either is "better" for growing -I can't even tell if the tubes are using a Violet pump like some of their other products- but like I mentioned they are ~95CRI with a ~95 R9 value. The Red coverage is better than an average ~80CRI WW by a fair margin.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-Arrival-18W-30x30-led-panel-ceiling-lights-72-lm-w-Warm-White-panel-led-AC85/927935_987095315.html
I realize this listing isn't the same product as your 2x2's, but scroll down and take a look at the spectral analysis graph of their >80CRI 2949k phosphor blend. I'm guessing it's the same as or similar to what they used on your panels (I'm aware of the lm/W discrepancy). Just under the graph they were kind enough to include the R values and the R9 is 27. The Red peak is probably around 600nm with pretty low 660nm coverage.

So what's better? Your guess is as good as mine. I'd be interested to do some research on phosphor efficiency losses per excitation vs emission wavelength. That's something I've yet to do and it just might tip the scales even further towards an Area51/Apache Tech/Astir/Philips L-Prize approach: White+Red. But, as I stand right now, I'm really liking the almost ruler flat incline these high CRI Warm White's have from ~430nm to ~630nm.


I know, I know, you don't care. This just seems like a good placeholder for my rambling given the discussion. >.< Hope you don't mind.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
First pic is leaf trimmed from WHx, note how much greener it is than pics taken under the lights
Second pic is close up of Sophia's (G13 x) undergrowth
Third pic is close up of WH x (now named Melanie) under 432w (@54w each) of specialty aquarium HOT5 bulbs. As you can see, not a lot of difference. If anything, the LED is outperforming the HOT5

Possibly the tubes have lost much of their vigor


Leaf Size.jpgSophia Closeup.jpgMelanie Closeup.jpg
 
Top