HPS vs LED

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Drop That Sound

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I don't wanna argue :P. I just want LEDs, UVB t-5s, multiple mini 70w CMH/CDM, and also mini 70 watt HPS bulbs all in the same custom grow light fixture. All on separate circuits\timesrs, so I can create altering spectrums throughout the day. The smaller HIDs in a grid pattern of course (More like a COB fixture), so it spreads out the light perfectly down to every leaf, and without the hotspots a larger single bulb would create. You could drop it down a lot lower than normal, and even air cool it if needed by boxing it up like a hood with glass..

I want one fixture that does it all!
 

snakedope

Well-Known Member
here is something a book im reading says about HPS :
High-Pressure Sodium Lamps (HPS)
Efficacy: Good, 1.7 µmols/J (Nelson and Bugbee)
Spectrum: Excellent for growth, good for secondary metabolites and overall quality

Heres what the new philips 3100k says in the documentation from philips:
Excellent PPF (Photosynthetic Photon Flux) – 1.9 umols
• Higher growth light compared to 400W HPS lamps*


am i wrong or does this say that hps is 1.7umols and cmh 3100k from philips is 1.9 umols? or am i wrong af? lol
No sir you are not wrong, but you are comparing figures on paper, now let's move to the real world, a 315w cmh or a 400w hps, who makes more light ?
A 630cmh or a 600 hps, who makes more light ?
So you see, in real life the hps is a better bulb, better all around that is, if you want the ultimate spectrum profile (sun like) from your lights, go cmh, but know you are losing at least 30-40% of light output for the same watt you could have used in hps bulbs, the bulbs that are available to us that is.

I don't wanna argue :P. I just want LEDs, UVB t-5s, multiple mini 70w CMH/CDM, and also mini 70 watt HPS bulbs all in the same custom grow light fixture. All on separate circuits\timesrs, so I can create altering spectrums throughout the day. The smaller HIDs in a grid pattern of course (More like a COB fixture), so it spreads out the light perfectly down to every leaf, and without the hotspots a larger single bulb would create. You could drop it down a lot lower than normal, and even air cool it if needed by boxing it up like a hood with glass..

I want one fixture that does it all!
That sounds so cool, I always wonder the capabilities of a multi 70w hid bulbs array, like LEDs, should be killer.
 

smoke and coke

Well-Known Member
Of course that one fixture would have all individual replaceable components. If anything was to fail, it needs to be easily repairable. How much would a fixture like this cost?
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Of course that one fixture would have all individual replaceable components. If anything was to fail, it needs to be easily repairable. How much would a fixture like this cost?
A FUCKING FORTUNE, because you'll need a low frequency ballast for the HID, switchable between MH and HPS, plus ballast for the T5, plus drivers for the different LED circuits.
And it won't put out a huge amount of light for all that trouble.

Do yourself a favor and play with different lights in individual fixtures.
 
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Drop That Sound

Well-Known Member
Ya don't make one. I wanna be the only one with the fullest spectrum ultimate lighting fixture, with all the bells and whistles. A little bit of everything, easily replaceable too. For winter and summer use. I already have all that stuff laying around, except the mini digital 70w ballasts. Those things do cost a fortune, but still not as much as a $500+ LED for something equivalent. If you could wire rows of the mini HID bulbs (I see them all the time on sale at w4lmart in the clearance isle for $5-10, for brinks security brand, mh and hps!) into one driver (you can with bigger bulbs), you just saved the whole fortune.. No LED would outperform a grid array of a 50/50 mix of mini cdm/hps bulbs spaced evenly apart IMO! I haven't seen any use small bulbs at all for like 15 years on any forums (the made mini cool tubes with lantern glass), or put current LED fixtures up against a true grid array of mini HIDs, so no one can deny my claims that its the best! ;-)
 

snakedope

Well-Known Member
LEDs showed us that spreading light sources is always better then to have a single one, even with multi bulb hps grows, you can clearly see better results, as it's always better to spread a 600w to 2 400w if possible, or 2 x 250 instead of one 400

The source dividing factor in led panels implemented in HIDs, can lead to an amazing COB like hid panel.
I was thinking for a long time to make such a panel from CFLs, as 70-150w hid bulbs and ballasts are rare and pricey
If heat wasn't such a major problem where I live, I would def put 2 400w inside my 1x1m tent, better coverage, more light, just the damn heat...
 

Drop That Sound

Well-Known Member
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How about a 9 bulb grid fixture with just MH/HPS. 750w total.

