Impossible! The deficit is falling as well as unemployment Obama wrecking economy

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
There it is, now we're getting somewhere.....The Congress is charged with maintaining the value, which means responsible spending on their part, they have pawned this duty off on the Fed so that they may be irresponsible and claim ignorance of the system because it's too complicated and that's the Feds job....fed and congress get to play the blame game with each other when shit goes bad.....all the while the Fed gets to play its "private entity" card when Congress really wants a full audit........like a teenager with a credit card trying to explain the huge balance......

edit: hey tokeprep I am agreeing with you, it's basically Congress' fault, but it's really ours for being ignorant and letting them do it.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
I gave an explanation and anyone is welcome to criticize it. The point is that banks don't just create money they can do as they please with. The multiplier arises from additional deposits and additional borrowing; the fact that
ask yourself this. "Where does the interest used to pay off all this debt come from?"



I literally mean the Fed cuts a check to the treasury for the balance of its profit, about $90 billion last year. The Fed has zero say in how that money is spent--it's sitting in the treasury. I don't understand how you can possibly maintain that this doesn't occur when it happens every single year. Talk about naive and false...http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/15/us-usa-fed-financials-idUSBRE92E0QV20130315.
correct


See, if you understood the money multiplier you wouldn't say something so ignorant. First of all, an individual bank can't just turn $10 into $90 unless the money is lent out and deposited into exactly the same bank by every borrower and depositor. Obviously that's not reality. When you deposit $100 into Bank of America and it lends $90 to me, I deposit the cash in Chase. Chase can then lend $81 to Ben Bernanke, who deposits it in Citi. Citi can then lend $72.90 to Obama, who deposits it somewhere else and keeps the cycle going for another 200 or so iterations. Clearly an individual bank can't just create $90 from a $10 deposit with an accounting entry and do whatever it wants with the cash--it has no cash from this process, only sets of reciprocal obligations, and the credit expansion is systemic, not specific to individual institutions. This is why banks with $1 trillion in deposits don't have $10 trillion in loans outstanding.
Where is that interest coming from again?




. If you're suggesting the Fed funds a lot of the government's borrowing, that's not even true. Are you suggesting the government is lying about how much of the federal debt the Fed owns?
???????????????????Boggles mind*********************

The Fed is the single LARGEST holder of US debt in all of history EVER!! No central bank has ever held as much debt as the US Fed currently holds. You think China holds a lot of US debt? They are #1 foreign debtor after all with a whopping $949 Billion in US debt. That is nothing compared to the $1,696,691,000,000 that the Fed owns.

The Fed funds 80% of all government spending.

Taxes fund 0% of government spending.

As far as banks not lending out as much as they take in deposits is true.

Lets take JP Morgan for example.

$1.13 Trillion in deposits, only $400 Billion loaned out. http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/05/21/chart-of-the-day-jp-morgans-excess-deposits/
Alot of this excess deposit base is sitting with the Fed earning interest ( At US Taxpayer Expense)

Sounds ok though, at least its a reasonable ratio of debt to assets right?

I wonder how much exposure JP Morgan has to options and such? I know banks take customer deposits and use it to make bets on the stock market, after all Glass Steagal is long gone.

$70 trillion.

That's how much they have on the line.

A year of World GDP

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-29/728-trillion-presenting-bank-biggest-derivative-exposure-world-hint-not-jpmorgan

So 1.13 $Trillion in deposits, $70 Trillion in derivative bets.

If you got a monthly paycheck of $4,000, would you make $28,000 bets each month in Vegas?
 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
No way a US sale of 400 tons of gold to S Africa could make the paper markets react.

Just like removing 25% of the US Silver production actually had prices going DOWN.

The worse the earnings of companies are, the higher the markets go up.

We live in Bizarro world, where up is down, left is right.
The markets are waiting to see what's potentially (re)exported this month before they react.

Some are claiming it's the Rand Refinery simply refining gold for elsewhere, some are saying Kruggerand demand is so high it's for that, so who knows.

What I took as important from the story was the rapidly diminishing capacity of the domestic South African mines, they're a huge exporter/trader/lover of the shiny yellow stuff.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
ask yourself this. "Where does the interest used to pay off all this debt come from?"
For a business loan, from the business. If you borrowed a million dollars to buy farm equipment that increases your productivity, the interest comes from the additional crops. For a consumer loan, from wages.