5 of the 70w digi MH ballasts ($125), and 4 of the 100w HPS magnetic ones ($100).. Lets go ahead and add another $100 for the sockets, wiring, framing..

1690888604664.png
I see both kinda bulbs all day long for $5-15, so lets say another $100 to fill it up. I'm sure you could score bulk boxes of old ones on ebay or something, but some people still spend that on one large HPS or MH bulb anyway..

Ceramic HM bulbs would be better, and last longer. Pretty sure they make the retrofit 70w versions that would work with the same ballasts..

If you look hard enough you can score good deals on lower wattage HID tech!
 

snakedope

Well-Known Member
I agree, I don't even need to go to ebay in order to do it, I forgot all the hydro shops here have stocks of mag ballasts they sell for scrap metal
so if we do the math we get to about 70k lm from such an array, for 750w... That's not too bad to be honest, people will instantly think it's too low, cuz the 750de is easy 30-40% stronger, but the concept of having a "sun" above each location (like LEDs) can counter that negative low output.

This will require some real life testing, but sound promising, I think 9 x 100w, creating almost a 100k lm monster will be better overall, but we keep adding watts and heat, that's not so good..
That's why CFLs I think are better suited to this idea, even if you use high watt ones, you don't have to deal with the same amount of heat,
When I think about it, I rather run 1200w of cfl lights then 600w hps with 1000w + ac.
Thanks for the ideas, imma go explore now
 

Drop That Sound

Well-Known Member
I agree, I don't even need to go to ebay in order to do it, I forgot all the hydro shops here have stocks of mag ballasts they sell for scrap metal
so if we do the math we get to about 70k lm from such an array, for 750w... That's not too bad to be honest, people will instantly think it's too low, cuz the 750de is easy 30-40% stronger, but the concept of having a "sun" above each location (like LEDs) can counter that negative low output.

This will require some real life testing, but sound promising, I think 9 x 100w, creating almost a 100k lm monster will be better overall, but we keep adding watts and heat, that's not so good..
That's why CFLs I think are better suited to this idea, even if you use high watt ones, you don't have to deal with the same amount of heat,
When I think about it, I rather run 1200w of cfl lights then 600w hps with 1000w + ac.
Thanks for the ideas, imma go explore now
Yea a 750de is stronger (and way cheaper for sure, lol), but you can't drop it down over a well trained\scrogged canopy like you could with a lower wattage HID array. There are so many benefits over single bulb setups, or even multiple 400s which does kick ass btw.

Its not even fair to compare HID to LED, unless you count the HPS or MH light as being a grid fixture like above, with a nice even distribution of light, and getting it low enough where the highest output is without cooking the plants..

Sucks that the HID tech was basically ditched for LED these days IMO, and most want 5X what all that old stuff is worth. The new digital square wave ceramic MH tech from a few years back is nothing more than a marketing scam if you ask me. Nothing special at all really (you can get CDM bulbs for any ballast btw), and thats all we really got in the last decade as far as advancements. It's all about LED! :sleep:

Like I said, HID grow lighting tech would be way different these days if they didn't solely focus on chips as much, and the array idea above should only cost $1-200 at the most, especially if they continued to mass produce the components for those that still wanted it..



Why not use screw in LED bulbs instead of CFL (or a mixture at least) for a big 1200w fixture? They're cheap here in the US anyway. I get bulbs that are 15-16w, warm white or daylight spectrum, for just over a dollar a piece. .50 for the socket. Take the diffusers off and they work pretty darn good!
 

shishkaboy

Well-Known Member
I don't wanna argue :P. I just want LEDs, UVB t-5s, multiple mini 70w CMH/CDM, and also mini 70 watt HPS bulbs all in the same custom grow light fixture. All on separate circuits\timesrs, so I can create altering spectrums throughout the day. The smaller HIDs in a grid pattern of course (More like a COB fixture), so it spreads out the light perfectly down to every leaf, and without the hotspots a larger single bulb would create. You could drop it down a lot lower than normal, and even air cool it if needed by boxing it up like a hood with glass..

I want one fixture that does it all!
Would you settle for UVA and IR on separate channels?

with a modular design, so if one bar fails the rest still work?
 