???????????????????Boggles mind*********************

The Fed is the single LARGEST holder of US debt in all of history EVER!! No central bank has ever held as much debt as the US Fed currently holds. You think China holds a lot of US debt? They are #1 foreign debtor after all with a whopping $949 Billion in US debt. That is nothing compared to the $1,696,691,000,000 that the Fed owns.
Here we go again with the false and naive. The Social Security Trust Fund is the largest holder of US debt "in all of history EVER!!" Presuming your $1.7 trillion figure for the Fed is correct, that's about 10% of the national debt; the other 90% is held by everyone else. Based on your own numbers the claim you made previously is ridiculous.

The Fed funds 80% of all government spending.
How are you figuring that?

Taxes fund 0% of government spending.
Again, how are you figuring this? The 2013 budget is $3.8 trillion and the projected deficit for the year is below $700 billion. If only $700 billion is being borrowed, where does the other $3.1 trillion come from?


As far as banks not lending out as much as they take in deposits is true.

Lets take JP Morgan for example.

$1.13 Trillion in deposits, only $400 Billion loaned out. http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/05/21/chart-of-the-day-jp-morgans-excess-deposits/
Alot of this excess deposit base is sitting with the Fed earning interest ( At US Taxpayer Expense)
You've got that reversed. They have $700 billion loaned out and $400 billion in reserves (according to your own article). Assuming that $400 billion is sitting at the Fed collecting interest, the rate is 0.25%, which means Chase is collecting a whopping $1 billion a year. Considering that Chase made $21 billion last year, they must be ecstatic that 33% of their deposits are yielding a mere 5% of that profit while the other 67% of deposits are yielding the remaining 95%.

Sounds ok though, at least its a reasonable ratio of debt to assets right?

I wonder how much exposure JP Morgan has to options and such? I know banks take customer deposits and use it to make bets on the stock market, after all Glass Steagal is long gone.

$70 trillion.

That's how much they have on the line.

A year of World GDP

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-29/728-trillion-presenting-bank-biggest-derivative-exposure-world-hint-not-jpmorgan

So 1.13 $Trillion in deposits, $70 Trillion in derivative bets.

If you got a monthly paycheck of $4,000, would you make $28,000 bets each month in Vegas?
$70 trillion is the face value of the derivative contracts, not at all representative of how much "they have on the line." The actual amount at risk, once you've peeled all the hedges back and subtracted all the contracts that directly cancel each other out, is a tiny fraction of that value. You already know that, so why are you pretending to be clueless when you're otherwise touting your finance degree?

Indeed, your link has the actual numbers for Deutsche Bank: with $72.8 trillion in face value derivative exposure, only 20.3 billion euros is actually at risk.
 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
For a business loan, from the business. If you borrowed a million dollars to buy farm equipment that increases your productivity, the interest comes from the additional crops. For a consumer loan, from wages.



Here we go again with the false and naive. The Social Security Trust Fund is the largest holder of US debt "in all of history EVER!!" Presuming your $1.7 trillion figure for the Fed is correct, that's about 10% of the national debt; the other 90% is held by everyone else. Based on your own numbers the claim you made previously is ridiculous.



How are you figuring that?



Again, how are you figuring this? The 2013 budget is $3.8 trillion and the projected deficit for the year is below $700 billion. If only $700 billion is being borrowed, where does the other $3.1 trillion come from?




You've got that reversed. They have $700 billion loaned out and $400 billion in reserves (according to your own article). Assuming that $400 billion is sitting at the Fed collecting interest, the rate is 0.25%, which means Chase is collecting a whopping $1 billion a year. Considering that Chase made $21 billion last year, they must be ecstatic that 33% of their deposits are yielding a mere 5% of that profit while the other 67% of deposits are yielding the remaining 95%.



$70 trillion is the face value of the derivative contracts, not at all representative of how much "they have on the line." The actual amount at risk, once you've peeled all the hedges back and subtracted all the contracts that directly cancel each other out, is a tiny fraction of that value. You already know that, so why are you pretending to be clueless when you're otherwise touting your finance degree?
You don't seem to understand the concept of money. (Edit: read "fiat currency")

If I make 100 Harredollars and loan them to you at 2%...how can you repay the loan? Who HAS to work for the money to pay back said unrepayable loan?