Billy the Mountain

Well-Known Member
...
That's why CFLs I think are better suited to this idea, even if you use high watt ones, you don't have to deal with the same amount of heat,
When I think about it, I rather run 1200w of cfl lights then 600w hps with 1000w + ac.
Thanks for the ideas, imma go explore now
A watt is a watt is a watt

1 watt = 3.4 BTU of heat regardless of the source

A 100w LCD televison puts out the same amount of heat as a 100w HPS bulb
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
LEDs showed us that spreading light sources is always better then to have a single one, even with multi bulb hps grows, you can clearly see better results, as it's always better to spread a 600w to 2 400w if possible, or 2 x 250 instead of one 400

The source dividing factor in led panels implemented in HIDs, can lead to an amazing COB like hid panel.
I was thinking for a long time to make such a panel from CFLs, as 70-150w hid bulbs and ballasts are rare and pricey
If heat wasn't such a major problem where I live, I would def put 2 400w inside my 1x1m tent, better coverage, more light, just the damn heat...
The piece of information you're missing is that the small HID lamps are very inefficient and small HPS lamps have terrible spectrum.
 

Drop That Sound

Well-Known Member
Would you settle for UVA and IR on separate channels?

with a modular design, so if one bar fails the rest still work?
I'll maybe settle on some kind of mini UVA/B induction bulbs that last for years and years (unlike the t-5 fluoros that you get maybe 6 months to a year of good continuous output).. and are more suited for a grow environment than the small germicidal inductive lamp versions..

I can't really support new UV led tech at all, until there are dozens of good reviews claiming that the new UVB LED reptile basking bulbs don't cause any problems. Once everyone is using them, and their reptiles aren't suffering from lack of vitamin D or metabolic diseases, then maybe I'll consider using for gardening purposes too.


As far as IR light, HPS is king!
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I'll maybe settle on some kind of mini UVA/B induction bulbs that last for years and years (unlike the t-5 fluoros that you get maybe 6 months to a year of good continuous output).. and are more suited for a grow environment than the small germicidal inductive lamp versions..

I can't really support new UV led tech at all, until there are dozens of good reviews claiming that the new UVB LED reptile basking bulbs don't cause any problems. Once everyone is using them, and their reptiles aren't suffering from lack of vitamin D or metabolic diseases, then maybe I'll consider using for gardening purposes too.


As far as IR light, HPS is king!
IR light is overrated. There's a case to be made for a bit of it morning and night to "wake up" plants- but I remain unconvinced that it's anything but a bit of extra energy the plants can use for transpiration and that's easy to get with warmer temps.

As for UV, I think the best available tech is still florescent lights; I'm sure LED will get there eventually but it's not there yet.

HID lamps do not make enough UV to be useful; again, that's exactly how they're designed. LED lights make none at all and that's a good thing! You don't want any while you're in there anyway; that shit is bad for your eyes and your skin.

All in all, I got better results in terms of quality with CDM than HPS, and quality took another big jump with LED.
 

Drop That Sound

Well-Known Member
If you tried everything, show me a grid fixture with the more efficient 70-100w ceramic bulbs, which should be up even closer than you could put a new 315 bulb! I think the lack of efficiency would be made up for by how close you can put it. Not saying your wrong (especially about parts wearing out), or that it's not worthwhile at this point to make some ancient hid fixture, but I just wanna see it done! If they could use the same new ballasts to light up a grid of smaller more affordable CDM bulbs, I'll stop complaining ;)

Mag ballasts can at least be rewound again and again, and used for dang near eternity. The HID bulbs can be mostly recycled, and don't create a lot of pollution in the manufacturing process, unlike LED.. My only real gripe with LED is the cheap slave labor to make most of those diodes, and the fact that most of our electronic scrap ends up in third world countries for some reason, and then probably dumped in the ocean.. They don't last long enough to be sustainable in anyway that I can see for now. They sure don't heat my grow in the winter time, or save money.
 

Thundercat

Well-Known Member
If you tried everything, show me a grid fixture with the more efficient 70-100w ceramic bulbs, which should be up even closer than you could put a new 315 bulb! I think the lack of efficiency would be made up for by how close you can put it. Not saying your wrong (especially about parts wearing out), or that it's not worthwhile at this point to make some ancient hid fixture, but I just wanna see it done! If they could use the same new ballasts to light up a grid of smaller more affordable CDM bulbs, I'll stop complaining ;)

Mag ballasts can at least be rewound again and again, and used for dang near eternity. The HID bulbs can be mostly recycled, and don't create a lot of pollution in the manufacturing process, unlike LED.. My only real gripe with LED is the cheap slave labor to make most of those diodes, and the fact that most of our electronic scrap ends up in third world countries for some reason, and then probably dumped in the ocean.. They don't last long enough to be sustainable in anyway that I can see for now. They sure don't heat my grow in the winter time, or save money.
You can’t make up for efficiency by moving the lights closer, they produce significantly less light per watt used and you still need to get enough light. So using 9 100w hid bulbs would produce exponentially less light then one “900w” hps bulb. While you would get wider spread and lowering the lights puts that output closer to the canopy the lack of output/efficiency is still there so it’s costing you more money to produce less light.