Who has to keep borrowing Harredollars from me (at interest) simply to stay afloat?


Do I need to fill in all the middle bits that happen which eventually topple the currency/economy dependent on it?


What's worth more then? Your supposed bank balance or 1kg of (whatever precious metal)?


Can it be simplified (possibly greatly oversimplified) anymore for you than that?
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
There it is, now we're getting somewhere.....The Congress is charged with maintaining the value, which means responsible spending on their part, they have pawned this duty off on the Fed so that they may be irresponsible and claim ignorance of the system because it's too complicated and that's the Feds job....fed and congress get to play the blame game with each other when shit goes bad.....all the while the Fed gets to play its "private entity" card when Congress really wants a full audit........like a teenager with a credit card trying to explain the huge balance......
Congress pawned its duty to spend responsibly off on the Fed? The Fed has nothing to do with how Congress appropriates money.

I'm still waiting for you to reveal who's going to conduct your magic audit. You don't trust the government or private industry to do it, since they're the ones presently auditing the Fed, so who's going to do it?
 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
Congress pawned its duty to spend responsibly off on the Fed? The Fed has nothing to do with how Congress appropriates money.

I'm still waiting for you to reveal who's going to conduct your magic audit. You don't trust the government or private industry to do it, since they're the ones presently auditing the Fed, so who's going to do it?
You've got it backwards bro, the easy money "there's always more" promotes idiotic spending, thus the Fed encourages stupid spending.

Its a circle jerk, congress blames the Fed, Fed blames congress...neither really give a fuck cos they're just making as much dinero (then acquiring assets, etc) as possible so when they quit they don't have to give a fuck, they've already got theirs.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
You don't seem to understand the concept of money. (Edit: read "fiat currency")

If I make 100 Harredollars and loan them to you at 2%...how can you repay the loan? Who HAS to work for the money to pay back said unrepayable loan?

Who has to keep borrowing Harredollars from me (at interest) simply to stay afloat?
Why is the loan not repayable? I repay it by producing value, and I don't need to borrow from you to stay afloat.

Do I need to fill in all the middle bits that happen which eventually topple the currency/economy dependent on it?

What's worth more then? Your supposed bank balance or 1kg of (whatever precious metal)?
Your contingency requires a systemic collapse that hasn't occurred in the last 100 years. That should reflect well on the stability of the system. What if the contingency never occurs?
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
You've got it backwards bro, the easy money "there's always more" promotes idiotic spending, thus the Fed encourages stupid spending.

Its a circle jerk, congress blames the Fed, Fed blames congress...neither really give a fuck cos they're just making as much dinero (then acquiring assets, etc) as possible so when they quit they don't have to give a fuck, they've already got theirs.
It makes no sense to blame the Fed when they hold a relatively tiny portion of the debt. The federal government itself is the biggest holder of federal government debt through the Social Security Trust Fund, so doesn't that mean Congress is funding itself? Regardless, whenever the treasury auctions new debt, there's huge demand for it (from investors, not the Fed). So long as the government is lending itself money and investors are willing to buy US government debt, I don't think Congress will see a problem with its insane spending.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
Congress pawned its duty to spend responsibly off on the Fed? The Fed has nothing to do with how Congress appropriates money.

I'm still waiting for you to reveal who's going to conduct your magic audit. You don't trust the government or private industry to do it, since they're the ones presently auditing the Fed, so who's going to do it?
Lol my magic audit.....
you are nitpicking...yes they are technically audited but not in regards to their discount window..
not in regards to foreign transactions either....how can you audit a house without unlocking every door to every room...you can say you did, but you didn't.....guess that's why it is only a quasi-government bank.

they pawned off money management to the Fed which allows them to borrow without public approval.

Me and you are butting heads on ideologies, plain and simple. My gold and silver protect me from having other ideologies forced on me by those that claim they know better and need my money (hard work) to fund their practices......a luxury paper does not afford because participation condones those practices.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
For a business loan, from the business. If you borrowed a million dollars to buy farm equipment that increases your productivity, the interest comes from the additional crops. For a consumer loan, from wages.
What are you smoking? You nor ANYONE other than the fed or mint can create money, Now where does the interest to pay the loans come from?

Figure it out smart guy.



Here we go again with the false and naive. The Social Security Trust Fund is the largest holder of US debt "in all of history EVER!!" Presuming your $1.7 trillion figure for the Fed is correct, that's about 10% of the national debt; the other 90% is held by everyone else. Based on your own numbers the claim you made previously is ridiculous.
I wasn't aware that the US SS system was considered an entity. But I guess in a way you are correct about that and just a bit more than 100% wrong about
If you're suggesting the Fed funds a lot of the government's borrowing, that's not even true.

It is true, 100% true, that fact that you deny it being true just says you are dismissive of anything that does not fit your preconceived notions. Cognitive dissonance.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/29880401/page/16




How are you figuring that?
At the close of business on Jan. 2, the Federal Reserve had owned $1.661 trillion in U.S. Treasury securities. By the close of business on Feb. 6, it owned $1.7172 trillion—an increase of $51.1 billion for the calendar year.
Thus, the Federal Reserve’s purchases of U.S. government debt in this calendar year have exceeded the Treasury’s net debt issues by about $3.9 billion.

........http://cnsnews.com/news/article/fed-has-bought-more-us-gov-t-debt-year-treasury-has-issued

Oops more than 100%.





Again, how are you figuring this? The 2013 budget is $3.8 trillion and the projected deficit for the year is below $700 billion. If only $700 billion is being borrowed, where does the other $3.1 trillion come from?
Budget? There is no budget. we have not had a budget for years and years now. LOL don't you pay attention to whats going on around you?

If you owe more per year than you take in (Taxes) then all your money is going to pay for the debt, not the expenses. Simple 3rd grade economics.





You've got that reversed. They have $700 billion loaned out and $400 billion in reserves (according to your own article). Assuming that $400 billion is sitting at the Fed collecting interest, the rate is 0.25%, which means Chase is collecting a whopping $1 billion a year. Considering that Chase made $21 billion last year, they must be ecstatic that 33% of their deposits are yielding a mere 5% of that profit while the other 67% of deposits are yielding the remaining 95%.
I do not have it reversed, you are unable to read.

But then, in 2011, they shot straight back up — and now they’re (deposits) at a record high of $1.13 trillion, with JP Morgan having failed to lend out more than $400 billion of that amount.


$70 trillion is the face value of the derivative contracts, not at all representative of how much "they have on the line." The actual amount at risk, once you've peeled all the hedges back and subtracted all the contracts that directly cancel each other out, is a tiny fraction of that value. You already know that, so why are you pretending to be clueless when you're otherwise touting your finance degree?

Indeed, your link has the actual numbers for Deutsche Bank: with $72.8 trillion in face value derivative exposure, only 20.3 billion euros is actually at risk.
The link has the numbers for both JPM and DB, you just failed to see it.

Can you unwind derivative exposure at a whim? or do you have to let the contracts expire?

If you see that you are losing at poker in a high stakes game in Vegas, they let you call a time out and switch your cards with ones from the deck around until something you like comes up right?
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
Why is the loan not repayable? I repay it by producing value, and I don't need to borrow from you to stay afloat.
But you don't have another option to use besides Harradollars because I passed Legal Tender Laws...you could use a silver dollar (that is worth 22 Harradollars) to pay because it is legal tender, as well as lawful money, but I only accept this at the face value I set upon it...because I want to discourage the use of sound money I can't control.......

It's not repayable because harradollars have been deemed "legal tender" and harradollars are all that is accepted for tax payments...whatever value you produced will not pay taxes unless you convert it to harradollar form and those must be borrowed with interest.....get it yet??

Edit: Harredollar, capitalized....all hail counterfeit Harredollars.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Lol my magic audit.....
you are nitpicking...yes they are technically audited but not in regards to their discount window..
not in regards to foreign transactions either....how can you audit a house without unlocking every door to every room...you can say you did, but you didn't.....guess that's why it is only a quasi-government bank.

they pawned off money management to the Fed which allows them to borrow without public approval.

Me and you are butting heads on ideologies, plain and simple. My gold and silver protect me from having other ideologies forced on me by those that claim they know better and need my money (hard work) to fund their practices......a luxury paper does not afford because participation condones those practices.
You mean by the GAO. That doesn't mean the books aren't audited by private firms at two levels.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
What are you smoking? You nor ANYONE other than the fed or mint can create money, Now where does the interest to pay the loans come from?