Also HID bulbs are not cheap and easy to recycle because they contain mercury which is toxic and must be handled properly.

I would also bet money that the diodes are all built by specialized machines not slaves. And since everything else you own is made in china it’s silly to get hung up on that anyway. They also last for many many years before needing to be replaced making them much more sustainable so that’s another failed argument.

I’ve grown several places that needed heat in the winter so I get not wanting to run a heater. In which case maybe HPS is best for you. however there is no comparison otherwise. Any spectrum you want can be achieved with LED, they produce significantly higher light output at lower cost, and they last exponentially longer before replacement is required due to failure, not just degradation like HID bulbs.
 

snakedope

Well-Known Member
Why not use screw in LED bulbs instead of CFL (or a mixture at least) for a big 1200w fixture? They're cheap here in the US anyway. I get bulbs that are 15-16w, warm white or daylight spectrum, for just over a dollar a piece. .50 for the socket. Take the diffusers off and they work pretty darn good!
The screw in leds are LEDs... we want HIDs or cfl because of their light creating principles, aka sun like..

A watt is a watt is a watt

1 watt = 3.4 BTU of heat regardless of the source

A 100w LCD televison puts out the same amount of heat as a 100w HPS bulb
Yeah but the hps radiat it much more then the cfl, you can touch cfl, hps not, they work in different temps, cooling them is more efficient etc..

The piece of information you're missing is that the small HID lamps are very inefficient and small HPS lamps have terrible spectrum.
You are right, we don't want the highest output, we want to implement the ideas of led panels in HIDs and maybe not spend 2000w doing it...
And yes, spectrum in hps is reliant on intensity so it is a problem, but maybe some bulbs are better in that watt range then others who knows

Moving on; LED lights are available in a wide range of spectrum choices and that's why they're better for growing. LED lights get more efficient with more chips run softly, letting the grower lower the light fixture down closer to the canopy.

To your final point; HID lighting was an older and fully developed approach where the performance improvements had already been found and optimized. LED is just starting this curve.

Oh! And don't forget the need to regularly replace HID bulbs! AND ballasts, because they also slowly wear out.

Believe me, I tried everything, including 1000W square wave ballasts on CDM lamps. They just make a ton more heat and less light per Watt, period. There are tons of damn good reasons for the takeover of LED in horticultural lighting but if people insist on obsolete tech, no one is stopping them.
I agree, the cdm makes less light pew watt and much more heat, but people cling to their sun like spectrum... Hello ? People grew dank for years with lame hps spectrum... So what's the deal ??

Ttystikk, you are right in your approach, but I keep mentioning this because it's very important
There are 2 concepts, main strong source of light (HIDs) or many weak sources (LEDs)
That's the main difference between them, in leds you got the ability to shoot light in the same pre determined strength to any place in your canopy,
But you lost the sheer strength of a much higher rate per min main source/s

My claim is that you need a higher rate source in flowering regardless of the ppfd you already have, cuz a high rate source causes light stress, a thing science says they love best

You can’t make up for efficiency by moving the lights closer, they produce significantly less light per watt used and you still need to get enough light. So using 9 100w hid bulbs would produce exponentially less light then one “900w” hps bulb. While you would get wider spread and lowering the lights puts that output closer to the canopy the lack of output/efficiency is still there so it’s costing you more money to produce less light.
Lack of output is there yes but it's not so low to begin with, a 70k or a 100k lm in a 1x1 should be enough with that kind of spread,
And it's not costing you money because everyone knows the edges always suffer in hid grows, no matter the size of the space, in this configuration you might be able to get same results like the one plant under your center point, in all of them...
 

Drop That Sound

Well-Known Member

The future of LED tech apparently is harvesting animal products to make more efficient diodes. Not sure how thats gonna work out. Maybe for the better? We already killed like 50% of the species in just the last 40 years alone.. Something about it just doesn't sit right with me.. Cool though!
 
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