Figure it out smart guy.
If you mean that we're starting with central bank money, the bank lends it out. People are paid, they buy things, the multiplier works, the buying and multiplying continues. When the asset created with the loan is earning a profit, interest payments are made.

I wasn't aware that the US SS system was considered an entity. But I guess in a way you are correct about that and just a bit more than 100% wrong about
It is true, 100% true, that fact that you deny it being true just says you are dismissive of anything that does not fit your preconceived notions. Cognitive dissonance.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/29880401/page/16
I'm not just aimlessly sparring with you. I welcome you to prove your case. Whenever I write a post, I'm genuinely thinking the issue through, not just spitting out an ideological retort. I researched it myself; I spent an hour building the Excel spreadsheet in order to confirm it to myself; I considered whatever evidence was provided and sought to confirm or deny it. If you can identify the logical, mathematical, or factual reality, I have no choice but to embrace it.

Unfortunately, whatever excellent cases people could make about having a better monetary system, it tends to fall back on a few key themes: all the numbers are rigged, the banking cabal controls everything, and everyone is trying to screw you--you silly ignorant fool--over. When you deny all data, presume conspiracy based on the slightest slivers of possibility, and are thoroughly convinced that those evil fat cat bankers are inevitably out to fuck you, what meaningful discussion can be had? We might as well be arguing 9/11 truth.

If more people here would spend 10 minutes looking at a piece of data and considering it instead of immediately dismissing it on realizing that it's incompatible with preexisting belief, we might actually see some substantive points raised. I have no dog in any fight; I don't care if the Fed is evil, but you need to prove it, damn it. You cannot just rely on naked assertions and misleading tidbits drawn out of amateur monographs.

I'm curious, if you had cancer, would you choose conventional treatment or G. Edward Griffin's quack cure?

At the close of business on Jan. 2, the Federal Reserve had owned $1.661 trillion in U.S. Treasury securities. By the close of business on Feb. 6, it owned $1.7172 trillion—an increase of $51.1 billion for the calendar year.
Thus, the Federal Reserve’s purchases of U.S. government debt in this calendar year have exceeded the Treasury’s net debt issues by about $3.9 billion.

........http://cnsnews.com/news/article/fed-has-bought-more-us-gov-t-debt-year-treasury-has-issued

Oops more than 100%.
Is the Fed actually buying treasuries at the auctions, or are they just buying them off of bank balance sheets? It seems unclear (one article says the Fed bought more treasuries than the treasury issued in a period, implying they're coming off bank balance sheets; then that they'll be in short supply--but at the auction or in the market afterward?). I think it matters. If they are buying treasuries at the auctions, then yes, you could certainly say that the Fed is funding the federal deficit, since the Fed is crediting the treasury with new money. But if they're buying the things off bank balance sheets, they're not enabling the borrowing, just trading treasuries for cash.

But even if we say the Fed is funding the federal government's deficit, why does it matter? The Fed doesn't need to be in that role--your articles say treasuries were hugely oversubscribed. The Fed is buying treasuries in order to influence interest rates, not as a buyer of last resort in the falling deck of cards. Indeed, without the Fed's purchases, interest rates on those treasuries would be higher, so you would expect there to be even more foreign and private demand for them. While they own a chunk of the debt, they aren't actually enabling the borrowing to take place, since there would be lots of other buyers anyway.

Of course, your claim: "The Fed funds 80% of all government spending." For this to be true, the Fed would have to buy $3 trillion in treasuries every year. They own about half that much right now after several years.

Budget? There is no budget. we have not had a budget for years and years now. LOL don't you pay attention to whats going on around you?

If you owe more per year than you take in (Taxes) then all your money is going to pay for the debt, not the expenses. Simple 3rd grade economics.
The fact that Congress hasn't actually passed a budget doesn't mean that there aren't appropriations bills or that the government isn't running on a budget. It is. If you don't want to call the federal spending in 2013 the "2013 budget," fine, but that's not going to change the fact that the money will be spent.

This was your exact claim: "Taxes fund 0% of government spending." If government spending is $3.8 trillion and receipts are $3.1 trillion, taxes fund 81.5% of government spending and debt only funds 18.5% of government spending.

I do not have it reversed, you are unable to read.
You really need to stop saying that when it was you who were unable to read.

"But then, in 2011, they shot straight back up — and now they’re (deposits) at a record high of $1.13 trillion, with JP Morgan having failed to lend out more than $400 billion of that amount." This sentence says that JPMorgan hasn't lend out $400 billion of the $1.13 trillion, which must mean that they have lent out $1.13 trillion - $400 billion.

The link has the numbers for both JPM and DB, you just failed to see it.

Can you unwind derivative exposure at a whim? or do you have to let the contracts expire?

If you see that you are losing at poker in a high stakes game in Vegas, they let you call a time out and switch your cards with ones from the deck around until something you like comes up right?
Don't you think the fact that they're holding derivatives worth a face value of $70 trillion with only $20 billion at risk suggests that they're already holding all of the cards?
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
But you don't have another option to use besides Harradollars because I passed Legal Tender Laws...you could use a silver dollar (that is worth 22 Harradollars) to pay because it is legal tender, as well as lawful money, but I only accept this at the face value I set upon it...because I want to discourage the use of sound money I can't control.......

It's not repayable because harradollars have been deemed "legal tender" and harradollars are all that is accepted for tax payments...whatever value you produced will not pay taxes unless you convert it to harradollar form and those must be borrowed with interest.....get it yet??

Edit: Harredollar, capitalized....all hail counterfeit Harredollars.
Why would it have to be borrowed with interest? What if you're paid in dollars (as an individual or a business)? Your revenue is what you use to make interest payments, and you aren't borrowing it. It's yours.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
Why would it have to be borrowed with interest? What if you're paid in dollars (as an individual or a business)? Your revenue is what you use to make interest payments, and you aren't borrowing it. It's yours.
Because whomever paid you borrowed them at interest to pay you.

Because I, the one that passed Legal Tender Laws, borrow Harredollars into existence by selling Treasury bonds to Harredollar Central, which they easily afforded because I gave them permission to print Legal Tender at their discretion... reason HCB bought them is because noone else would.

A systemic collapse hasn't happened in the last 100 years because my credit is still good with the bank I gave permission to Counterfeit my Legal Tender.
 

bwest

Well-Known Member
Who the fuck works 10 hour days?!

You're clearly a bullshitter or you've a shit job.
My last two week paycheck was for 154 hours. I farm so your ass can eat. That's who works ten plus hours.
And it is not a shitty job. I'm seeding with a 535 hp tractor with climate control, killer stereo with sub, and the gps drives. So, what I want to know is, what kind of people are so lazy they can't imagine working 10 hour days?

Ps. The last waitress you didn't tip, she probably works 10 hour days.
The guy who picks up your garbage probably works ten hour days.
The guy you call to fix your cable probably works ten hour days.
The guy you call when a pipe breaks in your home probably works ten hour days.
I guess you forgot about people that work in construction, firemen, police, doctors, nurses, babysitters,
line workers, and many more I wont list because I think you get the picture now. And if you don't, just go back to your cubicle, fire up the computer, and play solitare, or go on facebook or whatever it is office people do.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Because whomever paid you borrowed them at interest to pay you.

Because I, the one that passed Legal Tender Laws, borrow Harredollars into existence by selling Treasury bonds to Harredollar Central, which they easily afforded because I gave them permission to print Legal Tender at their discretion... reason HCB bought them is because noone else would.

A systemic collapse hasn't happened in the last 100 years because my credit is still good with the bank I gave permission to Counterfeit my Legal Tender.
Why does that mean the loan isn't repayable? Eventually all the loans are indeed paid off, including interest.

Not that I actually think it's that simple, that every dollar is borrowed. You can put money into circulation by buying assets, and then the money is never borrowed. For example, when you actually launch this new currency the old currency must be convertible into it. When the treasury/central bank were direct buyers of gold and silver, all of that currency was introduced without debt.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
I am thinking because notes are debt instruments, a promise to pay. It's existence represents a debt, does it not? It only seemed there was no debt in the introduction.

How bout this.......why not just print notes drawn on the nation with out the bank? While still fiat they would carry no interest...why go the extra step?
 
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